Legal Space for Firearm Shooting

[aadhaulya]

Thanks GBM, I will check tomorrow itself if this increase can be sanctioned locally of will the file hve to go to Chandigarh for approval.

Regards

[goodboy_mentor]

You may contact the asla babu in office of LA. Increase of quota is usually done locally in office of LA.

[nagarifle]

find a safe area, with a good back drop to catch bullets, away from people and animals, let the local people know that from this time to that time you will be shooting in that area. have boundaries set out with red flags etc, even then always have lookouts watching out for those wondering into the area. let the local cops know or seek their opinion and invite them to join you first few times, make friends and not enemy.

play in safe play it long

[Chandan22]

Gentlemen,

Aadhaulya, your mail about firing away at the range was what prompted me to go over last week with my rifle. And thats where I met Samaresh Jung who was also practicing. I asked him to help me set up the electronic target and he told me that a fortnight or so ago there was a big fuss over "Shooters" spoiling the scoring systems and that the range officials don't allow open sight rifles on electronic systems and would give me a lot of trouble. Now since there were no Manual/Paper targets available, I put up a piece of paper on the last lane where there was not target set up/ or was broken/missing, and fired away for a couple of hours.

That said, its not the way I want to use the range. How can I even zero my rifle without a scoring system or even a manual target?

Plus as I have written before, I had filed and RTI with the range for details on how members should and are allowed to use the range, and there were no details provided at all.

DEV, as for range officers, I've not found ANYONE except the guards at the 50m range the last 3 weekends, and the 3rd time I met Samaresh who helped me zero my rifle and helpfully gave me the info.

So if they have issues with an open sight .22 in the 50m range, doubtful they would be happy with someone using a pistol/revolver in the 25m as well.

As for the shooting in permitted areas, we have all given opinions and our experience, but till now no one has been able to quote any specific law/guideline where it is clearly specified. As I said, the arms act does not also define this.

In my opinion, if i'm licenced to carry a weapon, I have the right to learn to use it and practise. Now if the shooting range doesn't permit me and the law doesn't specify where I can practise, what is the meaning of this?

All posts w.r.t being careful, neighbours, pollution etc are all valid points. But still not clarity on what the LAW says.

Goodboy_mentor... Dev said you're a lawyer, could you help us clear this up by looking through the arms act and seeing if you can find anything there that I may have missed in my legally inexperienced reading??

~C

[aadhaulya]

find a safe area, with a good back drop to catch bullets, away from people and animals, let the local people know that from this time to that time you will be shooting in that area. have boundaries set out with red flags etc, even then always have lookouts watching out for those wondering into the area. let the local cops know or seek their opinion and invite them to join you first few times, make friends and not enemy.

play in safe play it long

Chandan, the best solution according to me is given by 'nagarifle'.

I also feel that these "Mumbai' members would be having a good time. You could probably hire a boat and go out i the sea. I you find no one for miles around you, then you could fire away to your hearts content at floating targets that you could through around in the sea.
Maybe some one from Mumbai could share any down points (if any) in this method.

Regards

[nagarifle]

yes one could go out to sea, but watch out for mermaids as they can pop up any where.lol do not forget sounds travels great distant and the cost guards are always on the look out for intruders, something to think about,

what i feel is that, that there is no legal standing on the subject, how ever their are i am sure numbers of laws which states that one can not discharge firearms in public place or near settlements, however on a private property with adequate safety measures in place one could and can use ones firearms, however you will get concerned citizen who will report it to the police, so let the police know about it unless you are in a remote area or a very large private grounds.

[bennedose]

I also feel that these "Mumbai' members would be having a good time. You could probably hire a boat and go out i the sea. I you find no one for miles around you, then you could fire away to your hearts content at floating targets that you could through around in the sea.
Maybe some one from Mumbai could share any down points (if any) in this method.

Regards

In my view this is not advisable for several reasons

1. Indian licences are provided for carriage and use of a firearm within a limited geographic area. My licence was for my city alone - not for sea/mountain/other areas
2. There is at least one well known case (reported as a story in Reader's Digest many years ago) of a man who shot a can in water in a lake and the bullet skimmed the water, bounced off and killed a woman many miles away who was totally out of sight. Shooting at objects in water thinking that no one is within visible range is a violation of basic safety norms - like shooting in the air.
3. Times have changed. If you are spotted shooting a gun in a boat offshore- you could arrested (at best) or shot (which sounds worse to me)

As an aside - in the early eighties I used to carry a high powered air rifle openly in the UK and shoot it in public sight using a suitable backstop (I have photos). In the early 2000s I saw someone being arrested for simply carrying an air rifle in the open. In the seventies, in college in a seaside town in India we would spend nights on the beach doing questionable things. By the nineties people are driven off the beach at night and threatened with arrest in the same areas.

The Mumbai attacks of 2008 changed a lot of things.

[aadhaulya]

I read the story in the 'Reader's Digest' where the person was driving on the road along the sea and got shot.

Well this is India, you can buy three guns but can't shoot them anywhere.

[goodboy_mentor]

Goodboy_mentor... Dev said you're a lawyer, could you help us clear this up by looking through the arms act and seeing if you can find anything there that I may have missed in my legally inexperienced reading??

~C

Chandan22 it is immaterial and irrelevant what one says or perceives me to be. What is most important is that no one should not remain under some misconceived notions or ideas that may create legal problems for oneself or those around or anyone reading this forum. Interpreting law is not like interpreting how 2+2 = 4. That is why I suggested you sit with an experienced lawyer, face to face and clarify all your doubts. As per realist theory of law, law is how it is really implemented and not how it is printed in statute books. That is why I clearly mentioned possible consequences of discharging firearms at any place other than proper shooting range, following gun safety rules of the range. I mention the problems again -
1. arrest
2. confiscation of the gun
3. revocation of the arms license
4. fine
5. jail

Courts have enough powers to interpret laws which can go beyond just the plain meaning of printed text of laws. One of the methods for interpretation of provisions of law is by determining what mischief the law is targeting. Besides other purposes, Arms Act is also targeting mischief to public peace and public safety. That is why offenses under this Act have been made cognizable. It means police does not need an arrest warrant to arrest a person committing offense under Arms Act. That is why there are so many prohibitions and restrictions, including prohibiting licenses to persons below 21 years age, of unsound mind, of criminal antecedents or convicted and the like. When arms license holder is creating danger to public peace or public safety by discharging his gun at any place other than proper shooting range, then what is the difference between him and mischief done by prohibited persons? He is doing nothing but attracting all the consequences that come with violation of Arms Act.

[dev]

Gentlemen,

DEV, as for range officers, I've not found ANYONE except the guards at the 50m range the last 3 weekends, and the 3rd time I met Samaresh who helped me zero my rifle and helpfully gave me the info.
~C

Dear Chandan,

I was speaking about the 25m range and that also circa last year.
While I get your angst, the situation is the way it is.
Don't go shooting at windmills.

Most of us can't shoot our firearms as much as we'd like to.
That is when an airgun comes in. If you are really itching to use the range then borrow a peep sight free or standard rifle from the range and blast away.
Don't mess with the arms act and or reach conclusions of interpretations of the rules.
It can get one into a real mess and a life changing scenario.

Regards,

Dev

[dr.jayakumar]

find a safe area, with a good back drop to catch bullets, away from people and animals, let the local people know that from this time to that time you will be shooting in that area. have boundaries set out with red flags etc, even then always have lookouts watching out for those wondering into the area. let the local cops know or seek their opinion and invite them to join you first few times, make friends and not enemy.

play in safe play it long

regards
dr.jk

[nagarifle]

It can get one into a real mess and a life changing scenario.

worse then having wife and two screaming kids

[Chandan22]

Gentlemen,

GBM, Dev, Naga, perhaps I've given the wrong impression of my objectives in between these posts.. I'm not itching to take on the might of the law and display righteous indignation at not being allowed to fire away just because its a grey area. Karni singh is conveniently accessible to me, and hopefully once I find my way around the numerous hurdles there it should serve satisfactorily to fulfill my desire to shoot.

GBM's mail does make it abundantly clear that the scope of harassment under the law is immense. Even complete innocents are put through the grinder if LE gets it into their heads to do so. So why poke a sleeping giant ?

that said, it was an interesting question which begged answers, because it could open up a vista of opportunities for firing outside the range, may I mention within the bounds of safety. and truly speaking, there is no real answer even now.

And while this question may not be easily answered in black and white, at least others may get clarified, which will help in protecting my rights as a citizen and firearms aficionado, by dispelling ignorance about the law and providing a firm foundation on which I can take a factually correct stand.

Getting my licence took a mere 2 months from application, but I spent 2 years researching and preparing the ground work, just to ensure that I did everything as per the law and that I could not be denied on whims and fancies of authorities. That's practically the same thought that motivated this question.

Anyways, I guess this discussion is more or less closed. I'm keen on getting together some folks in Delhi/NCR to meet up and shoot at the range with some regularity. That should serve to leave the answer to this question in irrelevance...

~C

[nagarifle]

hey no offence were taken or given, we just love to get emotional with the law issue .lol

you have asked a very good question, which begged to be answered,

[goodboy_mentor]

that said, it was an interesting question which begged answers, because it could open up a vista of opportunities for firing outside the range, may I mention within the bounds of safety. and truly speaking, there is no real answer even now.

If it is public property or public place there is no right or question of discharging the gun. Public property means any property owned by public i.e. the State. Example - forests, jungles, public parks, open common grounds etc. Public place can include any place that may include private property, were public is allowed to enter. Example - privately owned hospitals, hotels etc.

Since any and every member of public has right to be present at any and every place in public property or place, including the path taken by bullet from your gun to the target or behind it, you have no right to discharge the gun. It is as simple as that. It is exactly because of this, even the armed forces or police have no right to discharge their guns at any public property or place, except only as allowed by the law.

The only exception to discharging the gun at public property or public place is only as allowed by the law, that is when enforcing the law. In other words, only when your life and liberty is under reasonable and imminent danger as mentioned from Sections 96 to 106 IPC. Then you are enforcing the law for your private defense as part of law enforcement machinery in private/ personal capacity and control. For better understanding, the judgment of Supreme Court for Darshan Singh vs. State of Punjab can be referred. It can be read here http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1748156/

Even in your own private property you have no right to discharge the gun in a manner that can endanger, hurt or injure the rights of public. For example firing towards the sky. To put this controversy to rest, there are High Court judgments related to this.

As to the question of setting up a shooting range in private property, either for private use or public access, all related laws have to be complied with. For that one needs to sit with an experienced lawyer.

Getting my licence took a mere 2 months from application, but I spent 2 years researching and preparing the ground work, just to ensure that I did everything as per the law and that I could not be denied on whims and fancies of authorities. That's practically the same thought that motivated this question.

If you think all right, would you like to share what you did that ensured that license could not be denied on whims and fancies of licensing authority.