Indians For Guns

Need advice from the members of this forum.
We want to equip forest department staff in central India with guns for protecting forests and for their self protection. Which gun or rifle will be best. The main threat is from poachers and tigers. The weapon should be easy to handle and maintain. Automatic weapons like SLR etc are not required as they will not be fighting a war.
please advice.

Just go for IOF .30-06 rifle and IOF pump action. The noise of cocking of the pump action 12 bore is deterrent to poachers. I am recommendung these weapons from my personal experience with forest department. The .3-06 is far better than .315 rifle. The state government has the facility to import pump action 12 guns at much cheaper rates from renowned firms.

SLR is not an automatic but semi automatic rifle(like pistol). It means you will not have to manually use the bolt before firing the next cartridge. Following are my preferences in descending order -

1. SLR in 7.62 x 51 mm Nato cartridge. Why? Cartridge has good ballistics and the rifle is semi automatic.
2. IOF .30-06 (7.62 x 63 mm) bolt action rifle. Why? .30-06 cartridge has good ballistics and the rifle is fairly accurate.
3. IOF .315 bolt action rifle. Why? The cartridge has heavy bullet. But this has slightly inferior ballistics as compared with 7.62 x 51 mm Nato or .30-06 (7.62 x 63 mm).

Regarding shotguns, you may go for 12 gauge IOF or any well known brand of pump action shotguns or any good quality double barreled shotguns. As compared with rifles, shotguns have shorter range of around 30 - 40 yards and are less accurate. To have adequate stopping power in shotgun, against deadly human attackers(poachers etc.) or tigers, use rifled slug cartridges or LG cartridges. LG cartridges are banned for civilian possession but your department may get approval from government. Shotgun cartridges with smaller sized pellets may prove to be inadequate in dangerous situations. Shotgun cartridges with smaller sized pellets will not do the job, especially at longer distances.

Whatever is the final outcome of the decision of your department, please do post the results here. It would be interesting to know.

Maybe you can equip a team with different weapons.
12 Guage to scare off potential tiger attacks & even the shot spread can be used to defend ones self against poachers. If im not mistaken the department already has mossberg pump action 12g weapons.
Additionally a 30.06 can be used for long rage engagement.
/S

Thank you guys.
We already have 9 mm IOF pistols for officers.
Also, in some areas 7.62 mm SLRs have been given but it is too precious a weapon and forest staff are not that well trained and operate in smaller parties of ones and twos. So my apprehension is that the they might be attacked to snatch the weapon.
IOF 12 bore pump action guns have been at some places but they have o lot of maintenance issues
In Uttarakhand, .315 guns are used by the forest staff quite effectively against elephants and poachers.
So which is better in terms of ease of use, maintenance and effectiveness??

If you are worried about snatching, that would apply equally well irrespective of the make/ model of firearm chosen. The only fix is proper training! Armed staff should undergo proper firearms training with focus not only on safe and effective use of a firearm, but also on best course of action in various scenarios.

Wildlife guards in African countries are often armed with fully automatic firearms, so it may not be out of place to at least consider arming our forest guards with semi-auto rifles. The fact that large numbers of these (SLRs) remain in surplus stock with the central government means that there is a possibility of having them issued at fairly cheap rates. On the flip side, the paperwork required may be cumbersome.

From amongst the models available to civilians, the IOF .30-06 is probably the best choice for the scenarios they will likely face. It is a very accurate rifle, right out of the box and has no real problems (IOF copied the Sauer 202 design, an excellent choice IMHO). It also has a chrome lined barrel, so is quite forgiving of infrequent cleaning.

In some limited cases, a shotgun would indeed be useful, but it should be loaded with buckshot and not birdshot. I think IOF still makes buckshot for supply to government agencies (as they don't fall within the purview of the buckshot ban, only civilians do).

Once again, do institute a proper training program for the guards to be armed. With monthly refreshers of minimum 25 rounds to be fired at the shooting range.

All the best, you chaps are doing some good work!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

forestgun wrote: In Uttarakhand, .315 guns are used by the forest staff quite effectively against elephants and poachers.

Only for elephants as a warning shot. Uttarakhand is short of man power as well as equipment. Forest deptt due to lack of man power and corruption has failed in stopping poaching and illegal mining in forest area. Even the team from Central govt was shocked to see illegal mining in forest area thst too in daylight! Sometimes back 5.56mm and 7.62mm used cartridges were recovered in adjoining areas of Rajaji and Corbett national park in Haridwar district. Special Task Force of state police has been more effective in stopping poaching using their local informers than the forest deptt.

Regards,
Maroon_d3vil

5.56 mm INSAS. Its Govt. Issue. Light to carry and easy to train on. Both 7.62 mm and .30 06, though fine weapons, are cumbersome to carry on patrol.

forestgun wrote:So which is better in terms of ease of use, maintenance and effectiveness??

Ease of use: SLR. Why? Because you do not have to work on bolt every time before firing the next cartridge. Once the bolt is cocked, just aim and pull the trigger to fire. Moreover it's magazine can hold 20 cartridges. So you can rock and roll until twenty cartridges are fired. Also bayonet can be attached to it and used as last resort.

Maintenance: Unless there is some deliberate mischievous effort or carelessness, basic maintenance is more or less similar.

Effectiveness: A lot depends on training of the user. If you can't hit the target at proper place, no matter what gun is in your hands, it is useless. All the three cartridges are pretty much effective. 7.62 x 51 mm Nato and .30-06 (7.62 x 63 mm) are almost identical in performance and range. Though .315 is slightly inferior in range to these two, but it's heavier projectile should not be underestimated. All these three cartridges are military grade cartridges that have been/ are been used by armies, police, hunters and shooters all around the world. Even the 12 gauge shot gun at short ranges has extremely deadly effect.

Chengy wrote:5.56 mm INSAS. Its Govt. Issue. Light to carry and easy to train on. Both 7.62 mm and .30 06, though fine weapons, are cumbersome to carry on patrol.

Though 5.56 mm is a good cartridge and rifle is comparatively light to carry, I would stay away from it or similar light cartridges to deal with furious wild animals like tigers, leopards etc. There have been reports that whereas 7.62 x 51 mm Nato or similar cartridges are able to immediately stop furious attackers, 5.56 mm cartridge is unable to immediately stop furious insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan. In early seventies when hunting was legal, one of my relatives along with his friend went to hunt wild boar, in wilderness of Ganganagar in Rajasthan near Punjab border. His friend had rifle that fired narrow and light cartridge similar to 5.56. When wild boar suddenly appeared, he fired it. Bullet went through it's front and exited from it's posterior. It had no effect on wild boar and in matter of seconds this person would have been killed by the charging wild boar. He was saved because the relative was armed with 12 gauge double barreled shot gun loaded with LG cartridges. LG cartridges were legal during those times. The moment wild boar was hit with LG shot, he immediately dropped dead to the ground.

5.56 mm is definitely not a sporting round and has little stopping power against wild boar and such like. However, the requirement projected is for anti poaching and self protection. It is loud enough to scare of animals and powerful enough to stop poachers who are not likely to be wearing armour. Its light weight and ease of use outweigh the disadvantages of a light weapon

If you note, the author of this thread has clearly mentioned, the requirement is to deal with poachers and tigers. It means they need a multipurpose cartridge. Lions, tigers, wild boars, leopards etc. are highly dangerous animals. They can be very dangerous to deal with 5.56 mm at close quarters. If they want to go for some exotic cartridge, they can go for 7.92 x 57 mm cartridge rifles. 7.92 x 57 mm is also a well proven military grade cartridge. It has heavy projectile and range almost identical to 7.62 x 51 mm Nato and .30-06 (7.62 x 63 mm). But these rifles or it's cartridges are not manufactured in India. They will have to be imported from Europe or America. But then why go for imports when 7.62 x 51 mm Nato or .30-06 (7.62 x 63 mm) or .315 can serve the same purpose?

goodboy_mentor wrote: 1. SLR in 7.62 x 51 mm Nato cartridge. Why? Cartridge has good ballistics and the rifle is semi automatic.
2. IOF .30-06 (7.62 x 63 mm) bolt action rifle. Why? .30-06 cartridge has good ballistics and the rifle is fairly accurate.
3. IOF .315 bolt action rifle. Why? The cartridge has heavy bullet. But this has slightly inferior ballistics as compared with 7.62 x 51 mm Nato or .30-06 (7.62 x 63 mm).

In some limited cases, a shotgun would indeed be useful, but it should be loaded with buckshot and not birdshot. I think IOF still makes buckshot for supply to government agencies (as they don't fall within the purview of the buckshot ban, only civilians do).

Once again, do institute a proper training program for the guards to be armed. With monthly refreshers of minimum 25 rounds to be fired at the shooting range

That Pretty Much sums it up.

Im glad to know, that you decided to reach out to the forum. I hope the suggestions made sense to you.

Also, MOST important, the training aspect's highlighted, are the key to success, I am sure with the correct paper work and time, you would be able to accquire the weapons you need, but its a time honored saying "Its Not the Gun, Its the Man behind the Gun"

Let us know how it goes.

Cheers,
-P

Hi,
I was consulting for the forest department in Karnataka, for their Shotgun requirement. I had made a presentation for them, which I have attached.
Of course, the very valuable advise for the 7.62, 30-06 and .315 is very valid for your regions, but since I had this handy, and was already approved by a Chief Conservator, I thought it best to share.
I also emphasize on proper training including maintenance and transport/storage, which I found very much required in these parts, as most end-users, i.e. the guards on the ground, tend to overestimate the soil-licking capacities of these beauties, apart from the way they hold/move the guns.
In another 'User-Experience' session, I also observed that the guards are meant to carry a flashlight along with the gun, which makes it deliberately inconvenient to use both at the same time. I had therefore much emphasized on the need for a flashlight attachment to the guns, which seemingly turned very handy.
I as also wondering... that in one of the training sessions that I am due to take for a set of forest guards here (Karnataka), why not make a trip down south and check on how some tips I have for them can work out for you all?

Best,
TenX

Very good and interesting presentation for the forest department.

Thank you all. I have got a lot of food for thought.
The presentation was really interesting. Will certainly attend one of the training sessions and get a few organized for our staff as well.
You are right that it is the man behind the gun who matters
Cheers!!