Smith & Wesson 327

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Vikram
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Smith & Wesson 327

Post by Vikram » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:07 pm

(I know fully well that we are not going to get it in India,except in certain circumstances like TR.But, that should not stop us from learning about the good stuff around.)

This bad boy packs an eight round cylinder and chambered for .357 Magnum.

The S&W 327

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/ ... rrorView_Y

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Review:

http://www.humanevents.com/2010/12/14/s ... nd-wonder/
The unique aesthetics of the S&W Performance Center’s Model 327 revolver immediately attract attention on dealers’ shelves. It shocks the visual senses. First, the large-frame chassis combines with two-inch barrel sports Cocobolo wood round butt finger groove grips from Ahrends. To give the reader a sense of scale, the frame is derived from the Model 29 .44 Magnum N-frame. The oversized titanium cylinder holding eight rounds of .357 Magnum is another clue that something out of the ordinary is going on. The proprietary S&W barrel lock nut, which mates the stainless steel barrel insert to barrel shroud, is another anomaly. Finally, the combination of three different manufacturing materials–alloy frame, stainless steel barrel, and titanium cylinder and barrel shroud–confirms that the Model 327 is not your ordinary revolver.

Comparing the Model 327 to snubby revolvers is inevitable, but misplaced in my opinion. The Model 327 is certainly not going to fit in your front pants pocket, and should not be thought of as a snubby on steroids. The S&W 327 is a primary concealed carry handgun, not a backup weapon.

In choosing a carry handgun, practitioners must consider size, weight, capacity, and cartridge potency. The one trait that can not be compromised is reliability. Revolver aficionados always lay claim to reliability as a hallmark feature. With the eight-shot .357 Magnum Model 327, revolver lovers have a weapon featuring the same capacity as the legendary 1911 pistol. In a nutshell, some individuals are just more comfortable carrying a revolver. This can be based on several threads of reasoning: prior training and familiarity with revolvers, inherent reliability and simplicity compared to semi-automatics, no external controls necessary to get a revolver into action, ability to better manage trigger control with a double-action revolver, and greater physical requirements of operating an automatic’s slide compared to a revolver’s operations. The S&W Model 327 magnifies all of the revolver’s positive traits and minimizes revolver weaknesses such as capacity and size.

The S&W Model 327′s eight-round capacity gives a 33 percent increase in firepower over six-holed revolver cylinders. The .357 Magnum cartridge represents the near-perfect combination of controllability, power, accuracy, and lethality in a pistol cartridge. I challenge the reader to add up the foot pounds (ft/lbs) of energy stored in the Model 327′s cylinder and compare it to the number of 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP rounds required to equal that amount of energy. Eight, 125-gr .357 Magnum rounds combine for 4,992 ft/lbs of energy. To equal this you need 15 rounds of 9mm, 11 rounds of .40 S&W, and 13 rounds of .45 ACP. This is not a scientific study, but I think it gets my point across.

The inclusion of moon clips with the Model 327 shows the S&W Performance Center’s attention to detail. The ability to use either moon clips or regular loading methods is a feature reserved for high end pistolsmith work. The moon clips greatly reduce reload times and make it more convenient to carry extra ammunition. Other S&W Performance Center tweaks found in the Model 327 include the Lothar-Walther custom barrel featuring polished button rifling. The custom barrel is secured inside the titanium barrel shroud by a special lock nut system used by S&W. A Wolff mainspring and traditional sear ensure a smooth double action trigger.

The single action trigger measured a crisp 3.5 lbs with no creep, using a RCBS trigger gauge. Range testing utilized Black Hills Ammunition, Winchester, Hornady, and Federal ammunition. Both .38 Special and .357 Magnum loads were used with bullet weights of 125 gr, 140 gr, and 158 gr loads. A huge benefit for anyone who carries a .357 Magnum revolver is the ability to practice with .38 Special loads; they are more economical and not as harsh in terms of recoil and muzzle blast as the magnum loads. The importance of this is not something to be underestimated. I practice with .38 Special rounds when I want to work on shooting fundamentals without wrestling with the .357′s full power recoil and muzzle blast. Practice with .38 Special ammunition aids in building confidence, and exposes recoil-induced bad habits.

My two adolescent sons had no problems controlling the 21 ounce Model 327 when firing .38 Special loads. The large-frame grip size deserves much of the credit for this. Full power .357 Magnum loads proved problematic and uncomfortable for them. The two-inch barreled Model 327 does cause quite a stir when shooting .357 Magnum loads, with the 125 gr varieties seemingly producing more muzzle flash and blast than the heavier bullet loads. I found the two inch barrel more than adequate for a personal defense revolver. A longer barrel would only have diminishing returns by increasing weight and complicating concealability without contributing much more to the potency of the weapon.

Range evaluation consisted of a test regimen of engaging multiple steel and paper targets, firing while moving, reloading from cover, and engaging targets from behind barricades. The moon clips proved a definite advantage in reloading during these scenarios. I did not bench rest the S&W Model 327, as I feel this is worthless information for a handgun with a two inch barrel. The Model 327 with its fixed rear sight and red front ramp proved more than capable of ringing steel targets 25 yards away. In fact, when having the time to deliberately aim and fire, steel man targets more than 100 yards away were not safe. That is more than enough accuracy for a personal defense handgun. One quirk I discovered with the S&W Model 327 is that empties did not fall free from the cylinder no matter how hard the ejector rod is struck. Close scrutiny determined that the ejector rod could not have been made any longer to remedy the problem. I do not want to make too big of a deal of this, because a quick swipe of the hand dropped the cases free before sliding in another eights rounds via moon clip.

Another side note to my range experience is that after thousands of rounds fired through automatic handguns, I quickly relearned that revolvers require a slightly different firing grip. Thumbs ahead do not work well next to a revolver’s cylinder. Thumbs need to be curled inward toward the frame. This lesson was learned early in nearly 500 rounds fired during numerous range visits.
The S&W Model 327 is a viable personal defense handgun that levels the playing field between revolvers and semi-automatic handguns. The Model 327 is no small snubby and should be thought of as an equal to the 1911 and high capacity polymer handguns. Some will not abandon the classic 1911, while others will not forego the high capacity polymer frames. As with most things related to firearms, handgun selection is a personal decision often based more on intuition than fact based reasoning. Eight rounds of .357 Magnum in a reasonably sized, light weight, reliable package will bring many handgunners back to the revolver fold. It is a viable concealed carry firearm for people looking for something more than a small .38 Special revolver, and something less complicated than a large semi-auto pistol.
It ain’t over ’til it’s over! "Rocky,Rocky,Rocky....."

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Re: Smith & Wesson 327

Post by dr.jayakumar » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:57 pm

vikram thanks.
this snub is very very compact,no poking barrel, should be a good ccw for you all.looks like you might lay your hands on them soon.
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Re: Smith & Wesson 327

Post by timmy » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:40 pm

I thought about this for awhile, but I have to call "BS" on this article. That is a shame, because this appears to be a very interesting handgun.
I challenge the reader to add up the foot pounds (ft/lbs) of energy stored in the Model 327′s cylinder and compare it to the number of 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP rounds required to equal that amount of energy. Eight, 125-gr .357 Magnum rounds combine for 4,992 ft/lbs of energy. To equal this you need 15 rounds of 9mm, 11 rounds of .40 S&W, and 13 rounds of .45 ACP. This is not a scientific study, but I think it gets my point across.
I took up the author's challenge. Checking out this well-known site:

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

I used 1000 f/s as a representative velocity for a 125 gr bullet out of a 2" barrel. Using this calculator (there are many on line):

http://www.firearmexpertwitness.com/cus ... lcnrg.html

I come up with a bullet muzzle energy of about 280 ft-lbs. just for the record, this is much closer to .380 ACP territory than it is to 9mm or 45 ACP ballistics, and is only just above what I get from my 2" barrel .38 Special -- 230 ft-lbs.

So when I do the math, 8 rounds times 280 ft-lbs calculates as 2240 ft-lbs total, far less than the author states and less than the handguns to which he is comparing.
In choosing a carry handgun, practitioners must consider size, weight, capacity, and cartridge potency. The one trait that can not be compromised is reliability. Revolver aficionados always lay claim to reliability as a hallmark feature.
Now, I have read all kinds of claims like this over the years up to the reading of this article. Most of the assumptions of the revolver's greater reliability over the semiauto pistol seem to come from gatherings of old geezers at the local old stove society. Claims of greater revolver mechanical simplicity obviously come from people who have never disassembled either kind of weapon.

So I will say this: Here is the test that the Army used to select a service pistol, resulting ie selection of the Colt 1911. The tests are clearly defined, and the Colt pistol, designed by John M Browning, passed these tests:

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-cont ... trials.pdf

I would hope that any more claims about the supposed superiority of reliability will be accompanied by the test results of the revolver/pistol in question, so that we may actually see whether the claims are true or not. Many semiautos, like the 1911 and the Hi Power, not only have test results to back them up, but decades (or, in the case of the 1911, a century) of hard use data, as well. When some rag author feels that his opinions and subjective feelings can counter hard data like this, I must be skeptical!
“Fanaticism consists of redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim.”

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Re: Smith & Wesson 327

Post by Vikram » Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:04 am

Well said,Timmy.Agree with you.

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Re: Smith & Wesson 327

Post by timmy » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:57 am

I like the gun, and I would like to shoot it. It would be fun if they made it in a long barrel target version (say, 8 inch barrel) as well. From the looks of things, the combination of alloy, titanium, and steel could be quite interesting. Maybe even some sort of high tech carbon fiber frame could be fun, too.

The idea has enough merit on its own; it doesn't need the overstatements of the author.

I wonder if they could even do this in a Dan Wesson style with interchangeable barrels?
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Re: Smith & Wesson 327

Post by xl_target » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:45 am

A pretty interesting article, Vikram. I always enjoy reading about guns, new or otherwise.
Thanks for posting it.

Well said Tim,
I've got actual chronographed figures of a factory 125 gr round out of a 2 inch Smith Scandium snubby.
I will have to look up the figures when I get home and post them on here.



As far as the different barrel lengths, I think you are correct, Tim.
I'd be willing to bet that this was done on purpose so other barrel sizes could be introduced a la Dan Wesson. I wonder if Dan Wesson's patents have expired?
The proprietary S&W barrel lock nut, which mates the stainless steel barrel insert to barrel shroud, is another anomaly
“Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense” — Winston Churchill, Oct 29, 1941

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Re: Smith & Wesson 327

Post by Raptor » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:59 am

well sir Timmy I am not a technically oriented person but about the age old 'revolver versus pistol ' debate from a very practical point of view- a revolver never jams...pistols do. Revolvers may misfire but the same applies to pistols too...a pistol will need to be 'cleared' with a revolver one just pulls the trigger to fire the next round. Although as you correctly pointed outa pistol delivers more punch over a greater distance a revolver delivers a punch when you need it to and in my book sir 'a friend in need is a friend indeed!' as far as the range is concerned , well most handgun fights ,when and if they do happen , happen at a realatively close range. For me as long as i knows how to field strip a gun and know what kinda round it fires and have a plently of those rounds with me, I'm happy! :D therefore here's to hoping that the debate remains forever academic. we dont need a gunfight to prove a point now, do we? ;). As far as your comments are concerned , I am certainly grateful and now stand better informed,however that is unlikely to change my view about wihch gun to carry.
p.s.
Totally unrealated -I hate plastic guns and to hell with all the glocks and steyrs and the bloody USP...a man who can't carry a KG or so of a real gun doesn't deserve to carry one :p
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Re: Smith & Wesson 327

Post by timmy » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:21 am

well sir Timmy I am not a technically oriented person but about the age old 'revolver versus pistol ' debate from a very practical point of view- a revolver never jams...pistols do.
Raptor, all I can say regarding your assertion that "a revolver never jams...pistols do" is that, as charitably and respectfully as I can put it -- is just plain wrong. I'm sorry, but I know better.
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Re: Smith & Wesson 327

Post by Raptor » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:14 am

in that case sir timmy i stand corrected but i say 'better the devil you know than the devil you don't' :D and thank you for being 'charitable' sir, i know it must be frustrating dealing with noobnuts like me ....i was not disputing your knowledge sir, just sharing mine and my knowledge is extremely limited....looking forward to learning a lot more from all you gentlemen out here..i'm here to learn, not to 'pose', and experience, as they say, is the greatest teacher of all! And that's something you have and I don't..so thank you sir! :D
BTW awesome stuff on the link you posted!
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Re: Smith & Wesson 327

Post by winnie_the_pooh » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:32 am

Raptor,

When a pistol jams,clearing the jam is a pretty simple process and you can do it yourself.

When a revolver jams,it is an oh shit! moment and you require a gunsmith

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Re: Smith & Wesson 327

Post by BowMan » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:28 pm

Vikram wrote:(I know fully well that we are not going to get it in India,except in certain circumstances like TR.But, that should not stop us from learning about the good stuff around.)
Mate you should not be posting such revolver porn in front in Indian audiences :wink:

I can see some reactions from tactical dudes about revolver jams. Well since this is an 8 shooter that's the only lame duck that can be brought up.

I guess this post is about a particular Revolver and it should be appreciated for being just that. As for the revolver vs semi auto discussion don't we have a separate thread (or threads) going already?!

Nice and informative post BTW.

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Re: Smith & Wesson 327

Post by BowMan » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:32 pm

timmy wrote:I come up with a bullet muzzle energy of about 280 ft-lbs. just for the record, this is much closer to .380 ACP territory than it is to 9mm or 45 ACP ballistics, and is only just above what I get from my 2" barrel .38 Special -- 230 ft-lbs.
Timmy I have come up with 306 ft-lbs of muzzle energy using same calculator!?

Bowman how did you come up with ME figures without muzzle velocity figures?

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Re: Smith & Wesson 327

Post by xl_target » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:59 pm

Tim,

Here are some of the figures that I looked up. These were chronographed by me.

Avg Velocity of a Remington 130 Flat point bullet in 38 Special out of a 1 7/8ths barreled S&W 360=727.93 fps (load 1 - 142 ft.lbs) and 838.67 fps (load 2 - 210 ft.lbs)
Avg velocity of a 125 gr. JSP bullet in a .357 Mag cartridge out of a 1 7/8ths barreled S&W 360= 1140.2 (factory load - 361 ft.lbs average ME)

Avg velocity - 115 Grain FTX (Hornady Critical Defense) in 9mm out of a 3.9" barrel= 1072 fps (293 ft lbs - factory load)
Avg velocity - 115 gr Rainier round nose in a SIG P225 in 9mm =1127.3 fps (324.65 ft lbs ME - light reload)
Avg velocity - 115 gr. Winchester White Box in a SIG P225 in 9mm= 1108.89 fps (314.17 ft lbs ME - factory load)

Avg ME - 124 gr XTP - .357 SIG in a SIG P226 = 585 ft lbs (load 1)
Avg ME - 230 gr .45 ACP Hornady TAP (+P) in a SIG P220 = 384 ft lbs (factory load)
Avg ME - 124 gr XTP - .357 SIG in a SIG P226 = 1467.33 fps (593.18 ft lbs ME - Hot Load!)

Avg ME - Remington .357 Mag 125 gr JSP in a 6" barreled S&W 686 = (684 ft lbs. ME - factory load)
Avg velocity - Hornady XTP 125 gr .357 mag bullet in a 6" barreled S&W 686 = 1592.44 fps (709 ft lbs - Hot Load!)
Avg velocity - 158 gr Federal Hydrashok in a 6" barreled S&W 686 = 1279 fps (580 ft lbs - Factory load)


The formula the I am using for ME:
((avg vel)x(avg vel)x(bullet weight in grains))/450240
“Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense” — Winston Churchill, Oct 29, 1941

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Re: Smith & Wesson 327

Post by The Doc » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:16 pm

dr.jayakumar wrote:this snub is very very compact,no poking barrel, should be a good ccw for you all.
The frame is derived from the Model 29 .44 Magnum N-frame, the over-sized titanium cylinder holds eight rounds of .357 Magnum. Even with that snub barrel, in the Indian scenario, it will be a difficult and certainly uncomfortable concealed carry.

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Re: Smith & Wesson 327

Post by winnie_the_pooh » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:18 pm

When some one talks of firepower,the image that it conjures up is that of a machinegun. Somehow the words, hand gun and firepower do not come to my mind at the same time.

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