Myth: Gun Control Reduces Crime

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amk
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Re: Myth: Gun Control Reduces Crime

Post by amk » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:17 pm

hamiclar01";p="37865 wrote:
amk";p="37843 wrote: These are very few countries Abhi; the majority of the developed countries have ultra strict laws. I used to live in the UK, I couldn't even imagine owning a handgun there
you can't own a handgun in u.k. if you are a civilian. however, getting a shotgun and rifle license is much fairer and a lot easier than in india. you don't even need a british passport for it.
I would look rather silly with a shotgun tucked under my coat walking around Piccadilly Circus :-) Or I would've met the fate of the poor Brazilian!!!

AMK

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Re: Myth: Gun Control Reduces Crime

Post by kanwar76 » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:26 pm

amk";p="37873 wrote:
hamiclar01";p="37865 wrote:
amk";p="37843 wrote: These are very few countries Abhi; the majority of the developed countries have ultra strict laws. I used to live in the UK, I couldn't even imagine owning a handgun there
you can't own a handgun in u.k. if you are a civilian. however, getting a shotgun and rifle license is much fairer and a lot easier than in india. you don't even need a british passport for it.
I would've met the fate of the poor Brazilian!!!

AMK


Hmmmm if thats the case then odd are way higher in your Mumbai than in UK.. I am sure there are few cops in UK who boasts of "Ab tak chappan..." :roll:

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Post by mundaire » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:06 pm

amk";p="37873 wrote:I would look rather silly with a shotgun tucked under my coat walking around Piccadilly Circus :-) Or I would've met the fate of the poor Brazilian!!!

AMK
AMK, as Hamiclar pointed out owning a rifle or shotgun is a zillion times easier (and cheaper) in the UK than it is in India. I suspect your comment stems from the assumption that you would be carrying the gun for self defence? Well, let me clarify here that using even a licensed gun for self/ home defence is NOT ALLOWED as per UK law. Self defence is NOT considered a valid reason for gun ownership (only sport/ hunting/ collecting is), therefore if you were to use your shotgun to defend yourself against even a home intruder (in the UK) you would be prosecuted and almost certainly go to jail... AFAIK there are recorded incidents wherein a home owner did in fact use his shotgun to shoot an intruder (or two) and went to jail afterwards...

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Abhijeet
Last edited by mundaire on Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by nagarifle » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:38 am

yes in the uk, firearms used for protaction are no no. as the cops can take care of u if under threat. :)

one farmer did shoot at two intruders in his house with his shotgun, he got jailed. :cry: :cry: it is now the case in uk that an englenders home is not his castle any more. :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

the CO19 firearms team state that firearms for protection is a no no.

open carry of firearms will invite big boys with big guns from the met police on ground. as the people will get scared.

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Post by amk » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:15 am

Guys, I passed that remark as a joke; not meant to be taken seriously.

I was living in Surrey when the poor farmer shot 2 teenage hooligans who broke in. There was public and media outcry at the treatment meted out to the poor farmer. He had been burgled on many occasions (apparently by the same fellas) and this time he decided to put an end to it.

My point is; Yeah laws and procedures are screwed up in our country but it can be worse in many other places we consider progressive and free".
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Re: Myth: Gun Control Reduces Crime

Post by hamiclar01 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:31 pm

amk";p="37873 wrote: I would look rather silly with a shotgun tucked under my coat walking around Piccadilly Circus :-) Or I would've met the fate of the poor Brazilian!!!

AMK
:shock:

i'm sorry i didn't get your joke. why would you want to even think of walking around picadilly circus with a shotgun, considering that we are a forum devoted to responsible gun ownership.

by the very nature of a gun itself, it is regulated by strict laws in most countries, including the progressive ones you are deriding. however, in spite of so called stricter gun laws, the degree of fairness among the licensing authorities, and the safe and mature way licensing, selling, shooting (most!) goes about lawfully, is a situation we can never compare to india.
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Post by mundaire » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:13 pm

amk";p="37931 wrote:My point is; Yeah laws and procedures are screwed up in our country but it can be worse in many other places we consider progressive and free.
Not really, the all pervading cancer of corruption that ails our institutions is very much a part of the licensing system for firearms as well. Unless one is doggedly determined, combine with a good dose of luck, arms applications require either money or "pull" to be pushed through. How is it that mafia dons with several pending cases against them manage to get several arms licenses on the names of their wives/ relatives while an honest law abiding engineer (for example), earning an honest living and going about applying for his license without offering anyone a bribe is denied - with insufficient reasons given for owning a firearm quoted as the reason for denial?

Who is to decide whether one has sufficient reason? And why so much discretionary power if it is to be abused so blatantly? Should a law abiding citizen of a free country not have the right to determine whether or not he would feel safer with a firearm without having to prove some sort of direct threat to his life? Is the deteriorating law & order situation in India not be reason enough for him to take preventive action by arming and training himself? What if he just wants to indulge in some occasional plinking with a rifle? Does he by FORCE have to participate in ISSF style competitions (in which he has no interest) just to prove that he'd like to make the occasional trip to the range for some fun?

If we are a democracy and base our style of government on the premise that citizens given the right to choose their own government (and destiny) will make responsible choices - then why do we forget this premise and treat applicants for gun licenses in the reverse manner, presuming them to be irresponsible unless proven otherwise? Free and fair laws and judicial systems presume an accused to be innocent unless proven guilty, then why do we take the other direction and presume arms license applicants as guilty unless proven innocent?

Do you really believe that a poor farmer living in a village 25-30 km from the nearest police station, has no need for a firearm to protect himself/ his family/ home against possible assailants? Or are we so elitist as a society to consider his life/ his families lives/ safety to be not important enough to deserve any protection? Do you think that under the current licensing regime he'd be just able to walk into the DM/ SDM's office and walk out with a license - without having to shell out money/ apply pull? What if he has access to neither? Would he not be tempted to pick up a cheap country made firearm as some basic form of protection and then hope that if the need arises the damn thing doesn't blow up in his hands!!

1. Make the arms licensing process objective and fair - no licenses for people with criminal antecedents, mental illnesses or no safe place to store a firearm. For everyone else it should be automatically given on the successful completion of a firearms handling/ gun safety course.

2. Make proper firearms training mandatory (see above)

3. Make available shooting ranges at every tehsil or at least district level and provide subsidised ammunition to everyone at the range. Gun owners competent in using their firearm are an asset to society, a gun owner who does not know how to handle his gun safely/ accurately is a liability. The Swiss government follows this policy and anyone can go to a firing range and shoot cheap ammo there to keep their skills honed to decent levels, which is why the Swiss have always been renown as some of the best rifle marksmen in Europe! BTW how much violent crime do you think occurs in Switzerland? Do you think a burgler is going to want to break into the house of someone when he knows there is a 50-50 chance that the resident will be armed and trained damn well in how to use his firearms?

4. Do away with the government monopoly on handgun/ rifle and ammunition production - allow for the entry of big private players into this field

5. Open the import of arms and ammuntion - on a commercial basis. If the super NO-NO (anyone over 30 would recall those days) import of cars has been done away with, what's the logic behind restricting the import of arms & ammo? Are we to suffer IOFB made junk forever?

6. Remove the silly prohibition on service calibres! If we do not trust our men in uniform, from whom we expect that they will be ready to lay down their lives for the tricolour... if assume that they would be black marketing service ammo, then it's a sorry state of affairs indeed!

I'd say if these 6 points are followed, it'd be a good start...

Cheers!
Abhijeet
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Post by nagarifle » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:16 pm

ha ha ha, funny but true. :lol: :lol: :lol: the farmer got jailed. did not gt perol becouse he said that he will do the same again.

in most place open carry of firearms in public place is against the law, ie usa , most if not all state law, says that no carry of arms (leagl ones) near school, hospital etc.

now here in sunny India, open carry is not much of problem. i believe.

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Post by nagarifle » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:39 pm

hi Abhijeet
u got there before my post did, seconds before, fast on the trigger i believe. :) :)

your six points are well vaild. but unless we can put them in to action, they will remain just good points. i do not mean to put u down by saying this.

but i believe we both have the same aim here. :) and we need to force this issue via leagl means.

but there are no pro RKBA pressur groups here in India which am aware of. However there are, as we know groups who would have done away with RKBA.

Even the NRAI are of little use here as they have there own system. Which is not for the normal citizens :evil: :evil:

if we do not watch out, we may be made victaims of some such Anti-RKBA groups.

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Re: Myth: Gun Control Reduces Crime

Post by amk » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:40 pm

hamiclar01";p="37941 wrote:
amk";p="37873 wrote: I would look rather silly with a shotgun tucked under my coat walking around Piccadilly Circus :-) Or I would've met the fate of the poor Brazilian!!!

AMK
:shock:

i'm sorry i didn't get your joke. why would you want to even think of walking around picadilly circus with a shotgun, considering that we are a forum devoted to responsible gun ownership.

by the very nature of a gun itself, it is regulated by strict laws in most countries, including the progressive ones you are deriding. however, in spite of so called stricter gun laws, the degree of fairness among the licensing authorities, and the safe and mature way licensing, selling, shooting (most!) goes about lawfully, is a situation we can never compare to india.
Hamiclar, since handguns are virtually banned, I thought of carrying a shotgun for personal protection. The areas around Piccadilly Circus weren't the safest when I used to frequent them. (Note: This is tongue in cheek again).

Your idea of gun ownership is different from mine. You are interested in firearms for hunting and for sport. I am interested in firearms for personal/family/property protection.

AMK

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Post by amk » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:08 pm

Abhi, I hear you and agree with most of your points. However my point is that we are better off here than in other progressive countries where firearm ownership is almost impossible. From my perspective firearms means handguns or long guns for personal protection; not hunting/sports.

AMK
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Post by nagarifle » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:25 pm

Hi amk
would u not agree that firearms are firearms, :lol: regardless of the use made thereof.

even in India one can not normaly get firearms for protaction unless a known threat is there.

u would have to agree that the firearms are firearms. :lol: :lol:

would u not agree that if one uses firearms for hunting or self defence , that is the purpose of use of the firearms.

thus firearms does not mean or imply protection. :cry: :cry:

hope ur a little chessed off :? :wink:

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Post by amk » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:47 pm

I don't totally agree with you Nagarifle. But that's how we are; agree to disagree but all get along just fine :-) Nah, I'm not cheesed off, I was bracing myself for some fiery replies ;-)
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Post by paragvns » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:12 pm

That was a very good one abhijeet most of us will agree with all the 6 points, but how do we make our lawmakers realise that responsible gun ownership actually curbs voilance instead the other way round.
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Post by mundaire » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:23 pm

paragvns";p="38016 wrote:That was a very good one abhijeet most of us will agree with all the 6 points, but how do we make our lawmakers realise that responsible gun ownership actually curbs voilance instead the other way round.
As a start try to get the idea across to people who form public opinion (the media) and those who form policy (elected representatives). Write to MP's, respond to any article on guns/ gun control by writing in to the reporter/ editor of the newspaper/ magazine etc. If no one speaks up, who will even know we are here? IANSA is pumping in money and support to the anti-gun movement in India, we have no such external support - so we must begin to help ourselves in stead of waiting for someone to come "liberate" us! To quote a cliché - even god helps those who help themselves...

I am not an expert on lobbying, just using common sense here...

Cheers!
Abhijeet
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