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New gun mantra- India Today Article on Arms Rules-2016

Discussions on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.
ashokpkl
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Re: New gun mantra- India Today Article on Arms Rules-2016

Postby ashokpkl » Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:09 pm

Agreed. At least Airguns should be free from licensing !!! But writing too does no harm.


Ashok Vashisht

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jatindra Singh Deo
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Re: New gun mantra- India Today Article on Arms Rules-2016

Postby jatindra Singh Deo » Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:00 am

goodboy_mentor wrote:
jatindra Singh Deo wrote:"Unarmed Protestor " "Dispropertionate force " for the blood thirsty crowds living off state largese sounds exactly like the propaganda saying pellet guns are lethal weapons !
While you are entitled to your personal and political views but the legal facts remain whatever they are. Let us forget this matter for a moment, will any court of law in this country forgive you for firing on an unarmed person? Ask your self.


No intending to divert the motive of this thread ,but Let us not delude our selves of this unarmed kitsch shall we ,we are all grown up here .Its not about political views , asserting the primacy of law and sovereignty of my country is not representing political views .We all may have a grouse ,which state doesn't ? I am seriously aggrieved at the gun laws and I have a right to it , look at the Mizo's after being bombed (have look at the article below )

And now if you talk of the famous and flimsy K grouse the answer is here :

Image

Here goes your theory of unarmed poor civilians :

Image



goodboy_mentor
Posts: 2879
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Re: New gun mantra- India Today Article on Arms Rules-2016

Postby goodboy_mentor » Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:24 pm

jatindra Singh Deo wrote:
goodboy_mentor wrote:
jatindra Singh Deo wrote:"Unarmed Protestor " "Dispropertionate force " for the blood thirsty crowds living off state largese sounds exactly like the propaganda saying pellet guns are lethal weapons !
While you are entitled to your personal and political views but the legal facts remain whatever they are. Let us forget this matter for a moment, will any court of law in this country forgive you for firing on an unarmed person? Ask your self.


No intending to divert the motive of this thread ,but Let us not delude our selves of this unarmed kitsch shall we ,we are all grown up here .Its not about political views , asserting the primacy of law and sovereignty of my country is not representing political views .We all may have a grouse ,which state doesn't ? I am seriously aggrieved at the gun laws and I have a right to it , look at the Mizo's after being bombed (have look at the article below )

And now if you talk of the famous and flimsy K grouse the answer is here :

Image

Here goes your theory of unarmed poor civilians :

Image
As said earlier all these are your personal and political views and have nothing to do with facts of law, justice or sovereignty. The law is very clear, it does not allow firing on unarmed persons and sovereignty is no license or justification to violate the law. But unfortunately that is what you are trying to justify.

It appears that you are trying to justify your personal and political views by citing some political propaganda. Why I am calling it political propaganda? Because what is mentioned in those two links you have posted above, have nothing mentioned related to law points or justice. The first one is so pathetic and unreasonable that it implicitly justifies bombing of civilians by government and then talks of "peace" in that State. Indirectly it is trying to say that citizens of this country should be ready to be bombed by government and be happy and "peaceful" after these barbaric acts. If they demand their civil or political rights then it is a "grouse" against the State. What a pathetic argument. No law can justify bombing of civilians. Even "sovereignty" is no legal defense for bombing or killing civilians.

Then it goes on to say that there is "peace" in the States that once had insurgencies or rebellions. Is it the kind of "peace" that is found in the graveyards? What kind of "peace" is in those States is well known to the people of those States. Not very surprisingly these States now have abundant flow of drugs, alcohol, systematic destruction of local economies destroying local cultures, and causing linguistic, social and demographic engineering. For example Punjab has around 21 districts and has almost 41 distilleries and breweries. And estimated roughly around 5 million unemployed youth. So almost every district has almost two distilleries or breweries to "help" them live in "peace". All this is clearly against the Directive Principles of State Policy. Article 47 of Constitution of India clearly mandating that State shall endeavour to bring about prohibition of the consumption except for medicinal purposes of intoxicating drinks and of drugs which are injurious to health. There are no prizes for guessing who are the masterminds and wise men behind all this never ending mess. And the ideas of these wise men are certainly changing the "course of history". Who can help prevent the change in "course of history" when such wise men are already there? Probably this Machiavellian formula of temporary and superficial "peace" has not or cannot work in Kashmir and hence their continuous "grouse".

The second link that purports to display a telegram appears a very clever but pathetic work of counterfeiting and politically motivated propaganda. The "telegram" is describing about the recent situation in Kashmir in a politically colored manner and urging by sarcastic imputation to Mr. Modi to do more of what is already being done. But the person who posted the picture of the "telegram" probably forgot that telegram services have been permanently shut down by the department of posts since July 2013 and Mr. Modi was not Prime Minister in 2013.


"If my mother tongue is shaking the foundations of your State, it probably means that you built your State on my land" - Musa Anter, Kurdish writer, assassinated by the Turkish secret services in 1992

jatindra Singh Deo
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:59 pm

Re: New gun mantra- India Today Article on Arms Rules-2016

Postby jatindra Singh Deo » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:43 pm

goodboy_mentor wrote:
jatindra Singh Deo wrote:
goodboy_mentor wrote:While you are entitled to your personal and political views but the legal facts remain whatever they are. Let us forget this matter for a moment, will any court of law in this country forgive you for firing on an unarmed person? Ask your self.


No intending to divert the motive of this thread ,but Let us not delude our selves of this unarmed kitsch shall we ,we are all grown up here .Its not about political views , asserting the primacy of law and sovereignty of my country is not representing political views .We all may have a grouse ,which state doesn't ? I am seriously aggrieved at the gun laws and I have a right to it , look at the Mizo's after being bombed (have look at the article below )

And now if you talk of the famous and flimsy K grouse the answer is here :

Image

Here goes your theory of unarmed poor civilians :

Image


As said earlier all these are your personal and political views and have nothing to do with facts of law, justice or sovereignty. The law is very clear, it does not allow firing on unarmed persons and sovereignty is no license or justification to violate the law. But unfortunately that is what you are trying to justify.[/shadow]

It appears that you are trying to justify your personal and political views by citing some political propaganda. Why I am calling it political propaganda? Because what is mentioned in those two links you have posted above, have nothing mentioned related to law points or justice. The first one is so pathetic and unreasonable that it implicitly justifies bombing of civilians by government and then talks of "peace" in that State. Indirectly it is trying to say that citizens of this country should be ready to be bombed by government and be happy and "peaceful" after these barbaric acts. If they demand their civil or political rights then it is a "grouse" against the State. What a pathetic argument. No law can justify bombing of civilians. Even "sovereignty" is no legal defense for bombing or killing civilians.

Then it goes on to say that there is "peace" in the States that once had insurgencies or rebellions. Is it the kind of "peace" that is found in the graveyards? What kind of "peace" is in those States is well known to the people of those States. Not very surprisingly these States now have abundant flow of drugs, alcohol, systematic destruction of local economies destroying local cultures, and causing linguistic, social and demographic engineering. For example Punjab has around 21 districts and has almost 41 distilleries and breweries. And estimated roughly around 5 million unemployed youth. So almost every district has almost two distilleries or breweries to "help" them live in "peace". All this is clearly against the Directive Principles of State Policy. Article 47 of Constitution of Indiaclearly mandating that State shall endeavour to bring about prohibition of the consumption except for medicinal purposes of intoxicating drinks and of drugs which are injurious to health. There are no prizes for guessing who are the masterminds and wise men behind all this never ending mess. And the ideas of these wise men are certainly changing the "course of history". Who can help prevent the change in "course of history" when such wise men are already there? Probably this Machiavellian formula of temporary and superficial "peace" has not or cannot work in Kashmir and hence their continuous "grouse".

The second link that purports to display a telegram appears a very clever but pathetic work of counterfeiting and politically motivated propaganda. The "telegram" is describing about the recent situation in Kashmir in a politically colored manner and urging by sarcastic imputation to Mr. Modi to do more of what is already being done. But the person who posted the picture of the "telegram" probably forgot that telegram services have been permanently shut down by the department of posts since July 2013 and Mr. Modi was not Prime Minister in 2013.



Let me have a look at some of the premise of your argument and some assumptions you made on the content of my post :

1."The law is very clear, it does not allow firing on unarmed persons "

Here are some media reports :

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Terrorists-switch-tactics-lob-grenades-at-securitymen-from-behind-stone-pelters/articleshow/53183182.cms

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-kashmir-policeman-feared-killed-as-mob-pushes-police-vehicle-into-river-jhelum-2233051

And I can quote umpteen reports of the same to point at the gandhian protestors (sic) that you are so deftly trying to eulogize.In the words of Capt
Gaurav Arya recently in the news for his response to these bleeding heart fifth column of the Pak army in the media:

"These protestors and stone throwers never target a large cantonment or large presence of security forces. They pick a BSF or CRPF picket, which
may have ten to 15 people or more. Then they get a mob of hundreds of people to surround the picket and start pelting stones. Women and
children are placed in front. As the mob advances, the pressure inside the picket grows. Firing starts and in the smoke, sound, pressure and
confusion a bullet or rubber pellet hits a child, because the child is placed right in front of the soldiers. The child dies."


The bravery is so obvious isnt it ?

2. "first one is so pathetic and unreasonable that it implicitly justifies bombing of civilians by government and then talks of "peace" in that State.
Indirectly it is trying to say that citizens of this country should be ready to be bombed by government and be happy and "peaceful" after these
barbaric acts"

This is a poor attempt at manipulation of facts and statements at hand to build a non existent counter narrative .The first posted material clearly
condemns the Indian Govenments actions and particularly that of Indira Gandhi by comparing them to Cambodia-like near zero camps .And despite
such condemnable actions of the past regime ,the amazing platform the Mizo have built for their future.

3. "But the person who posted the picture of the "telegram" probably forgot that telegram services have been permanently shut down by the
department of posts since July 2013 and Mr. Modi was not Prime Minister in 2013."

Well isnt that obvious ? (Sic) Metaphors are powerfull tool of exposing calumny ,guess you missed it (sic).Wasn't the telegram a allegory to the
state of affairs over the kashmiri hullaballu ?

4. As a student and professional practicing analytics ,let me form a wordcloud of the interpretations and justifications made by you clinging on to
vague semantics of law constitution (and make up those fantastic false equivalence) and do a time series analysis :


"It appears that you are trying to justify your personal and political views by citing some political propaganda. Why I am calling it political
propaganda
? Because what is mentioned in those two links you have posted above, have nothing mentioned related to law points or justice."

"The second link that purports to display a telegram appears a very clever but pathetic work of counterfeiting and politically motivated
propaganda."

"Then it goes on to say that there is "peace" in the States that once had insurgencies or rebellions. Is it the kind of "peace" that is found in the
graveyards? What kind of "peace" is in those States is well known to the people of those States. Not very surprisingly these States now have
abundant flow of drugs, alcohol, systematic destruction of local economies destroying local cultures, and causing linguistic, social and
demographic engineering.For example Punjab has around 21 districts and has almost 41 distilleries and breweries. And estimated roughly around 5
million unemployed youth. So almost every district has almost two distilleries or breweries to "help" them live in "peace" All this is clearly against
the Directive Principles of State Policy. Article 47 of Constitution of India clearly mandating that State shall endeavour to bring about prohibition
of the consumption except for medicinal purposes of intoxicating drinks and of drugs which are injurious to health. There are no prizes for
guessing who are the masterminds and wise men behind all this never ending mess. And the ideas of these wise men are certainly changing the
"course of history". Who can help prevent the change in "course of history" when such wise men are already there? Probably this Machiavellian
formula of temporary and superficial "peace" has not or cannot work in Kashmir and hence their continuous "grouse"


"Political propaganda " has been a constant rhetoric you use to any fact or material presented and in the same breath draw tons of false
equivalence without batting an eyelid based of guesswork ,random unrelated statistics .All this ignoring and glossing the vast wealth of history
on the militancy in punjab and its origin in the abominable "land of peace" across our western borders and how proud Punjabi's are as Indians
.Well lets draw equivalence with the perpetrators across our western borders and how they treat the Balochs ,the sindhis ,pashtuns ,hazaras and
other minorities .And with the rest of our neighborhood who are constantly in the news for their (mis)treatment of minorities. Conviniently
overlooking the rape ,murder and genocide of Kashmiri Pandits ,700000 of whom live in exile in their own home land !! And go ahead and
declare this a political propaganda !!Well if this poor attempt at building a non existent narrative is classic copybook "Machiavellian" ,while
throwing in some directive principles from the constitution for the photo op .Reminds me closely of the methodology a radical preacher uses
recently in the news currently on the run while demeaning everything other philosophy under the sun using such false equivalence.

In the words of captain Arya :

"The primary (and only) supporter of Kashmir’s secession from India is a nuclear proliferator, a global leader in exporting terrorism
and an international migraine. All these fine words from Pakistan’s chief ally in the war on terror, the US of A.
Think of Pakistan as an Urdu speaking North Korea.Are Kashmiris really so naïve as to believe that IF Kashmir achieves this so-called “azaadi”,
Pakistan will quietly step back and allow Kashmir to be independent? Has Pakistan crushed the aspirations of Punjabis, Sindhis, Baluchis,
Pashtun, Hazaras and other citizens of Pakistan for 70 years so that Kashmiris can walk into the sunset with music playing in the background? No
Sir. For Pakistan,this is the biggest property deal in living memory, Kashmiris be damned."

Heres a recent video from POK might be of interest to you:

https://amp.twimg.com/v/41c06658-1b38-4 ... 75a9531da0

I will end this with a quote from man in uniform who does more than his bit to keep my kith and kin safe :

"Burhan Wani’s successor has a code name – Mehmood Ghaznavi. They could have named him Changez Khan and he would still have a remarkably
short shelf life. A 7.62 mm full metal jacket round does not respect fancy historical names. The 7.9 g (122 gr) projectile flies at 2350 feet per
second and destroys whatever it comes into contact with. Mehmood Ghaznavi, the moment you were declared successor, you were a dead man.
They have started hunting you. They will kill you. Soon."

Well the more than a grand I pay for my annual taxes ,seems to be well spent in kashmir !!

Added in 9 minutes 12 seconds:
Throwing in Major aryas complete post (and expecting this thread to be marked as political anonymously !! ) :

Dear Departed,

Ever since you were terminated in a forces-led operation in the Valley, 23 people have died. I don’t know why they died. The majority were possibly overcome with grief and fury and wanted to avenge your death. That did not happen, for obvious reasons. A policeman was thrown along with his vehicle into a river and he drowned. I grieve with your family and with the families of all those who lost their lives. Despicable though you may have been, I cannot find it in my heart to blame your family.

You could have been an engineer, a doctor, an archeologist or a software programmer but your fate drew you to the seductive world of social media, with its instant celebrity hood and all encompassing fame. You posted pictures on the internet with your “brothers”, all you fine young Rambos holding assault rifles and radio sets. It was right out of Hollywood. Your rifle’s fire selector switch was set to “safe” and your weapon rested on your shoulder. I know it’s too late to advise you on such matters, but NEVER do that in an operational area.

The day you started with your social media blitzkrieg, you were a dead man. You encouraged young men of Kashmir to kill Indian soldiers, all from behind the safety of your Facebook account. Your female fan following was delirious. You were a social media rage. Unknown to you, there was probably some nerd with a laptop sitting in HQ XV Corps, tracking you 24/7. You died when you were 22. Had you survived this operation, you would have died when you were 23. Just a different date on the calendar, that’s all. The intensity of violence and the result would have been the same.

I wish we had met and I could have explained to you (before killing you) that the old men of the Hurriyat Conference are like leech. They feed on the blood of men. They send young Kashmiris to face the Indian Army. What sort of a war is this, where lambs are sent to fight lions?

I would have shown you the sheer duplicity of the Hurriyat, with their sons living abroad, pursuing professions other than jihad. Name one relative of Syed Ali Geelani, the head of the Hurriyat Conference, who is fighting the so-called Indian “occupation”? His son Nayeem Geelani is a doctor in Rawalpindi, and lives under the patronage of the Pakistani ISI. Zahoor, his second son, lives in South Delhi. Mirwaiz Umar Farooq’s sister Rabia is a doctor in the US. Mariyam Andrabi, sister of head of the radical Dukhtran-e-Millat, Asiya Andrabi, along with her family lives in Malaysia. Every Kashmiri separatist leader’s daughter or son is rich and safe, outside Kashmir. Jihad is for other people’s sons.

And your parent’s son is dead. Dead from a 7.62 mm full metal jacket round to the head.

Kashmir’s young and restless blame the security forces for killing them. But they never question the Hurriyat. No one asks Syed Ali Geelani why Burhan Wani is not from his family.

Pakistani media was ecstatic when Kashmiris celebrated Eid this year along with Pakistan and not with the rest of India. This was reported as a blow to the unity of India. This is the first time in the 1400 year history of Islam that Eid was declared, not by witnessing the Shawwal moon, but by looking towards Pakistan. Well done.

The Hurriyat has nothing to do with Kashmiris. This unrest, this bloodshed is just another business. If not, I would like to see the list of martyrs from the Hurriyat leadership’s families.

The Hurriyat knows too well that Kashmir has fallen off the map of the world’s attention. No one cares and everyone knows that it is an artificially manufactured conflict. The Kashmir dispute exists because it is an inexpensive way for Pakistan to keep Indian forces bogged down in the valley.

You were a terrorist. You chose to wage war against India. Like for all other such perpetrators in the past, it didn’t go too well for you. When you choose to fight against the Indian Army, know this; THEY WILL KILL YOU.

Your supporters now want blood. So be it.

Cheers……!!
Major Gaurav Arya (Veteran)



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mundaire
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Re: New gun mantra- India Today Article on Arms Rules-2016

Postby mundaire » Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:25 pm

Gentlemen, this is going completely OT and political. If you wish to discuss (non-gun rights related) politics, this IS NOT the forum to do so.

Cheers!


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Re: New gun mantra- India Today Article on Arms Rules-2016

Postby goodboy_mentor » Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:20 pm

It is well settled matter of law firing on unarmed persons and using disproportionate force is unlawful. Despite your attempts to divert the discussion and propagating your personal and political ideology, the legal facts remain what they are. Quoting some personal views of a soldier that matches yours and portraying them as "facts" is not going to change this. In any conflict both sides indulge in telling lies and try to pass them on as "facts". Basic principle of natural justice is audi alteram partem i.e. that both sides should be heard. Just presenting one side of the story is nothing but propaganda, which the links posted by you are exactly trying to do.

Even there are many judgments of Supreme Court related to this type of matter. Also Supreme Court has acknowledged security forces do indulge in deliberate killings of innocents. Certainly Supreme Court is not "eulogizing" anyone by acknowledging the facts and truth. Or maybe one day your political ideology will say Supreme Court is "eulogizing" or supporting a particular entity by speaking the truth. Good luck to such a political ideology and let us see in which direction it takes the Indian sub continent to. Genocides running into more than million dead conducted with help of security forces is a well documented fact and is in public domain on internet. You may read the following post viewtopic.php?f=13&t=24170#p240075 Security forces using civilians as human shields is also documented and in public domain on the internet.

This is a poor attempt at manipulation of facts and statements at hand to build a non existent counter narrative .The first posted material clearly condemns the Indian Govenments actions and particularly that of Indira Gandhi by comparing them to Cambodia-like near zero camps .And despite such condemnable actions of the past regime ,the amazing platform the Mizo have built for their future.
What a brilliant justification of a crime, just condemn it and forget it. Condemnation means nothing. Is condemnation enough and end of the story for any crime especially such serious crimes? Then we must scrap all the laws and justice system. Whenever any crime will happen, it will just be condemned verbally and the accused will be allowed to go free without any trial.
Well isnt that obvious ? (Sic) Metaphors are powerfull tool of exposing calumny ,guess you missed it (sic).Wasn't the telegram a allegory to the
state of affairs over the kashmiri hullaballu ?
Well it is certainly obvious the creator of the "telegram" is trying to mislead the gullible and mask the truth by portraying it as a telegram in the first place. The hullaballu is certainly about firing bird shots at unarmed protestors to torture or maim them for life. The bird shot is for killing small birds. But when hit the humans, hundreds of pellets get embedded all over the body. It may become surgically next to impossible to remove all of them in one go and becomes a torture for life. If the bird shot hits the eyes, eyes get blinded. What is all this barbarity about? Under which law?
All this ignoring and glossing the vast wealth of history on the militancy in punjab and its origin in the abominable "land of peace" across our western borders
Glossing over nothing. For your information the insurgency in Punjab had absolutely nothing to do with "across the border". It was a political problem and it remains so. No insurgency in the world ever has anything to do with "across the borders". It is always a political problem within the borders which the State refuses to acknowledge with honesty. Read some authentic political history of the land of Punjab and not just political propaganda, then you will understand. Else you will keep on reiterating the political rhetoric.
Well lets draw equivalence with the perpetrators across our western borders and how they treat the Balochs ,the sindhis ,pashtuns ,hazaras and
other minorities .And with the rest of our neighborhood who are constantly in the news for their (mis)treatment of minorities.
Fantastic "equivalence" just like the equivalence of bombing of civilians with resulting "peace". Any ways how is the "treatment" of minorities in India got to do with what kind of treatment minorities get in some other country? Isn't that the "internal matter" of that country just like many things are "internal matter" of our country? Or is it not? First decide which way you want to go.
“A man whose role in the identity crisis has not been fully highlighted was Kapur Singh ICS. He had been dismissed from service on charges of corruption. He tried to portray himself as a martyr. In a pamphlet he published he alleged that Prime Minister Nehru through Governor Chandu Lal Trivedi had issued a directive in 1947 to all the Commissioners in Punjab to the effect that the ‘Sikhs in general must be treated as a criminal tribe. Harsh treatment must be meted out to them to the extent of shooting them so that they wake up to political realities.’ He concluded: ‘Mughal King Bahadur Shah ordered followers of Nanak to be executed on sight. I, being a declared Sikh, fell victim to this Mughal firman.’.................... Kapur Singh in his book ‘Sachi-Sakhi’ has given details of charges, Law and facts involved. The book is available in the market. I suggest Khuswant Singh should go through it. However. It is admitted that such a directive was issued to all the D.C.s of Punjab by Home Secretary vide Policy letter of 10th October 1947. It is altogether different issue who issued the oral instructions, Jawahar Lal Nehru, Sardar Patel or Chandu Lal Trivedi. Similar instructions were sent by then C.M. of U.P. Mr. Sampurnanand in his letter and the fact was admitted in his letter of 29th August 1959 to the then Dy. Speaker of Lok Sabha Mr. Hukam Singh. It says, “Rai Sikhs, Jat Sikhs, Virk Sikhs and Kamboj Sikhs, who were classified as criminal tribes in the earstwhile Punjab. “(Robber noblemen by Joycee Pettigrew, p. 219). These tribes/castes constitute over 70% of the total Sikh population. Charges were inquired into by an English Judge of the Punjab High Court and he submitted his “Opinion” and not findings, on the basis of which he was dismissed. While Raghupati Kapur another ICS officer was reinstated into service. Are there two sets of rules for ICS officers? We have recently seen that when Indira Gandhi was Prime Minister George Fernadez was in fetters and handcuffed but when Morari Desai became Prime Minister he became Union Cabinet Minister. No law was changed but most unwanted person became most important person.
Source http://presscouncil.nic.in/OldWebsite/D ... n05/19.htm This secret letter to treat all the Sikhs as criminals is also part of Supreme Court and Parliamentary records. Was this a gift of independence they got as a matter of State Policy in 1947? What was their crime or "militancy" when a fresh new chapter was being started in history of this land? Were they a "problem" from "across the border"?

Not inconsistent with the policy that is clearly manifest in the letter mentioned above, the way the treatment of minorities in India is pathetic. If bombing them, subjecting them to genocides running over million is nice treatment as per your understanding, I have nothing to say because your political ideology vis a vis minorities is self evident. Thank you so much for your political rhetoric!

Facts speak for themselves below -
The proportion of Sikh and Christian undertrials in Indian prisons is two times their proportion in the general population, according to the NCRB data.

As convicts, the proportion of Sikhs is three times their proportion in the general population and for Christians, it’s two times.

There is no official explanation for the higher relative proportion of Sikhs and Christians in jail. The highest number of Sikh undertrials is in Punjab, Haryana and Rajasthan, which account for 83% of all Sikh undertrials in the country.
Source http://www.indiaspend.com/cover-story/h ... kely-60350
Conviniently overlooking the rape ,murder and genocide of Kashmiri Pandits ,700000 of whom live in exile in their own home land !!
Nobody is overlooking anything. There are serious questions that we need to ask ourselves. There are almost a million or more troops in Kashmir. How can a handful of insurgents drive out such a large population? What were the troops doing? Were they so incompetent or so afraid they did not take any action? What was the government doing? Was it a false flag operation to get political mileage in the media?

What about the rape, murder and genocide of minorities in their homeland or it is not their homeland?


"If my mother tongue is shaking the foundations of your State, it probably means that you built your State on my land" - Musa Anter, Kurdish writer, assassinated by the Turkish secret services in 1992

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Re: New gun mantra- India Today Article on Arms Rules-2016

Postby ashokpkl » Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:53 am

Can we stick to making .22 Airguns legal ?

Open a new forum / blog on the shortcomings of Indian democracy and also participate actively at local level to fix civic issues...relating to the state govt, central govt, local admin, good values of citizens, ethics, cleanliness and making a road-map for your area and getting it delivered. In short get out in the field (street) and get your hands dirty !!!


Ashok Vashisht

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Re: New gun mantra- India Today Article on Arms Rules-2016

Postby goodboy_mentor » Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:38 pm

ashokpkl wrote:Can we stick to making .22 Airguns legal ?
Very first step is unless the legal position is understood, nothing is going to happen. May read the following post viewtopic.php?f=4&t=24511&p=243291#p243291


"If my mother tongue is shaking the foundations of your State, it probably means that you built your State on my land" - Musa Anter, Kurdish writer, assassinated by the Turkish secret services in 1992

ngrewal
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Re: New gun mantra- India Today Article on Arms Rules-2016

Postby ngrewal » Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:56 am

Disgusted at the new rule its just means to acquire lay mans weapons including heirlooms so Bureaucrats and politicos can buy them at peanut cost. Dont think 100% FDI is going to do wonders for small arms manufacturers India has lot of catching up to do with China Philippines Turkey etc



jatindra Singh Deo
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Re: New gun mantra- India Today Article on Arms Rules-2016

Postby jatindra Singh Deo » Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:33 pm

goodboy_mentor wrote:It is well settled matter of law firing on unarmed persons and using disproportionate force is unlawful. Despite your attempts to divert the discussion and propagating your personal and political ideology, the legal facts remain what they are. Quoting some personal views of a soldier that matches yours and portraying them as "facts" is not going to change this. In any conflict both sides indulge in telling lies and try to pass them on as "facts". Basic principle of natural justice is audi alteram partem i.e. that both sides should be heard. Just presenting one side of the story is nothing but propaganda, which the links posted by you are exactly trying to do.

Even there are many judgments of Supreme Court related to this type of matter. Also Supreme Court has acknowledged security forces do indulge in deliberate killings of innocents. Certainly Supreme Court is not "eulogizing" anyone by acknowledging the facts and truth. Or maybe one day your political ideology will say Supreme Court is "eulogizing" or supporting a particular entity by speaking the truth. Good luck to such a political ideology and let us see in which direction it takes the Indian sub continent to. Genocides running into more than million dead conducted with help of security forces is a well documented fact and is in public domain on internet. You may read the following post viewtopic.php?f=13&t=24170#p240075 Security forces using civilians as human shields is also documented and in public domain on the internet.

This is a poor attempt at manipulation of facts and statements at hand to build a non existent counter narrative .The first posted material clearly condemns the Indian Govenments actions and particularly that of Indira Gandhi by comparing them to Cambodia-like near zero camps .And despite such condemnable actions of the past regime ,the amazing platform the Mizo have built for their future.
What a brilliant justification of a crime, just condemn it and forget it. Condemnation means nothing. Is condemnation enough and end of the story for any crime especially such serious crimes? Then we must scrap all the laws and justice system. Whenever any crime will happen, it will just be condemned verbally and the accused will be allowed to go free without any trial.
Well isnt that obvious ? (Sic) Metaphors are powerfull tool of exposing calumny ,guess you missed it (sic).Wasn't the telegram a allegory to the
state of affairs over the kashmiri hullaballu ?
Well it is certainly obvious the creator of the "telegram" is trying to mislead the gullible and mask the truth by portraying it as a telegram in the first place. The hullaballu is certainly about firing bird shots at unarmed protestors to torture or maim them for life. The bird shot is for killing small birds. But when hit the humans, hundreds of pellets get embedded all over the body. It may become surgically next to impossible to remove all of them in one go and becomes a torture for life. If the bird shot hits the eyes, eyes get blinded. What is all this barbarity about? Under which law?
All this ignoring and glossing the vast wealth of history on the militancy in punjab and its origin in the abominable "land of peace" across our western borders
Glossing over nothing. For your information the insurgency in Punjab had absolutely nothing to do with "across the border". It was a political problem and it remains so. No insurgency in the world ever has anything to do with "across the borders". It is always a political problem within the borders which the State refuses to acknowledge with honesty. Read some authentic political history of the land of Punjab and not just political propaganda, then you will understand. Else you will keep on reiterating the political rhetoric.
Well lets draw equivalence with the perpetrators across our western borders and how they treat the Balochs ,the sindhis ,pashtuns ,hazaras and
other minorities .And with the rest of our neighborhood who are constantly in the news for their (mis)treatment of minorities.
Fantastic "equivalence" just like the equivalence of bombing of civilians with resulting "peace". Any ways how is the "treatment" of minorities in India got to do with what kind of treatment minorities get in some other country? Isn't that the "internal matter" of that country just like many things are "internal matter" of our country? Or is it not? First decide which way you want to go.
“A man whose role in the identity crisis has not been fully highlighted was Kapur Singh ICS. He had been dismissed from service on charges of corruption. He tried to portray himself as a martyr. In a pamphlet he published he alleged that Prime Minister Nehru through Governor Chandu Lal Trivedi had issued a directive in 1947 to all the Commissioners in Punjab to the effect that the ‘Sikhs in general must be treated as a criminal tribe. Harsh treatment must be meted out to them to the extent of shooting them so that they wake up to political realities.’ He concluded: ‘Mughal King Bahadur Shah ordered followers of Nanak to be executed on sight. I, being a declared Sikh, fell victim to this Mughal firman.’.................... Kapur Singh in his book ‘Sachi-Sakhi’ has given details of charges, Law and facts involved. The book is available in the market. I suggest Khuswant Singh should go through it. However. It is admitted that such a directive was issued to all the D.C.s of Punjab by Home Secretary vide Policy letter of 10th October 1947. It is altogether different issue who issued the oral instructions, Jawahar Lal Nehru, Sardar Patel or Chandu Lal Trivedi. Similar instructions were sent by then C.M. of U.P. Mr. Sampurnanand in his letter and the fact was admitted in his letter of 29th August 1959 to the then Dy. Speaker of Lok Sabha Mr. Hukam Singh. It says, “Rai Sikhs, Jat Sikhs, Virk Sikhs and Kamboj Sikhs, who were classified as criminal tribes in the earstwhile Punjab. “(Robber noblemen by Joycee Pettigrew, p. 219). These tribes/castes constitute over 70% of the total Sikh population. Charges were inquired into by an English Judge of the Punjab High Court and he submitted his “Opinion” and not findings, on the basis of which he was dismissed. While Raghupati Kapur another ICS officer was reinstated into service. Are there two sets of rules for ICS officers? We have recently seen that when Indira Gandhi was Prime Minister George Fernadez was in fetters and handcuffed but when Morari Desai became Prime Minister he became Union Cabinet Minister. No law was changed but most unwanted person became most important person.
Source http://presscouncil.nic.in/OldWebsite/D ... n05/19.htm This secret letter to treat all the Sikhs as criminals is also part of Supreme Court and Parliamentary records. Was this a gift of independence they got as a matter of State Policy in 1947? What was their crime or "militancy" when a fresh new chapter was being started in history of this land? Were they a "problem" from "across the border"?

Not inconsistent with the policy that is clearly manifest in the letter mentioned above, the way the treatment of minorities in India is pathetic. If bombing them, subjecting them to genocides running over million is nice treatment as per your understanding, I have nothing to say because your political ideology vis a vis minorities is self evident. Thank you so much for your political rhetoric!

Facts speak for themselves below -
The proportion of Sikh and Christian undertrials in Indian prisons is two times their proportion in the general population, according to the NCRB data.

As convicts, the proportion of Sikhs is three times their proportion in the general population and for Christians, it’s two times.

There is no official explanation for the higher relative proportion of Sikhs and Christians in jail. The highest number of Sikh undertrials is in Punjab, Haryana and Rajasthan, which account for 83% of all Sikh undertrials in the country.
Source http://www.indiaspend.com/cover-story/h ... kely-60350
Conviniently overlooking the rape ,murder and genocide of Kashmiri Pandits ,700000 of whom live in exile in their own home land !!
Nobody is overlooking anything. There are serious questions that we need to ask ourselves. There are almost a million or more troops in Kashmir. How can a handful of insurgents drive out such a large population? What were the troops doing? Were they so incompetent or so afraid they did not take any action? What was the government doing? Was it a false flag operation to get political mileage in the media?

What about the rape, murder and genocide of minorities in their homeland or it is not their homeland?




Okay professor Moriarty I have been seeing and observing your inclinations for some time now .After the very basic premise of your theory as been
countered "unarmed civilians".You stick to the House of Cards that you have been building for some time now .

Lets put your THEORIES to the theory of deduction and see what you are trying to do :

1. India is a state deep into Balkanization and some serious belief into the concept .Last I hear of the same in other word "1000 cuts" ,"Gazhwawa's" from a red capped chief conspiracy theorist from across our western border cooling his heels in prison in a certain Kingdom.

2.There's these angel's across the western border in a certain city of Rawalpindi praying for our deliverance but we Indians insist on Balkanizing and on a self destruct mode .poor us !

3.The Indian democracy is a fig leaf for oppression on its population (drawing from the Balkanization theory ) .

4.The Indian Army is a instrument of oppression and brutal occupation that justifies the attacks and killing of personnel.

5.The Indian parliament is the seat of this oppression and people need to rise against the oppressors .

6.The kashmir millitancy i.e such a pious indegeneous effort (again drawing from the Balkanization theory) why cant these brutal Indians support them ! Oh the brutality and then blame it on (again) pious neighbours..

7. The next one takes the cake ...very similar to the line pious organization like the Hurriyat take ...The Kashimiri Pandits genocide ,rape murder and exodus was a clever Indian conspiracy !! Very similar to the denial of the Holocaust by some west asian countries !

8. Any thread on show of support for Armed forces Martyrs has to be marked as "political " .



There are more but these pretty much summarizes your attempts at planting the aforementioned ideas into what you consider are gullible minds !!
Throw in some constitutional algebra to keep the heart out of the mental turbulence that you seek to cook up !! As Professor Moriarty says "in a world full of locked rooms the man with the key is king" !! Is that your brilliant idea ?

Of course you cant kill a Idea !! Can you ? Brilliant !(you must be saying to yourself ...hmm)

You forgot that folks have been trying this for the last 1100 years with limited temporary success to finally end up losing .This is a civilization that is led by people transcending the mind over thousands of year .They even invented a Aryan invasion theory towards that end for gods sake !! Your theories have such gaping holes that a half asleep human can see through them .

Yes we have flaws but they are to be rectified by us as this is our country not to serve the purpose of theories that you are trying to cook up in every other thread .

This is not even the medieval age ,information at your disposal and we tend to understand where we stand in contrast to our neighborhood ,west asia and roughly the entire world .

If you think that you are successful ,think again mate ,you are on the wrong bus !

I would keep it at that ,got a job to do and this kinda boring .Had a feeling got to put these in the open and let fellow Indians and IFGians here make there own deductions .



goodboy_mentor
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Re: New gun mantra- India Today Article on Arms Rules-2016

Postby goodboy_mentor » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:40 pm

jatindra Singh Deo wrote:Okay professor Moriarty I have been seeing and observing your inclinations for some time now .After the very basic premise of your theory as been countered "unarmed civilians". You stick to the House of Cards that you have been building for some time now .

Lets put your THEORIES to the theory of deduction and see what you are trying to do :

1. India is a state deep into Balkanization and some serious belief into the concept .
It is only in your make believe world that makes you believe the fact of firing on unarmed civilians is not use of disproportionate force and not unlawful. The position of law remains the same and remains un "countered". To get more idea of the legal position read the (Retd.) Supreme Court Justice Katju Commission Report available here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8812&p=243496#p243496

Regarding your "balkanization theory", yes Mr. self styled Sherlock Holmes, it is not just a theory but a Geo political reality that is unfolding. Yes the Indian State is moving towards self created road to balkanization not merely because of Geo political realities surrounding it but more due to it's own crimes, genocides, injustices, sins and it's inherent attitude to cover up, deny the facts and truth. These are the serious gaping holes being drilled into the foundations of Indian State by the Indian State itself. Arrogantly closing the eyes to facts and truth is not going change the course of history. Now let us do a reality check about what the political entity called "Union of India" really is -

Black's Law Dictionary 9th Edition -

Nation - A large group of people having a common origin, language, and tradition and usually constituting a political entity. When a nation is coincident with a state, the term nation-state is often used. Also termed nationality.

"The nearest we can get to a definition is to say that a nation is a group of people bound together by common history, common sentiment and traditions, and, usually (though not always. as, for example, Belgium or Switzerland) by common heritage. A state, on the other hand, is a society of men united under one government. These two forms of society are not necessarily coincident. A single nation may be divided into several states, and conversely a single state may comprise several nations or parts of nations." John Salmond, Jurisprudence 136 (Glanville L Williams ed., 10th ed. 1947).

Above definition of Nation, like it or not, is not a belief or theory or wish but a hard fact. The Indian State(the political Nation State) is made of different Nations. Like it or not, this is a fact. Read Article 1 of the Constitution, it accepts this fact. Every State has it's own different language, origin, culture, history, traditions and so forth. For example Punjab has nothing in common with Arunachal Pradesh, Arunachal Pradesh has nothing in common with Maharashtra, Maharashtra has nothing in common with Nagaland and so on. It means we are not "one people".

There is no nation of Indians in the real sense of the world, it is yet to be created. In believing we are a nation, we are cherishing a great delusion. - Dr. B. R. Ambedkar

Now we are living in information age, cannot afford to bury our heads in sand and keep on covering up or denying the reality and truth for long. If more than 300 year old Scottish "Union" with Britain can be put to test of referendum, there is nothing that legally prevents putting the Indian Union and it's "democracy" to the test of referendum. Referendum is part and parcel of human rights, democratic rights, Common Law and the Indian Constitution accepts this fact of law. The fact that the Constitution of India also recognizes referendum can be verified by reading the para two of Statement of Objects and Reasons of 44th Constitution Amendment Bill. If we keep on violating human rights and deny civil and political rights of various peoples, it is not very far when some super powers or rising super powers will start arm twisting and creating very serious problems.

There are five elements of the right to self determination under International Law. The right to self-determination is an individual and collective right of a people to “freely determine . . . political status and [to]freely pursue . . . economic, social and cultural development.” The right to self-determination is also a fundamental principle of human rights law. A people oppressed by a government have the right to feel safe and freely pursue their social and cultural development.

The principle of self-determination is generally linked to the de-colonization process that took place after the promulgation of the United Nations Charter of 1945. The obligation to respect the principle of self-determination is a prominent feature of the Charter, appearing, inter alia, in both Preamble to the Charter and in Article 1.

The International Court of Justice refers to the right to self-determination as a right held by a people rather than a right held by governments alone. The two important United Nations studies on the right to self-determination set out factors of a people that give rise to their possession of the right to self-determination, these factors being:

If a people meet all these elements they legally having the right to self-determination under international law.

The Five Elements -

History Of Independence Or Self-Rule

Identifiable Territory

Distinct Culture

Capability To Self-Govern

Will For Independence

Alternative Element - Victims of Human Rights Violations

There is an addition element that may also be used by a people to obtain the right to self-determination. If a people do not have one or all of the elements listed above, but are the victims of human rights violations, then they may also demand the right to self-determination under international law.

Like it or not there are many peoples within the political territory of India that qualify the above conditions. The question is whether we want to change our attitude ourselves or want the world to force us change our attitude. We have to make a choice sooner or later. The probability of the historical tragedy of Carthage and Rome being repeated on the Indian sub continent are extremely high and real.

As I said earlier, I respect your right to have your personal and political views, but I disagree with them due to facts and truth. Facts and truth stand for themselves. Therefore I will not prefer to respond to rest of your irrelevant political drivel that is not based on facts.


"If my mother tongue is shaking the foundations of your State, it probably means that you built your State on my land" - Musa Anter, Kurdish writer, assassinated by the Turkish secret services in 1992


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