Indians For Guns

would like to see the IOF doing that. if they do it will increase the cost even more.
what about frangi ammo, who would sit down and stamp numbers on it. lets see base of .22 is so small after say 1k stamped numbers no space left. oh yes now comes the part of will all the serial numbers and batch numbers to be entered in the licence?

and MHA are saying that they are making it easy? for whome? bunch of numnuts.

estousandy wrote:PS: A Humble request to everyone planning on sending a feedback on this to MHA, Please include a Positive mention about Airsoft too in it even if you're not interested in that hobby. Helps a lot. Thank you.

As per my understanding Arms Act does not apply to any air arm that passes the deal wood test as per GSR 991. So taking all these pains to define airsoft guns and the like is needless and pointless.

apoorvsinghal wrote:I believe members especially senior members of the IFG can take the initiative and draft a full fledged reply commenting upon the stance of RKBA and what kind of guidelines a modern society needs. This draft can then be circulated on this forum and various other forums so that people can personally email that draft to the ministry through their email addresses and add weight to the movement. This can be much like the stance AIB (All India Bakchod) took when TRAI invited comments over net neutrality. Due to their initiative, TRAI received over 1 million mails from public.

Cheers!

Very important idea. Hope NAGRI is aware of this issue. Everyone should contribute and put their ideas here. Every idea is important.

SS wrote:Not to mention that all ammunition manufactured needs to have batch number and serial number..on each round!! So it can be traced if misused! Utterly ridiculous.

Request everyone to refer http://www.gunfacts.info/ It has many legally citable references including these kind of regulations that are utterly useless and drain on tax payers money. MHA is still at the same game it was prevented to do earlier. One may refer this thread and objections sent earlier http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 3&start=93

So that everyone understands the crap that MHA wants to legitimize as "law", it is important to understand the legal basis and purpose of Arms Act itself. Like RTI Act, Arms Act has been enacted by legislative powers under Article 246(5) for enabling the fundamental right to RKBA recognized by Articles 14, 19, 21, 25 and 300A. The RKBA under these Articles and as consequence/ reflection of these, the military, miltia and police common law fundamental rights and powers are clearly reflected in Articles 51A(b)(c),(d) & (i), Punjab Village and Small Towns Patrol Act, 1918 and the Himachal Pradesh Village And Small Towns Patrol Act, 1964, Sections 37 to 39, 43, 46, 47, 52 and 60 in Chapter V Arrest Of Persons of the Criminal Procedure Code and Sections 96 to 106 IPC.

"Licensing Authority" under Arms Act have been created by Parliament under Article 307 (please note the word authority in Article 307) to mainly tax trade, commerce and intercourse related to fundamental right to RKBA by collecting "license fee" from arms license holders, dealers, manufacturers, transporters and the like involved in "commercial" transactions related to RKBA.

Since RKBA is recognized under Articles 14, 19, 21, 25 and 300A, the tax for them under Article 307 by "license fees" has to be bare minimum so that every citizen regardless of financial condition is able to enjoy this right to the fullest. This is also the desire of directive principles of state policy in the Constitution. Otherwise the very purpose of enjoying this right under Articles 14, 19, 21, 25 and 300A will get defeated.

Article 307 is quoted below -

307. Parliament may by law appoint such authority as it considers appropriate for carrying out the purposes of articles 301, 302, 303 and 304, and confer on the authority so appointed such powers and such duties as it thinks necessary.

As per Articles 14, 19, 21, 25, 300A and 261(1), the area validity of license is by default supposed to be "All India" unless the government has some compelling evidence contrary to it on individual case by case basis. Article 261(1) and related details are mentioned in following post http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 05#p228612

PS : Militia is a Latin abstract noun, meaning "military service", not an "armed group". To the Romans, "military service" included law enforcement and disaster response. Today militia might be more meaningfully translated as "defense service", associated with a "defense duty", which attaches to individuals as much as to groups of them, organized or otherwise. When we are alone, we are all militias of one. In the broadest sense, militia is the exercise of civic virtue.

goodboy_mentor wrote:As per my understanding Arms Act does not apply to any air arm that passes the deal wood test as per GSR 991. So taking all these pains to define airsoft guns and the like is needless and pointless.

Then why did they include paintball guns in this draft? Isn't it an air arm that passes deal wood test? It is, & it got a spot.

Defining AS makes it easier to make a stand when customs detain it. I've suffered due to its absence, just like many others out there. There's nothing wrong in suggesting.

IFG's tagline is "India's largest guns, shooting & outdoors community!" . Everything related has its space.

estousandy wrote:Then why did they include paintball guns in this draft? Isn't it an air arm that passes deal wood test? It is, & it got a spot.

Defining AS makes it easier to make a stand when customs detain it. I've suffered due to its absence, just like many others out there. There's nothing wrong in suggesting.

IFG's tagline is "India's largest guns, shooting & outdoors community!" . Everything related has its space.

I would request everyone to not get emotional but read the draft with "legal eye" and mind to understand the game. Problems with customs are due to different reasons and has nothing to do with lack of definitions. Believe me this definition is not going to solve problem with customs. It will only give them more levers to create problems. Enactments are based on contract principles. More "definitions" in any enactment are done not to make things easy but only with view to add more restrictions. The same is getting reflected in Rule 70 of this Draft Arms Rules.

Please note that in present Arms Rules there is no restriction for any kind of air firearms(including paint ball and the like) that satisfy deal wood test because of GSR 991. But since MHA wants to do away with GSR 991, it has placed restriction on maximum number of air weapons including paint ball guns to be stocked by dealer in proposed Rule 70. Since it wants to push for mandatory use of electronic disabling devices at a later stage, they are also listed there. The net result of all this(if it becomes a law) is nothing but more restrictions, more burden, more problems, more corruption and tyranny for you, me and everyone.

Hope it answers your question "Then why did they include paintball guns in this draft?"

(News in Economic Times.
Is this liberalising gun laws?)

NEW DELHI: The government is likely to introduce safety measures while liberalisinggun laws. Changes proposed to the Arms ActRules,1962, forbid one to point a firearm at anyone without "good reason." A gun cannot be brandished in a public place but concealed in a holster. There will also be a ban on firing in the air at marriages, fairs and public events. Such firing has led to many deaths in rural and semi-urban areas. Failure to abide by the guidelines will lead to cancellation of weapon licence.

However,certain change of provisions is likely to find favour with businessmen and professionals who undertake frequent trips across India. Union Ministers, MPs and bureaucrats of all-India service will be considered for an all-India validity licence, than a state-specific one, so they can carry guns everywhere legitimately.

ET was the first to report, on January 14, that the government would amend the more than half-a century-old rules to make obtaining gun licences simpler and faster by introducing a deadline for deciding on the applications and reducing the number of application forms. The draft rules, in public domain, fulfill the aim with conditions.

"This is a counter-check to ensure people handle licenced arms responsibly," a top home ministry official told ET. So in the application form for obtaining a gun license, the "restrictions" on carrying a firearm in a public place have been spelt out. "No person may carry a fire arm in a public place unless the firearm is carried in a holster or similar holder designed, manufactured or adapted for the carrying of a handgun," the draft rules now say.

media reports should be taken extramily lightly as they do not state the truth nor the facts 100%. But tell half truths

goodboy_mentor wrote:Believe me this definition is not going to solve problem with customs. It will only give them more levers to create problems

Exactly. Like mentioned in the very first post here, this effort however small it be, is only for a closure. Not for successful resolution. Either ban it or clarify the restrictions involved. The unpredictability(of clubbing it with airguns/firearms) is just too much. I was asked for the "exact word" in arms act. We're trying for this now only because paintball is mentioned. Else who cares for the 0.01% user base.

Yes they are gonna restrict everything, but they asked for comments. So this is the time to give that, however trivial it might be, and irrespective of expected outcomes. Remember, these trivial things got added to arms rules of various civilized countries recently by amendments. Again, No hopes at all.

Peace

I don't know how far this is true but a source informed yesterday that the Amendments have been drafted not by officials in the home ministry but by a chartered accountant handpicked by the government. He is a certain Mr Sharma (I am not mentioning the first name on purpose) who lives in Amritsar. He is also said to be a part time stock broker. Would be obliged if anybody in the forum who has inside knowledge about the drafting committee or who lives in Amritsar can verify this.

Cheers
TC

PS: I am still studying the new rules. Will post my comments in a day or two

estousandy wrote:Yes they are gonna restrict everything, but they asked for comments. So this is the time to give that, however trivial it might be, and irrespective of expected outcomes. Remember, these trivial things got added to arms rules of various civilized countries recently by amendments. Again, No hopes at all.

Peace

There are lot of hopes. Yes we must discuss all the points here from legal angle and post here. Finally create a coherent and legally meaningful rebuttal to all this and post it to the MHA with CC to Home Minister, Prime Minister, President and all Rajya Sabha M.P.s. This is a sub ordinate legislation and will go to Rajya Sabha. Fortunately opposition parties have majority in Rajya Sabha. Also try to meet local Rajaya Sabha M.P.s and educate them to block this kind of legislation. The present Arms Rules are sufficient enough if they are implemented with honesty.

I am no legal expert, but more or less its old wine new bottle, the major change being about central govt getting notified about the license. Something which i found lil strange is the part where they are asking for safe storage information. I mean its good but how are they going to verify it, if i give under taking that i have godrej almirah with lock and key then will it suffice.
There is no category for normal person without any death threat or sports membership to get license, that part is still under the carpet, nothing for the RKBA.

Will try to read more

Presuming that there will be substantial increase in weapon & ammunition prices in open market. (heavy hike in fees)

mbsolan wrote:Presuming that there will be substantial increase in weapon & ammunition prices in open market. (heavy hike in fees)

As long as there is a single manufacture and no imports, you can bank on it.

TC wrote:I don't know how far this is true but a source informed yesterday that the Amendments have been drafted not by officials in the home ministry but by a chartered accountant handpicked by the government. He is a certain Mr Sharma (I am not mentioning the first name on purpose) who lives in Amritsar. He is also said to be a part time stock broker. Would be obliged if anybody in the forum who has inside knowledge about the drafting committee or who lives in Amritsar can verify this.

Cheers
TC

PS: I am still studying the new rules. Will post my comments in a day or two

This is a great political ammunition for M.P.s of opposition parties in Rajya Sabha. It also means officials in the home ministry are not free to do their work themselves. Can you please PM or email more details of this person? Also if there is any kind of evidence to back this fact, like payments made for his "services" etc. ?

http://mha.nic.in/sites/upload_files/mh ... nt2014.PDF
About Mr.Sharma

Also should'nt the MHA have put up on the website, the proposed amendments to the Arms Act 1959 (the Amendment Bill) first, before putting up the Draft Arms Rules 2015. If the Arms Act itself is being changed (pending approval) how can the Rules for it be drafted first? Can a lawyer or more experienced member answer please. I am very confused.

an interesting find, saved a copy of it, as it is bound to disappear in annals of MHA once they find it that we have.lol

Anand, you have raised an interesting question.

can a single man draft out the rules? and not a large group ? am not against Mr. Sharma, just a question,