Side arm of Indian Armed forces

[Ranjeet Singh]

Any idea Folks..

Someone here asked me this and I didn't kow

Regards
Ranjeet

[mehulkamdar]

Ranjeet,

It is currently the Glock 17. Earlier it was the CZ 75 and before that the Browning HP 35. The GoI has also imported some Glock 18s for VIP security units.

I know for a fact that when the Glocks were ordered, there was considerable resistance from the Army as it had not been consulted on this purchase by the former government. But, all of a sudden when 100,000 pistols landed in the country, they could not be given away and the Army was "persuaded" (read "compelled") to accept them.

Mehul

[penpusher]

There are still a lot of IOF made copies of the HP 35 with the army.They are also using Berettas including the Brigadier version( all in 9mm para).The CZ was not really issued in very large no's ,I think.What a logistical nightmare.

Take care,
penpusher

[Sakobav]

Mehul

Answer I got from some one in army was side issue is 9mm carbine/Ak or INSAS these days. Officer told me maybe only senior guys have pistols as side arm. I also dont recall seeing pistols holsetered by an officer in pictures these days.
Glocks are again probably issued to elite units and maybe air force pilots have them as side weapons. There was a picture of lady chopper pilot with AK or INSAS.
In addition, remember reading an article when Arun Nehru tried going for CZ 75 as standard side arm for all police and army. It would have been a great choice.

Glock and CZ both are great pistols They just need to standardize.logistics nightmare well look at the airforce jet fleet ..some never learn

regards

[mundaire]

In addition, remember reading an article when Arun Nehru tried going for CZ 75 as standard side arm for all police and army. It would have been a great choice.

This must have been quite some time back... Arun Nehru has been in the political wilderness for 'most 15 years now.

A Glock in .40 S&W would have been an excellent choice...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[eljefe]

Glock in 40?
What do we then do with a couple of million half assed 9mm rounds in stock! Why not in 45?
Yeah, Bharat Dynamics turned out the Browning HP clones in 9.Iffy accuracy,painted finish-no hot or cold bluing... but worked...
I have seen a Noida police Sub inpector loaded for bear with a Glock 17.I dont think they went to many elite units at this rate.Also have seen a Walther P7M13 with a couple of cops, again, Sub inspector level.
poor poor gunsmith

[eljefe]

Abhijeet,
My take is, the 'officer armed with a sidearm' concept is going,as is in many armies.Every one wants to knock out the bad guy as far away and as soon as possible...Good for the soldier,maybe it will be good if the pistol is issued as a standard sidearm to all combatants , BESIDES the rifle/carbine.
Many officers are switching to the ak/insas series-dont know if it is orders 'from on high' or personal choice-but , indeed a good choice
Best
Axx
PS-when are you collecting the the beer keg I owe you?

[mundaire]

Asif,

I was thinking along the lines of 9mm having a reputation of being a tad underpowered... plus if the buggers replace the 9mm with the .40 S&W, (hopefully) they might reclassify it as NPB and hundreds of thousands of ex-service guns just might find their way into the civilian market via military surplus!

The .45 ACP is undoubtedly an excellent choice as well...

Am afraid I can't pretend to know too much about military tactics and whether or not all ranks need to be issued a side arm to supplement their long guns is something that maybe someone with enough "field" experience can accurately comment on.

Beer keg!! You going the Patiala route too!!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[eljefe]

Abhijeet,
Cant help the Patiala attitude-Am on IFG now and with penpusher around, its a positive reinforcement!!Size matters , what/
That is VERY wishful thinking, but with ignorant babu's running the show, I wouldnt be surprised if the 9 goes the way of the 410 musket and stays banned.The 223 was made and blooded in Vietnam, against smaller made, undernourished Viet Cong soldiers, and it didnt work...relived again / demonstrated amply in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Now our ballisticians, in all their wisdom, have found it fit to under power a varmint cartridge- for export, or because they are scared that the metallurgy is same as the tank barrels and will start cracking receivers etc if used with standard load?
And we want to have a moon shot!
Somebody please wake up these rip van winkles-we might be going back to black powder soon , at this rate!
Best
Axx

[penpusher]

Another thing,most of the Russian jets came with 9mm Makarov pistols as standard accessory.That's what you will find the IAF pilots carrying in most cases.Did see a photo of a woman helicopter pilot with an AK during the Kargil conflict.

Take care,
penpusher

[dev]

I also did a double take and almost went intoa trance when I saw Glock 17 holstered in a very ordinary looking cops waist. My gawd the way my boots got wet with saliva.
I still remember the tiny group a glock shot some 16 years ago ina hoosier range. Ofcourse that was after we had burned some rounds with the 92F.
I love the way all our Hindi movie cops and bad guys always have a 92F.

dEV

[pwm]

if your army grab the glock you can be lucky, thats technoligy for the 21. century and the 9mm para pistol will see military servive for the next 100 years, believe me.
not allone all the pistols, submachine guns and ammo around, its also fact that a sidearm is more a symbol than a weapon you realy need.

[TC]

Friends I have done some study on this. Let me share my exprience.
Only the para commandos of the army, marcos (marine commandos), NSG, SPG and anti-terroist units of all state and central paramilitary forces are being issued Glocks --- BUT only in phases. Most state police and paramilitary units still use the GP35 or its Indian clones.

Beside the Glock, there has been some unplanned purchase of Walthers and Heckler and Koch by individual state home departments out of Central grants for modernisation. This was triggered by terrorist attacks and Naxalite problem.

Sadly there is hardly any existance of the real 92 F in any police force or even the military. This is a fact.

Infantry does not believe in arming its soldiers and even officers with handguns. I have rarely seen any officer wearing a pistol - even in Uri and Poonch- sectors I visited during unrest. Everybody carries an assault rifle.

To show you how confusing a police arsenal can look like I will give you the example of West Bengal which, in recent times has seen terrorist attacks ( the shootout at American Centre by Dawod aides), the only Tada case beside Mumbai (a huge charge of explosives took 79 lives in Kolkata in 1992) and the recent spate of violence by Naxalites, Kamtapuris and terroists crossing across Nepal and Bangladesh.

The police constables are armed with .303 enfield rifles..... which on reaching the bell mouth stage are converted to 410 muskets.

Their next fearsome weapon in Mark 1 Sten from the days of the Raj.....unstable and unserviced...

Next fear factor is IOF made clones of Sterling SMG...the carbine as they call it.

Handguns come down to .38 Webley and Scotts, Colt 1917 and for the lucky ones, Smiths of later inport.

When it comes to anti terorist units and security for the chief minister ----
the weapons change to Browning or IOF clones, Glocks, AK 47 or AK 74 of army surplus, Insas and even some 7.62 SLR.

Thats not all, there are weapons for special emergencies---- I know because I had the opportunity --- snub nose 38s and .32 Skorpion machine pistols !!!! Thats right.

Now, West Bengal is supposed to be one of the "poor" states. Think what politicians and bureaucrats in Maharashtra, Delhi, Gujarat, Andhra Pradesh might have done.

So long, feeling sleepy.

TC

[mehulkamdar]

Sadly there is hardly any existance of the real 92 F in any police force or even the military. This is a fact.
TC

Having shot the Beretta 92 F, FS etc to quite some extent, I don't understand what is sad about their not being available in India. Time was when I thought I was unique in disliking them but it turns out that US soldiers serving In Iraq have been vocal about disliking them and have forced a reconsideration of the official sidearm of the US armed forces. Special Ops units went to a Heckler und Koch 45 a long time ago over here.

I hope the GoI does not decide to buy this complete piece of crap that got selected only because the Italians insisted on the US buying it in return for permitting US nuclear weapons to be based in Italy during the dying years of the cold war.

Mehul Kamdar

[penpusher]

Mehul,

The Beretta would be a vast improvement on the current IOF junk.H&K USP would cost on the higher side.The average Indian politician does not believe in spending a lot on the weaponary of the Indian Jawan whom,at the same time ,he/she/it expects to give his life willingly for the country.

The govt. seems to be taken in by shinny missiles that the DRDO promised a long time ago but has not been able to deliver till date.So far the DRDO's surface to air missile has not hit a target and now they claim that they have intercepted one surface to surface missile with another

OT but I remember that sometime in 1988-89 a party of the Haryana police pursuing some Khalistani militants entered Punjab and there was an encounter bet. this party and the militants(a real one,for a change).All the weapons with the Haryana police men jammed or malfunctioned leading to tragic consequences for some of the cops.

penpusher