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How America comes to grips with a mass shooting

Discussions on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.
Commonwealth_of_PA
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How America comes to grips with a mass shooting

Postby Commonwealth_of_PA » Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:00 am

In my Commonwealth:

Armed civilians stand guard in front of military recruiting center near York


[ Image ]

[ Image ]

James Fitzgerald and a group of friends are armed to defend the Armed Forces Career Center. The center is in the Manchester Crossroads shopping center along Route 30 in Manchester Township. A wife of a recruiter said she was thankful for their support.

http://www.ydr.com/local/ci_28508978/ar ... ing-center


Elsewhere:

Man armed with AR-15 stands guard at Virginia military recruiting offices

[ Image ]

http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/29573755/m ... ing-office


Georgia


HIRAM, Ga. -

The morning after a deadly attack on two military centers in Chattanooga, residents in Hiram are standing watch outside the local recruiting office with their personal firearms. It is their unique way of honoring the fallen Marines and they said to protect the lives of those who serve in the military.

[ Image ]

http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/story/29572644/hiram-watch


"You and I have a rendezvous with destiny. We will preserve for our children this, the last best hope of man on earth, or we will sentence them to take the first step into a thousand years of darkness. If we fail, at least let our children and our children's children say of us we justified our brief moment here. We did all that could be done."

God Bless the Navy, God Bless the Marines, God Bless India, and God Bless the United States of America.


I just found out one of my friends did a shift at a local recruiting office today so I guess I have no excuse. I'm going to have to do it myself and get another person to do it as well.



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timmy
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Re: How America comes to grips with a mass shooting

Postby timmy » Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:36 am

Has anyone volunteered to stand guard in front of South Carolina churches?


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tim

Commonwealth_of_PA
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Re: How America comes to grips with a mass shooting

Postby Commonwealth_of_PA » Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:49 am

timmy wrote:Has anyone volunteered to stand guard in front of South Carolina churches?


Guns are already banned at South Carolina churches so I think they just took down some flags, dug up some graves, and moved some monuments. They would call the police if somebody stood guard at a South Carolina church, it's not wanted.



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timmy
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Re: How America comes to grips with a mass shooting

Postby timmy » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:02 am

I see. But nobody is talking about carrying a gun inside of a church, any more than these folks in the links above are standing inside the recruitment centers. They are standing guard outside the centers. I only wondered if people had shown up in front of churches to prevent attacks too.

I was under the impression that sidewalks in front of churches were public property, just like they are in front of recruitment centers. Anyone can picket and protest peacefully in front of a church or recruitment center or any other place, for instance. If it is legal to stand on a sidewalk in front of a recruitment center with a gun, why is it any different to stand on a sidewalk in front of a church with a gun?

So the military and naval recruiting offices requested armed citizens to patrol recruitment centers?

I also wondered whether the churches had asked (they couldn't tell) people not to stand guard in front of the churches -- I haven't read of such a request for people not to stand guard, or an offer by anyone to do so, for that matter.


Regards,

tim

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xl_target
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Re: How America comes to grips with a mass shooting

Postby xl_target » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:21 am

According to Wikipedia, South Carolina does not allow the open carry of long guns or handguns.
So, apparently, it would be illegal for someone standing outside a SC church to display a firearm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_South_Carolina


“Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense” — Winston Churchill, Oct 29, 1941

Commonwealth_of_PA
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Re: How America comes to grips with a mass shooting

Postby Commonwealth_of_PA » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:32 am

timmy wrote:I see. But nobody is talking about carrying a gun inside of a church, any more than these folks in the links above are standing inside the recruitment centers. They are standing guard outside the centers. I only wondered if people had shown up in front of churches to prevent attacks too.


I carry a gun in church, and I am willing to talk about it.

It aint me, it's South Carolina. They have a cultural aversion to such things. I don't live there, I can't speak for them, but it seems pretty obvious to me.

The Pastor of that church is a political anti-gun activist that has pushed legislation to infringe the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Do you think he would be happy to have people declaring they bear arms in front of his church?

It is not only a legal matter, it is also a matter of honoring the wishes of the proprietor and their flock. I would hope nobody would stand guard where they are not welcome, that is basically harassment.

timmy wrote:So the military and naval recruiting offices requested armed citizens to patrol recruitment centers?


Would you, or any other decent American such as yourself stand guard at recruitment centers if there was any indication you were not wanted?

One of my friends just did this, and communicated with the office staff. I can assure you he is a man of honor and would have left the property had there been any doubt about whether or not he was welcome. Just like you and me.



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timmy
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Re: How America comes to grips with a mass shooting

Postby timmy » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:46 am

Regarding South Carolina carry laws - got it.

Regarding what the pastor allows in his church - got it.

Regarding what control the pastor has over a public sidewalk - none

Regarding how much some open carry folks care about what other people think of their legal carry in public - none

Regarding what any this has to do with RKBA in India - none that I can see


Regards,

tim

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Re: How America comes to grips with a mass shooting

Postby Commonwealth_of_PA » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:18 am

I thought it might be inspirational, something that would cheer up like minded and freedom loving people. Indians have a long history of defending the oppressed, and this is a firearms forum. I'm not trying to act righteous or anything, I am just concerned I have ticked off my hosts in a place where I am a guest. So I wanted to explain my intentions. I apologize for any offense. On my end, this is nothing, don't worry about it. Let's just drop it, and thanks.



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Re: How America comes to grips with a mass shooting

Postby xl_target » Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:39 am

Commonwealth_of_PA wrote:I thought it might be inspirational, something that would cheer up like minded and freedom loving people. Indians have a long history of defending the oppressed, and this is a firearms forum. I'm not trying to act righteous or anything, I am just concerned I have ticked off my hosts in a place where I am a guest. So I wanted to explain my intentions. I apologize for any offense. On my end, this is nothing, don't worry about it. Let's just drop it, and thanks.



You did nothing wrong.
You posted facts.

You posted what some Americans, with the right to keep and bear arms, have done to protect the members of their country's armed forces (who are unable to do so for themselves). Those soldiers, sailors and airmen are duty bound to staff those locations, unarmed.
While it is unlikely that one would see this in many other places, this should be an inspiration to the citizens of countries where they are not allowed keep or to openly bear arms.


“Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense” — Winston Churchill, Oct 29, 1941

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Re: How America comes to grips with a mass shooting

Postby timmy » Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:41 pm

Indeed, facts were posted.

What I wonder is, as we seek to convince citizens that legal gun ownership open to all law-abiding citizens is a reasonable, as well as legal viewpoint, can it be assumed that these same citizens we try to convince would approve of others exercising gun rights in the manner described by the OP?

I don't think that giving this impression is productive.


Regards,

tim

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Re: How America comes to grips with a mass shooting

Postby goodboy_mentor » Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:07 am

timmy wrote:Regarding what any this has to do with RKBA in India - none that I can see
It is very relevant to RKBA in India. Article 51A(d) of Constitution of India says to defend the country and render national service when called upon to do so is a fundamental duty of citizens. "when called upon" is important condition. It also means RKBA is part and parcel of Part III(Fundamental Rights) of the Constitution. Similarly Article 51A(i) of Constitution of India says to safeguard public property and to abjure violence. RKBA is part and parcel of Indian Constitution has been explained here - viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23372&start=30#p230480
Commonwealth_of_PA wrote:I thought it might be inspirational, something that would cheer up like minded and freedom loving people. Indians have a long history of defending the oppressed, and this is a firearms forum.
Yes it should cheer up like minded freedom loving people. Unfortunately ignorance about importance and meaning of freedom and liberty is rampart in India. Ignorance of citizens is what the ruling elite loves and feeds upon.

About the history part of India, I would disagree with your opinion. India is something like a subcontinent, made up of different people having totally separate places of origin, culture, languages, history, ethnicity etc. It has a very complex history, not something just black and white. The political "India" that you see today is the creation of British for colonial administrative convenience. This is what the Chairman of the Constituent Assembly had to say about India -

"There is no nation of Indians in the real sense of the world, it is yet to be created. In believing we are a nation, we are cherishing a great delusion."

The contents in the following link may give you a clue to one of the reasons as to why RKBA has been clandestinely subverted even after British left India in 1947, even though it is guaranteed as fundamental right in present Constitution http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/projects/mmt ... on_17.html
timmy wrote:What I wonder is, as we seek to convince citizens that legal gun ownership open to all law-abiding citizens is a reasonable, as well as legal viewpoint, can it be assumed that these same citizens we try to convince would approve of others exercising gun rights in the manner described by the OP?
What is wrong in exercising gun rights in the manner described by Commonwealth_of_PA, provided the law has no problem?


"If my mother tongue is shaking the foundations of your State, it probably means that you built your State on my land" - Musa Anter, Kurdish writer, assassinated by the Turkish secret services in 1992

Commonwealth_of_PA
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Re: How America comes to grips with a mass shooting

Postby Commonwealth_of_PA » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:24 am

I would certainly not tell a person from India about their history, but I will say I know a little more than you might think.

India has one of the longest recorded histories there is. As such, there has been a lot of blood. Just starting with the last millennium, there has been blood everywhere. And there was more blood spilled in the world during the 20th Century than in the entire genetic history of the human race.

I know India as a name is a modern construct. And the name certainly predates British rule by about 600 years. But this region, this nation, which I call India, has been a wellspring of goodwill and sticking up for the oppressed over endless times. Even including caste persecution and the unfortunate episodes of the Sieks. And wars. I have seen wars as have my parents, grandparents, and forefathers. Like I said, times have been tough. Show me one widespread philosophy that has originated there other than harmony or defense of the weak. I have a very fond appreciation for some of the philosophies that have been birthed in India along with hundreds of millions of people that have walked the Earth with decency, compassion, and heroism in their hearts.



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Re: How America comes to grips with a mass shooting

Postby timmy » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:37 am

goodboy_mentor wrote:
timmy wrote:Regarding what any this has to do with RKBA in India - none that I can see
It is very relevant to RKBA in India. Article 51A(d) of Constitution of India says to defend the country and render national service when called upon to do so is a fundamental duty of citizens. "when called upon" is important condition. It also means RKBA is part and parcel of Part III(Fundamental Rights) of the Constitution. Similarly Article 51A(i) of Constitution of India says to safeguard public property and to abjure violence. RKBA is part and parcel of Indian Constitution has been explained here - viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23372&start=30#p230480


As you note, "when called upon" is an important provision of the Indian Constitution. None of the people in the posted links had been called upon by any authority.

Secondly, the (i) provision says "to safeguard public property and to abjure violence." Perhaps a review of the word "abjure" would be helpful here:

1a : to renounce upon oath
1b : to reject solemnly
2: to abstain from

goodboy_mentor wrote:
timmy wrote:What I wonder is, as we seek to convince citizens that legal gun ownership open to all law-abiding citizens is a reasonable, as well as legal viewpoint, can it be assumed that these same citizens we try to convince would approve of others exercising gun rights in the manner described by the OP?
What is wrong in exercising gun rights in the manner described by Commonwealth_of_PA, provided the law has no problem?


Simply this: Unlike what is inferred by the title of this thread, the actions depicted in the OP's linked articles DO NOT represent "How America comes to grips with a mass shooting." They represent how a faction of Americans come to grips with a mass shooting. That is a large difference, as it is inappropriate to post those actions as representative of the intentions of all.

These actions purport to defend freedoms and individual liberties, yet there are many incidents of people's liberties that go unnoticed by the faction active in the linked articles -- this is the only issue they have responded to. They are quite selective in what issues they "protect" (if you even accept that they are a protection from "Chattanooga" acts, which I do not accept), and this, coupled with their "self appointed" mandate, does not give me any reason to view them as differing from any other self-appointed armed gang in America.

This sort of behavior is relatively recent, under new laws passed in some states which guarantee open carry rights. I do not believe that the full impact of these laws has yet been realized. But again, this is beside the point: If you put it before the citizens of India today a referendum to allow or deny this sort of self-appointed behavior by any group wishing to act in this manner, do you suppose it would be approved?


Regards,

tim

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Re: How America comes to grips with a mass shooting

Postby xl_target » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:31 pm

As you note, "when called upon" is an important provision of the Indian Constitution. None of the people in the posted links had been called upon by any authority.

Secondly, the (i) provision says "to safeguard public property and to abjure violence." Perhaps a review of the word "abjure" would be helpful here:

1a : to renounce upon oath
1b : to reject solemnly
2: to abstain from

None of the people posted in those links have anything to do with what the Constitution of India says, so why bring it up?

Simply this: Unlike what is inferred by the title of this thread, the actions depicted in the OP's linked articles DO NOT represent "How America comes to grips with a mass shooting." They represent how a faction of Americans come to grips with a mass shooting. That is a large difference, as it is inappropriate to post those actions as representative of the intentions of all.

True, absolutely true.

(Just to be clear, I am not talking about Tim here but about parts of urban America today.)
A percentage of Americans, especially people living in the larger cities will not agree with those actions, even though they are perfectly legal.
Unfortunately, I have observed a disturbing tendency of many Americans today to only support the parts of their constitution that they approve of.
All politicians swear an oath to the Constitution of the USA but generally that oath doesn't seem to mean anything to them, especially where the Second Amendment is concerned (and now, increasingly, where the First Amendment is concerned).

While there is some argument about the intent of the framers of the constitution:
There are several versions of the text of the Second Amendment, each with capitalization or punctuation differences. Differences exist between the drafted and ratified copies, the signed copies on display, and various published transcriptions.[16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23] The importance (or lack thereof) of these differences has been the source of debate regarding the meaning and interpretation of the amendment, particularly regarding the importance of the prefatory clause.
One version was passed by the Congress.[24][25][26][27][28]
As passed by the Congress and preserved in the National Archives, with the rest of the original hand-written copy of the Bill of Rights prepared by scribe William Lambert:[29]
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, then-Secretary of State:[30]
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

from Wikipedia


One part seems perfectly clear: "..the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"
Apparently the Supreme Court now agrees with that too (Heller)
A certain percentage of Americans today don't seem to (or purposely choose not to) understand the meaning of "...shall not be infringed".
I have always thought that those words mean exactly what they say but I guess not to everyone.


“Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense” — Winston Churchill, Oct 29, 1941

Commonwealth_of_PA
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Re: How America comes to grips with a mass shooting

Postby Commonwealth_of_PA » Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:15 am

There has never been any misunderstanding about the intent or meaning of the Second Amendment until Harvard came up with the idea of "Progressiveism," redefining American culture and amending the Constitution through judicial activism rather than the only legal amendment process. And they certainly had no misunderstanding, either.

Over the past 100 years, there have been only two types of people that have argued about the wording of the Second Amendment. The ignorant*, and the dishonest. There has never been any legitamate academic debate about this whatsoever unless you consider boiler room brainstorming sessions and Nigerian 419 scam project planning to be academic debate.

*I use the denotation of "ignorant," not the colloquial connotation of "stupid" in any respect.

It is wonderful to have this thread affirm there are Indians as well as Americans of Indian descent that will stand up to defend the weak against evil. I knew that long before I even signed up here but I never tire of seeing and hearing it. It's just one of those things that makes you feel good and proud every time :)




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