Tips on Pistol Shooting

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airgun_novice
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Re: Tips on Pistol Shooting

Post by airgun_novice » Sat Oct 03, 2015 3:37 pm

Dear brihji/ upacharyaji/ gurudev/ and of course the dev :-)

One of the things I started in recent times was volume shooting (borrowed from volume testing of IT) to enforce the technique and I noticed that my shots (grouping) tends to shift. A shot here and there can be construed as stray or wrong shot placement or errors in execution. But when the entire set of 10 shots starts shifting, it baffles me. That I continue to have vertical displacement is accepted (by me) due to vision issues (diplopia). But I notice:

1. Two clear straight lines separated by about a ring or ring and half of distance and they are as parallel as those school lines I drew with Camlin box set while at school.

2. Sometimes a very tight group of seven or eight outta ten appears in center and then in the next set the same seems to have shifted to NW direction and then againin W (9 oclock) and eventually SW...

3. Sometimes I play with left right clicks just to see what happens - sometimes nothing and sometimes two clicks shift by as much as a ring

4. So then again after giving the clicks the shots appear to go where desired for a while and then shift back to "original" spot without contra clicks.

All this has raised my hackles. So insights and pointers are greatly appreciated.

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Re: Tips on Pistol Shooting

Post by brihacharan » Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:34 pm

Hi Amol,

Going through your post led me to wonder on the possible factors that could perhaps deny you the accuracy you desire.
A bit of research revealed a few pointers that you may have overlooked while shooting....these were given by Jock Elliot a renowned coach which I would like to share with you with the hope that it may benefit you!

HOW TO SHOOT AN AIR PISTOL ACCURATELY
http://www.crosman.com/how-to/how-to-sh ... accurately

If you’re shooting with iron sights, align the sights so that the front post is the same height as the rear blade and there is equal space on either side of the front sight as it floats in the notch in the rear sight. The entire “sight picture” should be over the center of your target.

Slide your trigger finger into the trigger guard and place your index finger on the trigger. If you air pistol has a heavy trigger, place your finger so that the trigger is caught in the joint between the tip and the next segment of your finger. This will give you enough leverage to pull the trigger. If your air pistol has a lighter trigger, place the fleshy part of your fingertip on the trigger. You may want to experiment to see which works best for you.

Now, while keeping the sights aligned on the target, pull your trigger finger straight back into the pistol grip. Try not to pull the pistol to one side as you pull the trigger - just relaxing the middle, ring, and little finger may help!
Good Luck!!!
Briha
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Re: Tips on Pistol Shooting

Post by AnandNair » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:46 pm

airgun_novice wrote:Dear brihji/ upacharyaji/ gurudev/ and of course the dev :-)
.................
.
Hello airgun_novice..If i may suggest.
Your shooting pattern suggests fatigue. volume testing does not apply to shooting as continuous shooting puts tremendous stress on your arms and eyes. therefore the shifting patterns.

the shot group in straight lines is indicative of jerking, either your shoulder in case of rifle or trigger finger in case of pistol. also do correct follow-through after the shots. do not take your eyes off the sight or lower your gun immediately after the shot is fired.

The stray wandering shots indicate incorrect sight alignment. try shooting few groups with correct sight alignment. the front sight perfectly aligned with the rear sight. only initial alignment with the POA, after that conc on the sight alignment. if possible shoot with your hand rested and see the result.
Some learn by reading. A few by observation. The rest of 'em have to pee on the electric fence.

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Re: Tips on Pistol Shooting

Post by airgun_novice » Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:28 pm

Dear Brihji,
Thank you very much for the crossman pointer - will retain the crossman in my crosshair henceforth. :-)

Dear Anand
Sorry, didn't mean to restrict the query only to the veterans stated, though it does look that way :-P

After going through your points, I noticed the following:

1. Yes there is a distinct buildup of stress (lactic acid ?) and possible bit of muscle burnout in the front portion of shoulder ball region. Plus the entire backside right of spine has become a bit heavy. I can feel it "raised" when I am sleeping on the floor on my back. Unfortunately, with Maha state shooting tournament just round the corner, did a bit of indiscretion by going overboard in prax. Even at the match I could feel the odd twitch at the back and a tremor in the hand beyond say 10-15 sec of hold and a "flick" of wrist when the shot released. I own and use the old FWB P34 which has a resounding clap of the hammer and noticeable recoil for a PCP AP . All these factors factored in to result in the bad performance factor. Yesterday and day before I ,paid visit to local Kerala Massage center and since have experienced significant reduction in stiffness and ache.

2. My follow through is indeed faulty and you have rightly indicated that the sights tend to lower immediately after shot release. It was my old flaw which I thought I had rectified but seems to have returned with vengeance. Will work on it.

3. I had did a bit of "work" on my AP and while re-seating the action in the grip, seems to have done something slightly wrong. The foresight appears a bit canted. Earlier it was canted a bit to the left and now it's canted a bit to the right. This coupled with a tad of misalignment around the release could be causing the odd flyer of the set. Paid for it with 4 shots in whites at the MSSC. :-(

Apart from the first set which was a washout, rallied to hold remainder of the 5 in 88-89 average with a significant last set. That was a big takeaway. :-) Now to put to good use the lessons and pointers learnt for the next week's West Zonals.

Thank you both for your invaluable inputs and the finger pointed in the right direction.

regs
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Re: Tips on Pistol Shooting

Post by AnandNair » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:39 pm

airgun_novice wrote:D
Dear Anand ....
After going through your points, I noticed the following:

1. Even at the match I could feel the odd twitch at the back and a tremor in the hand beyond say 10-15 sec of hold and a "flick" of wrist when the shot released.....

Have a look at this breathing chart and try following it. also see the correct trigger finger position. this position will help reduce shift in POA when squeezing trigger.
Image

Do not take the shot if your breathing gets labored. just lower the pistol and then start the aiming process again. also dont hold the pistol too tight. adapt the grip adjustment so that the pistol stays in your palms even if you open the fingers.

2. My follow through is indeed faulty ...... but seems to have returned with vengeance :- Dry practice is the answer to correct almost all shooting mistakes (my view). When you don't have to worry where the pellet is going, you can concentrate on the correct steps to follow including breathing and trigger operation. write down the steps you want to follow and repeat in your mind when dry practicing. (and you can do dry practice in your room)

3. The foresight appears a bit canted. Earlier it was canted a bit to the left and now it's canted a bit to the right :- Suggests that your pistol body is loose in the grips. open all screws holding the pistol grip and re-fit it after centering. if required shim it to ensure snug fit. Also ensure the barrel is fitted correctly.

Now to put to good use the lessons and pointers learnt for the next week's West Zonals :- Best of luck for the Zonals. The above breathing chart etc are just pointers. Dont try changing your shooting practice at the last moment if you are not sure of being able to adapt.
Some learn by reading. A few by observation. The rest of 'em have to pee on the electric fence.

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Re: Tips on Pistol Shooting

Post by Kazim » Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:59 pm

hi dear members i have a query last year i got qualified for prenationals scoring 355 in up state and then 353 in North zone so wasnt able to participate in nationals thus i keep practicing for this year's prenationals everything was going fine in practice sessions then i participated in recently concluded u.p state and then sportzcraft shooting championships scoring 344 consecutively first using 6 o clock hold and then center mass like the first time when i scored 355 but the scores doesn't changes instead no. of tens increases now i am very confused what kind of sight alignment should i use and one last thing my shooting arm have a tendency to move in up and down way thus scoring many 7 and 8s in upper or lower rings and sometimes one or two 6s too affecting overall score if someone have any cure for my problems please do provide it will be very helpful to me as i still have 2 attempts left to qualify for nationals

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Re: Tips on Pistol Shooting

Post by airgun_novice » Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:55 pm

Dear Anand et al
Didn't do too well at WZ. In fact due to medical reasons had to withdraw from the match without completing a set. Now I am faced with another se of problems - injured/ hurt/ torn pectoral muscles of left side. So in all probability will be out of action (prax) next few months. Will keep y'all posted when I re-bounce. Till then, au revoir.
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Added in 6 minutes 7 seconds:
Dear Kasim
Prax holding & FIG8 exercises as mentioned in earlier pages of the thread. This is assuming that your vision is perfect or perfectly corrected. I have vertical diplopia and hence tend to disperse in a vertical line in a pattern similar to yours. There's no cure or surgicla procedure for that. Lower and controlled blood sugar and normal BP might correct it. Hope you dn't suffer from these two problems. Good Luck.
regs
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Re: Tips on Pistol Shooting

Post by Kazim » Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:29 pm

dear airgun_novice
thanks for the advice i finally settled down for sub six hold and shot 360 in recently concluded aigvm in asansol and applied for wild card entry for nationals hoping to achieve clear mqs in upcoming north zone yes i have little weak eyes thats why i use glasses the problem what i observed was the tendency to stay in six ring hold despite of having a natural point of aim a little below in sub six ring now using sub six ring hold i feel a lot comfortable

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Re: Tips on Pistol Shooting

Post by hvj1 » Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:43 pm

The Monk, The Novice and the Table.

One day, an Old Monk was sitting alongside a novice, sipping tea on the table which was made by the Novice, who incidentally took great pride in his carpentry skills. As the Old Monk poured the tea from the pot into his cup, the table wobbled. Noticing this, the Novice put down his cup and got down onto his knees to trace the fault. He soon realised that one of the legs was slightly longer than the other three, resulting in the wobble. This upset the Novice, he wondered what the Old Monk would think about his carpentry skills, upset at the idea that the older Monk might think less of his skills, he waited till the senior monk had left, then he dashed down to where he kept his saw. Retrieving it, he ran back to the parlour and after measuring each leg length, he precisely sawed off the extra bit on the faulty leg. Satisfied, he left for his other monastery duties.

The next day, the Old monk was again seated with the novice, both were repeating the early morning tea ritual. Just as the Old Monk poured the tea from the pot, the table – wobbled. Chagrined, the novice waited till the senior had left and repeated the same series of steps of the previous day. Only this time the fault appeared to be on a different leg, this he diligently rectified.
The next day, again the table wobbled and again the Novice repeated the sawing of the faulty leg. This continued till the table top gradually lay flat on the floor. The Old monk and the Novice sat legs crossed on the floor to have tea on the table top, shorn of all its legs.

Surprisingly, the Old Monk never remarked on the wobble nor the gradual reduction of height of the table each day. He calmly poured his tea and sipped it with a benign calm expression. The novice by then had really lost it by then. Ashamed that the old monk had to sit on the floor, he went to the market and bought a solid table, which he brought back to the monastery and placed it in the tea parlour. The next day when the Old Monk poured tea, the table did not wobble. The Novice inwardly let out a huge sigh of relief. After the Old Monk had left, he bent down and examined all the legs of the new table, he was shocked to find a small neatly folded piece of paper under one on the legs. He had certainly not placed it? Then who had ? Out of curiosity, he removed the neatly folded piece of paper to ascertain how much the table would wobble without it. While doing so, he noticed that something was written inside the neatly folded paper.

Unfolding it, he read the three words written in a scrawl which he recognised as that of the Old Monk’s...’Keep it simple’ it said.

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Re: Tips on Pistol Shooting

Post by brihacharan » Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:35 pm

hvj1 wrote:The Monk, The Novice and the Table.

One day, an Old Monk was sitting alongside a novice, sipping tea on the table which was made by the Novice, who incidentally took great pride in his carpentry skills. As the Old Monk poured the tea from the pot into his cup, the table wobbled. Noticing this, the Novice put down his cup and got down onto his knees to trace the fault. He soon realised that one of the legs was slightly longer than the other three, resulting in the wobble. This upset the Novice, he wondered what the Old Monk would think about his carpentry skills, upset at the idea that the older Monk might think less of his skills, he waited till the senior monk had left, then he dashed down to where he kept his saw. Retrieving it, he ran back to the parlour and after measuring each leg length, he precisely sawed off the extra bit on the faulty leg. Satisfied, he left for his other monastery duties.

The next day, the Old monk was again seated with the novice, both were repeating the early morning tea ritual. Just as the Old Monk poured the tea from the pot, the table – wobbled. Chagrined, the novice waited till the senior had left and repeated the same series of steps of the previous day. Only this time the fault appeared to be on a different leg, this he diligently rectified.
The next day, again the table wobbled and again the Novice repeated the sawing of the faulty leg. This continued till the table top gradually lay flat on the floor. The Old monk and the Novice sat legs crossed on the floor to have tea on the table top, shorn of all its legs.

Surprisingly, the Old Monk never remarked on the wobble nor the gradual reduction of height of the table each day. He calmly poured his tea and sipped it with a benign calm expression. The novice by then had really lost it by then. Ashamed that the old monk had to sit on the floor, he went to the market and bought a solid table, which he brought back to the monastery and placed it in the tea parlour. The next day when the Old Monk poured tea, the table did not wobble. The Novice inwardly let out a huge sigh of relief. After the Old Monk had left, he bent down and examined all the legs of the new table, he was shocked to find a small neatly folded piece of paper under one on the legs. He had certainly not placed it? Then who had ? Out of curiosity, he removed the neatly folded piece of paper to ascertain how much the table would wobble without it. While doing so, he noticed that something was written inside the neatly folded paper.

Unfolding it, he read the three words written in a scrawl which he recognized as that of the Old Monk’s...
keep it simple, it said.
Pranam hvj1...Pure, undiluted ZEN wisdom :D
Briha

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Re: Tips on Pistol Shooting

Post by hvj1 » Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:05 pm

Dear Brihaji
My humble salutations to you too Wise One.

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Re: Tips on Pistol Shooting

Post by airgun_novice » Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:29 pm

Dear Monk et al,

Pranam. Fine toss of a pearl of Zen as the Grand Sire Abbot rightly mentions. Unfortunately, this novice has had to endure tremendous sweetness of actions resulting in loss of smaller picture while glimpsing the Maya in its various manifestations. Moreover not only the tools needed for making the table lost their edge but also efficient use of one of the arms while the other falters. Though the novice does not sign up as "the Thakur from Sholay" of course but probably should need a few months of therapy, break and rest. As soon as he is worthy of prolonged meditation, the novice promises to get up and work on the table. In the interim... Breathe In - Breathe Out.

regs
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Re: Tips on Pistol Shooting

Post by dev » Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:47 pm

Hi,

I have not been shooting much the last two years. Have many excuses but as the wife says that I seem to be use the tourney's as practise sessions. Nothing I am proud of but I thought that match experience would remove the mental hiccups. So my first big mistake was selling my match pistol cause now I was royally snafued.
I had in a way cut my nose to spite myself. I had thought that centerfire pistol was it. So last years' Delhi state was a total shambles as I kinda came last :oops:. Had picked up the pistol once before comp due to work hassles etc. This time I shot the Delhi State after one practise session and tried to qualify for a pre-national. The range had been shut and so Rajeev kindly excused my low score and let me enter the North Zone. By now I had borrowed Abhijeet's HW 40 an excellent pistol whose slightly lighter trigger pressure makes the match pistol guys frown on it. I found it to be excellent for practice with reduced size targets. For holding I used a brick but that was only for the days when I remembered to.

You can also do figure of 8's with a brick and improve your hold. Anyway as fate had it the North Zone match fell the Monday after my shifting house. So I said accept destiny and play the cards being dealt. On match day I did nothing special and was shooting the MQS match which is a NR (NATIONAL RULES=30 SHOTS...15 PRECISION, 15 Rapid fire). Did the sighter round pretty okay, first scoring group was fine, second scoring group went high and then third precision round again got back on zero but shot a seven or so. The second series basically flubbed the deal as the five shots were high sevens and eights. Now, I was calm enough to try lowering sights etc but what I had done was changed my stance slightly.

What the long story is leading to is that practice really has to be done with full awareness. Shooting more than a certain number is counter productive. Neeway I am out for this year. Another thing is that motivation has to be high. I somehow can't find the same intensity which I had when I shot center fire pistol the first time. The whole hoopla of watching some monkey steal your empties and all is just putting me off. Air pistol is what I shall shoot again , probably just for fun. There is another set of monkeys to deal with in air also.

Sorry for the rant I am sure AGN is still in the dark. Only guruji can help. I loved the parable but am wondering what to do next maybe shoot gulels for fun.
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Re: Tips on Pistol Shooting

Post by airgun_novice » Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:47 pm

Dear God,
Hope you are back on track ? I mean have you decided to reincarnate among us humble folks and blow the lead with pure force of Lord Vayu ? ;-) Long time this thread didn't seem to move on - so trying to awaken the Guruji from his tapas at the eastern foothills of the Sahyadris with a "Q minor". Yup yup shooting sweet music now.

Dear all,

OK back to the Qn -

Q. Pellets and AP staying the same, can a change of cylinder lead to different placement of shots on the same target ?

Another point of observation -

When I shoot AR, the shots tend to place and group BELOW the POA but when I shoot with AP they do that above, as expected. So I tested my doubt with an AP target. Same result. However, my kids tend to shoot AR at correct placement (above mine). With sights adjusted to take the shots above, the kids shoot AR above the bull when I place mine within. Any insights into this phenomenon ?

Update from my side - considerable recovery from the shoulder injuries and somewhat better check and control on my other niggles. So will restart prax from the basics from March.

regs
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Re: Tips on Pistol Shooting

Post by hvj1 » Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:02 am

airgun_novice wrote: OK back to the Qn -

Q. Pellets and AP staying the same, can a change of cylinder lead to different placement of shots on the same target ?
NO
Another point of observation -

When I shoot AR, the shots tend to place and group BELOW the POA but when I shoot with AP they do that above, as expected. So I tested my doubt with an AP target. Same result. However, my kids tend to shoot AR at correct placement (above mine). With sights adjusted to take the shots above, the kids shoot AR above the bull when I place mine within. Any insights into this phenomenon ?
For AR fiddle with clicks till you get it right.
Thanks for waking me up. :)

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