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INSAS rifles to be retired, Indian Army to get foreign alternative

Discussions related to firearms that do not fit in anywhere else.
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Woods
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Re: INSAS rifles to be retired, Indian Army to get foreign alternative

Postby Woods » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:15 am

I went through the comments and the mentioned earlier posts of yourself which supposedly explain "disarming"of Indians due to casteism !!--
found nothing except your personal views . And found nothing even anywhere else .
Your views are so far-fetched that they very much resembles the idiology that women are responsible for the rape as it's her who carries the instrument of sin and didn't take care of it / provoked the assailant .
It's disheartening to note that a senior member of this forum is so much filled with hate .
It's also very bad to realize that another member sa_ali hurried to second YOUR OPINIONS so quickly when other members maintained a dignified restraint . Seems people start their ideological propaganda as soon as opportunity arises whatever be the place .

I also tried to find out who is Swami Dharma Teertha and came to agree on you on the point that--
"" Woods wrote:
But let me say this much -- I am a Christian .

This statement proves nothing because anyone can claim to be following one particular religion and start bashing that or some other religion. Not saying that you are doing it but this is a very common strategy played by vested interests not only online but also publicly. ""

I hoped Swamy must be some celebrated contemporary thinker as one senior member like you were quoting him so vigorously and extensively . But even google failed to figure out who Mr Swamy was . Seems Mr Swamy wrote one thing and disappeared forever . This severely injures the possibility of a counter-narrative or discussion of the learned ( I am so less endowed with the guts of debate that I seek your pardon in furthering conversation on this topic).
To me Mr Swamy appears to be another "taqqiya" expert .

I also went through several searches . For example --"most corrupt countries" , "most unsafe countries" , " countries with worst human rights record " etc . I failed to find India anywhere and you will be hurt by this result ( utterly failed to find "Hindu/Christian /Jew imperialism or casteism " as a possible cause) . However I found some common denominator in these searches but that ought not to be a matter of discussion here (people around the globe are getting aware of these elements already).

You should also ponder over the fact that Indians are hailed as educated, hard-working , intelligent , HONEST people wherever they go . It's only the system here that is nurturing corruption. If the corruption was a phenomena of a particular religious -psyche then it would be found wherever the person of that faith goes .

Also , since independence this country has been governed by leftist/ pseudo-liberal / hate-mongering people much like you ( I am compelled to note) and it were they who have gifted us India in it's present form .
I think a healthy discussion is already swarming social media on these topics . Let"s discuss gun and gun-rights here .
I would also like to say -- all have seen enough of this hate . None of us is going anywhere . India is the pool where every fish has to swim . Don't further pollute it . This is our Motherland as it is .It's for us to work for good or at least let others do.


Never seen a thin person drinking diet coke .

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estousandy
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Re: INSAS rifles to be retired, Indian Army to get foreign alternative

Postby estousandy » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:49 am

First, this is a thread about the much needed kicking out of INSAS. Second, it's quite clear where exactly this thread got polluted. Third, the systematic effort from ages towards disarming of Indian citizens of any weapon(arms, knowledge etc.) is quite well known & such a hate filled topic definitely deserves another thread elsewhere.

Let's here just stick to reasonably bashing INSAS for what it is not & what it barely is, and dissect whatever could replace it.


The most dangerous part of a gun is the loose nut behind the stock.

goodboy_mentor
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Re: INSAS rifles to be retired, Indian Army to get foreign alternative

Postby goodboy_mentor » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:31 pm

Woods wrote:I went through the comments and the mentioned earlier posts of yourself which supposedly explain "disarming"of Indians due to casteism !!--
The core of casteism theory rests on disarming everyone except those who are the ruling elite. This is a fact, whether you like it or not. This is exactly what is happening even today despite the Constitution and the laws. If you want to destroy casteism, destroy arms licensing. But that is not likely to happen so long casteism is to be protected by hook or crook. Then who is benefiting by casteism and gun licensing? Nobody except the corrupt ruling elite.

When even twirling a moustache is perceived a threat to the ruling castes, then how can the oppressed castes be allowed to keep guns?
Dalit youth beaten for twirling moustache

AHMEDABAD: A dispute over a dalit youth twirling his moustache before members of the darbar community sparked violence in which some darbars assaulted the dalit youth's family in Memadpur village of Jotana taluka in Mehsana district. Two persons of the family are still hospitalized in Mehsana's civil hospital.

Mahesh Parmar, 24, the dalit youth, was fond of sporting a moustache but he did not know that it would lead to an assault on his family.

Mahesh's elder brother, Naresh (27), said his brother was standing at a roadside eatery on December 12 and twirling his moustache while some members of darbar community were standing in front of him.

"They went to my brother and asked him why he was twirling his moustache and to which community he belonged. When my brother told him that he is a Parmar, they started abusing and beating him," Naresh said.

"Later, my brother on the advice of the elders of our village, settled the matter with those darbars. But the very next day, four other darbars came to our house and started abusing us and hurled caste-related insults. When we asked them to refrain from this, they started beating me," Naresh said.

Naresh further said that when his 72-year-old grandmother, Maniben, came to rescue her grandson, she fell down and fractured her leg. "I was beaten mercilessly and my grandmother also got injured in that attack. We were then taken to the civil hospital," he said.
Source http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 026997.cms

Woods wrote: found nothing except your personal views . And found nothing even anywhere else .
The book that has been mentioned is a fact, the laws of Manu are a fact unless you want to suppress the facts.

Woods wrote:Your views are so far-fetched that they very much resembles the idiology that women are responsible for the rape as it's her who carries the instrument of sin and didn't take care of it / provoked the assailant .
Facts are just the opposite.

Woods wrote:It's disheartening to note that a senior member of this forum is so much filled with hate .
It's also very bad to realize that another member sa_ali hurried to second YOUR OPINIONS so quickly when other members maintained a dignified restraint . Seems people start their ideological propaganda as soon as opportunity arises whatever be the place .
Facts are not equal to "hate" unless you are really scared of accepting the facts. If someone is agreeing with the facts, nothing "bad" about it. Yes those who do not want to accept the facts, it is certainly "bad" for them.

Woods wrote:I hoped Swamy must be some celebrated contemporary thinker as one senior member like you were quoting him so vigorously and extensively . But even google failed to figure out who Mr Swamy was . Seems Mr Swamy wrote one thing and disappeared forever . This severely injures the possibility of a counter-narrative or discussion of the learned ( I am so less endowed with the guts of debate that I seek your pardon in furthering conversation on this topic).
"celebrated contemporary" are media created by those who control the media. Rather than resorting to google, resort to reading the book, it is clearly mentioned in the foreword written by a retired Supreme Court judge, about who he was. Author profile is also clearly mentioned.

Woods wrote:To me Mr Swamy appears to be another "taqqiya" expert .
It is just your personal perception devoid of facts.

Woods wrote:I also went through several searches . For example --"most corrupt countries" , "most unsafe countries" , " countries with worst human rights record " etc .
"Searches" depend a lot on the type of search words are used. Most importantly is something does not exist on internet, it does not mean it does not or did not exist.

Woods wrote:I failed to find India anywhere and you will be hurt by this result ( utterly failed to find "Hindu/Christian /Jew imperialism or casteism " as a possible cause) .
Already quoted above wherein even twirling a moustache is a crime and threat to casteism and it's laws came as a search result. It is just a tip of the iceberg. Another one below -
How Adi Shankara destroyed Buddhism and founded ‘Hinduism’ in the 8th century
[.....]
1. Lal, V. 2004. Buddhism’s Disappearance from India [serial online]. [cited 2009 August 26]; [2 screens]. Available from
2. Jaini, P.S., Narain A.K., ed., 1980. The Disappearance of Buddhism and the Survival of Jainism: A Study in Contrast. Studies in History of Buddhism. Delhi: B.R. Publishing Company:181-91.
3. Ahir, D.C. 2005. Buddhism Declined in India: How and Why? Delhi: B.R. Publishing.
[.....]
1) The Divyavadana (ed. Vaidya, 282). The most important of the murderous Hindu bigots who carried out their systematic campaign of violence against the peaceful followers of Lord Buddhawas Pushyamitra (184-48 B.C.), the founder of the Shunga dynasty. For details and refrences do see BELOW
2) Goyal [430] “The culprit in this case was Toramana, a member of the same dynasty as the Shaivite Mihirakula who did “immense damage to the Buddhist shrines in Gandhara, Punjab and Kashmir.” For details and refrences do see BELOW
3) Mihirakula is said to have razed 1600 viharas, stupas and monasteries, and “put to death 900 Kotis, or lay adherents of Buddhism” [Joshi, 404].
4) The Aryamanjushrimulakalpa tells us that Pushyamitra “destroyed monasteries with relics and killed monks of good conduct.” [Jayaswal, 18-19]
5) As Goyal [394] notes, “According to many scholars hostility of the Brahmanas was one of the major causes of the decline of Buddhism in India.”
6) The celebrated Tibetan historian Lama Taranatha mentions the march of Pushyamitra from Madhyadesha to Jalandhara. In the course of his campaigns, the book states, Pushyamitra burned down numerous Buddhist monasteries and killed a number of learned monks The archaeological evidence for the ravages wrought by Pushyamitra and other Hindu fanatic rulers on famous Buddhist shrines is abundant.
7) The Brhannaradiya-purana lays it down as a principal sin for a Brahmana to enter the house of a Buddhist even in times of great peril.
8) The drama Mrchchhakatika shows that in Ujjain the Buddhist monks were despised and their sight was considered inauspicious.
9) The Vishnupurana (XVIII 13-18) also regards the Buddha as Mayamoha who appeared in the world to delude the demons. Kumarila is said to have instigated King Sudhanvan of Ujjain to exterminate the Buddhists.
10) The Kerala-utpatti describes how he exterminated the Buddhists from Kerala.”
11) The Chinese traveller Yuan Chwang (Huen Tsang), who visited India in the seventh century records the oppressions of Shashanka, the king of Gauda, who was a devotee of Shiva.
12) Yuan Chwang’s account reads, “In recent times Shashanka, the enemy and oppressor of Buddhism, cut down the Bodhi tree, destroyed its roots down to the water and burned what remained.” [Watters II p.115] He also says that Shashanka tried “to have the image (of Lord Buddha at Bodhgaya) removed and replaced by one of Shiva”.
13) Another independent account of Shashanka’s oppressions is found in the Aryamanjushrimulakalpa, which refers to Shashanka destroying “the beautiful image of Buddha” [Jayaswal, 49-50].
14) Another prominent seventh century murderer of Buddhists was Sudhanvan of Ujjain, already mentioned in the quotation from Goyal above as having been supposedly instigated by Kumarila Bhatt.
15) Madhava Acharya, in his “Sankara-digvijayam” of the fourteenth century A.D., records that Suddhanvan “issued orders to put to death all the Buddhists from Ramesvaram to the Himalayas”.
16) Even after the Islamic invasions of India, Hindu bigotry and hatred for Buddhists was not subdued. According to Sharmasvamin, a Tibetan pilgrim who visited Bihar three decades after the invasion of Bakhtiaruddin Khilji in the 12th century, the biggest library at Nalanda was destroyed by Hindu mendicants who took advantage of the chaos produced by the invasion.
He says that “they (Hindus) performed a Yajna, a fire sacrifice, and threw living embers and ashes from the sacrifice into the Buddhist temples. This produced a great conflagration which consumed Ratnabodhi, the nine-storeyed library of the Nalanda University“. [Prakash, 213]. Numerous destroyed Buddhist shrines were converted into Hindu temples after their destruction.
17) Ahir [58] notes that “The Seat of Buddha’s Enlightenment was in the possession of a Hindu Mahant till 1952.
18) Similarly, at Kushinara, where the Buddha had entered into Mahaparinirvana, the cremation stupa had been converted into a Hindu temple, and on top of it stood the temple of Rambhar Bhavani when Cunningham discovered the site in 1860-61.
19) Among the shrines which still continue to be dedicated to Hindu gods mention may be made of the Caityas of Chezrala and Ter in Andhra Pradesh which are now Shiva and Vishnu temples respectively.
20) The temple of Madhava at Sal Kusa, opposite Gauhati in Asam, was once a sacred shrine of the Buddhists. …
21) And the famous Jagannatha temple at Puri in Orissa was also originally a Buddhist shrine.
22) Similarly, the Vishnupada temple at Gaya was also once a Buddhist shrine.” As Rajendralal Mitra notes in his famous work of 1878 [quoted in Ahir, 59] the feet of Buddha at Gaya were rechristened the feet of Vishnu and held as the most sacred object of worship in the new Vishnupada temple.
[......]
Firstly, they launched a campaign of hatred and persecution against the Buddhists. Then, they appropriated many of the finer aspects of Buddhism into their own system so as to win over the “lower” caste Buddhist masses, but made sure that this selective appropriation did not in any way undermine Brahminical hegemony. The final stage in this project to wipeout Buddhism was to propound and propagate the myth that the Buddha was merely another ‘incarnation’ (avatar) of the Hindu god Vishnu. Buddha was turned into just another of the countless deities of the Brahminical pantheon. The Buddhists were finally absorbed into the caste system, mainly as Shudras and ‘Untouchables’, and with that the Buddhist presence was completely obliterated from the land of its birth. Dr. Bhimrao Ambedkar writes in his book, The Untouchables, that the ancestors of today’s Dalits were Buddhists who were reduced to the lowly status of ‘untouchables’ for not having accepted the supremacy of the Brahmins. They were kept apart from other people and were forced to live in ghettos of their own. Being treated worse that beasts of burden and forbidden to receive any education, these people gradually lost touch with Buddhism, but yet never fully reconciled themselves to the Brahminical order. Many of them later converted to Islam, Sikhism and Christianity in a quest for liberation from the Brahminical religion.

To lend legitimacy to their campaign against Buddhism, Brahminical texts included fierce strictures against Buddhists. Manu, in his Manusmriti, laid down that, “If a person touches a Buddhist […] he shall purify himself by having a bath.” Aparaka ordained the same in his Smriti. Vradha Harit declared entry into a Buddhist temple a sin, which could only be expiated for by taking a ritual bath. Even dramas and other books for lay people written by Brahmins contained venomous propaganda against the Buddhists. In the classic work, Mricchakatika, (Act VII), the hero Charudatta, on seeing a Buddhist monk pass by, exclaims to his friend Maitriya— “Ah! Here is an inauspicious sight, a Buddhist monk coming towards us.”

The Brahmin Chanakya, author of Arthashastra, declared that, “When a person entertains in a dinner dedicated to gods and ancestors those who are Sakyas (Buddhists), Ajivikas, Shudras and exiled persons, a fine of one hundred panas shall be imposed on him.” Shankaracharaya, the leader of the Brahminical revival, struck terror into the hearts of the Buddhists with his diatribes against their religion.

The simplicity of the Buddha’s message, its stress on equality and its crusade against the bloody and costly sacrifices and ritualism of Brahminism had attracted the oppressed casts in large numbers. The Brahminical revivalists understood the need to appropriate some of these finer aspects of Buddhism and discarded some of the worst of their own practices so as to be able to win over the masses back to the Brahminical fold. Hence began the process of the assimilation of Buddhism by Brahminism.

The Brahimns, who were once voracious beef-eaters, turned vegetarian, imitating the Buddhists in this regard. Popular devotion to the Buddha was sought to be replaced by devotion to Hindu gods such as Rama and Krishna. The existing version of the Mahabharata was written in the period in which the decline of Buddhism had already begun, and it was specially meant for the Shudras, most of whom were Buddhists, to attract them away from Buddhism. Brahminism, however, still prevented the Shudras from having access to the Vedas, and the Mahabharata was possibly written to placate the Buddhist Shudras and to compensate them for this discrimination.

The Mahabharata incorporated some of the humanistic elements of Buddhism to win over the Shudras, but, overall, played its role of bolstering the Brahminical hegemony rather well. Thus, Krishna, in the Gita, is made to say that a person ought not to violate the “divinely ordained” law of caste. Eklavya is made to slice off his thumb by Drona, who is finds it a gross violation of dharma that a mere tribal boy should excel the Kshatriya Arjun in archery.
[......]
In the Gaya Mahatmaya, the concluding section of the Vayu Purana, the town of Gaya is identified as Gaya Asura, a demon who had attained such holiness that all those who saw him or touched him went straight to heaven. Clearly, this ‘demon’ was none other the Buddha who preached a simple way for all, including the oppressed castes, to attain salvation. The Vayu Purana story goes on to add that Yama, the king of hell, grew jealous at this, possibly because less people were now entering his domains. He appealed to the gods to limit the powers of Asura Gaya. This the gods, led by Vishnu, were able to do by placing a massive stone on the “demon’s” head. This monstrous legend signified the ultimate capture of Budhdhism’s most holy centre by its most inveterate foes.
[......]
In addition to vilifying the fair name of the Buddha, the Brahminical revivalists goaded Hindu kings to persecute and even slaughter innocent Buddhists. Sasanka, the Shaivite Brahmin king of Bengal, murdered the last Buddhist emperor Rajyavardhana, elder brother of Harshavardhana, in 605 AD and then marched on to Bodh Gaya where he destroyed the Bodhi tree under which the Buddha had attained enlightenment. He forcibly removed the Buddha’s image from the Bodh Vihara near the tree and installed one of Shiva in its place.

Finally, Sasanka is said to have slaughtered all the Buddhist monks in the area around Kushinagar. Another such Hindu king was, Mihirakula, a Shaivite, who is said to have completely destroyed over 1500 Buddhist shrines. The Shaivite Toramana is said to have destroyed the Ghositarama Buddhist monastery at Kausambi.

The extermination of Buddhism in India was hastened by the large-scale destruction and appropriation of Buddhist shrines by the Brahmins. The Mahabodhi Vihara at Bodh Gaya was forcibly converted into a Shaivite temple, and the controversy lingers on till this day. The cremation stupa of the Buddha at Kushinagar was changed into a Hindu temple dedicated to the obscure deity with the name of Ramhar Bhavani. Adi Shankara is said to have established his Sringeri Mutth on the site of a Buddhist monastery which he took over. Many Hindu shrines in Ayodhya are said to have once been Buddhist temples, as is the case with other famous Brahminical temples such as those at Sabarimala, Tirupati, Badrinath and Puri.
References:
4. Yu-Ki Or, Buddhist Records of the Western Countries written by Hsien-tsang (circa 650 AD). Taken from Translations by Thomas Watters (1904) and Samuel Beal (1884) http://www.iras.ucalgary.ca/~volk/sylvi ... -Tsang.htm )
5. Messengers of light: Chinese Buddhist pilgrims in India by Paul Magnin Unesco Courier, Vol. 48 No.5 May.1995 Pp.24-27.
6. Discovery of India by Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru
[......]
Source http://bapumraut.blogspot.in/2013/02/ho ... m-and.html Are all these doing "taqqiya"(whatever that means to you or the apologists or those in denial mode)

Woods wrote:However I found some common denominator in these searches but that ought not to be a matter of discussion here (people around the globe are getting aware of these elements already).
The "elements" are very likely the agents of intelligence agencies of certain countries, out with an agenda. As an example, following is the video of proceedings of inquiry commission setup by Canadian Parliament to find out who the real culprits were in the mid air bombing of Air India flight 182. Canadian intelligence was very much aware of who the real culprits were. If you listen to the video below of inquiry commission, the intelligence agent is clearly telling that Indian Intelligence agent was bribing the Canadian media to manipulate it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi9GhxjY_b8

Woods wrote:You should also ponder over the fact that Indians are hailed as educated, hard-working , intelligent , HONEST people wherever they go . It's only the system here that is nurturing corruption. If the corruption was a phenomena of a particular religious -psyche then it would be found wherever the person of that faith goes .
Educated, hard-working, intelligence or honesty is not limited to particular society. All kinds of people are found everywhere. But the real question is what kind of people are the ruling elite of that society. If you note my previous reply to stampmaster, there is no mention of religion. Please note the use of words, "solid cultural, social and historical background among the ruling elite of this land". When persons move out from the Indian sub continent to some other country, their ruling elite changes, they are into a different culture, different values and different society. All these make an impact on them.

Who creates the "system" in the Indian subcontinent? Is it not the ruling elite getting elected by the "majority"?

Woods wrote:Also , since independence this country has been governed by leftist/ pseudo-liberal / hate-mongering people much like you ( I am compelled to note) and it were they who have gifted us India in it's present form .
leftist/ pseudo-liberal and self styled nationalists are two sides of the same coin. Stage I of this country is over, it is now in Stage II, both were/ are equally complicit in both the stages.

If facts and truth are are so scary and need to be called "hate mongering", I am happy to be called hate mongerer.

Woods wrote:I think a healthy discussion is already swarming social media on these topics .
Yes very "healthy" when a twenty year old girl is silenced by threatening with rape and death for expressing her views.

Woods wrote:Let"s discuss gun and gun-rights here .
Already explained how deep rooted casteism is against gun rights. When people are not even allowed to twirl their moustaches or ride horses based on their caste, will they be allowed to carry guns?

Woods wrote:I would also like to say -- all have seen enough of this hate . None of us is going anywhere . India is the pool where every fish has to swim . Don't further pollute it . This is our Motherland as it is .It's for us to work for good or at least let others do.
For those if the truth is equal to hate, then what can be expected? Such people are scared of honesty to accept the facts and want to muzzle the truth. Once you recognize this, and the amount of pollution it is doing, most of the problems will be solved.

estousandy wrote:First, this is a thread about the much needed kicking out of INSAS.
There is another thread, where this topic has been almost done to death. If someone can post the link of that thread.

estousandy wrote:Second, it's quite clear where exactly this thread got polluted.
Rather than "polluted" it got enlightened when stampmaster mentioned "not to forget something in our DNA, SCAMS". Then it was clarified by me that it has nothing to do with DNA but with "solid cultural, social and historical background among the ruling elite of this land". It is really mystifying why some persons get disturbed by facts and perceiving the hard facts as "hate" or even better "hate mongering". Is it not reasonable to conclude that they certainly have more to hide?

estousandy wrote:Third, the systematic effort from ages towards disarming of Indian citizens of any weapon(arms, knowledge etc.) is quite well known
Very true and we must not be shy of exposing it in whatever form it exists or existed. As it rightly said those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it. Let us not let history to be forgotten under any color or pretext.

estousandy wrote: & such a hate filled topic definitely deserves another thread elsewhere.
Sorry, disagree that facts are equal to hate.

estousandy wrote:Let's here just stick to reasonably bashing INSAS for what it is not & what it barely is, and dissect whatever could replace it.
As already mentioned, there is another thread, where this topic has been almost done to death. If someone can post the link of that thread.


All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. - Friedrich Nietzsche

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estousandy
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Location: KL

Re: INSAS rifles to be retired, Indian Army to get foreign alternative

Postby estousandy » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:28 pm

goodboy_mentor wrote:
estousandy wrote: & such a hate filled topic definitely deserves another thread elsewhere.

Sorry, disagree that facts are equal to hate.


The "hate" is in italics GBM, purely meant to be in any sense but literal.

This is that other Insas thread, more like a review and technical than in any context of getting replaced.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9131


The most dangerous part of a gun is the loose nut behind the stock.

goodboy_mentor
Posts: 2764
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: INSAS rifles to be retired, Indian Army to get foreign alternative

Postby goodboy_mentor » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:49 pm

estousandy wrote:The "hate" is in italics GBM, purely meant to be in any sense but literal.
Thanks for clarifying what you actually meant. Sorry if invardently hurt the feelings.


All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. - Friedrich Nietzsche


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