Guns & Indians article on MSN.com

Discussions on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.
Post Reply
Anand
Shooting true
Shooting true
Posts: 633
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:29 am
Location: Hyderabad

Guns & Indians article on MSN.com

Post by Anand » Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:22 pm

Article on Guns & Indians, Interesting!
http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/weekendre ... li=BBifYH6
Regards,
Anand
Yet another mass shooting in the US. And yet another week spent by this author trying to make sense of gun politics in the US.

Only to find that one of the great men of history often quoted by supporters of the US gun lobby is Mahatma Gandhi. And they don’t quote him as an enemy of the movement, as you might presume, but as a someone whose writings and sayings support the cause of the right to bear arms.

Mind you, a selective reading of Gandhi’s collected works does, in fact, present a good case for the pro-gun lobby. In more than one place, Gandhi can be seen asking the British to give Indians the freedom to bear arms.
Guns and Indians: Photo: Hindustan Times© LiveMint Photo: Hindustan Times

For instance, on 2 March 1930, Gandhi sent a letter to Lord Irwin from his ashram on the Sabarmati. The letter was sent shortly before the Civil Disobedience Movement and Gandhi wished to “fain approach you and find a way out” of the impending impasse. In the letter, Gandhi explains why he regarded British rule as a curse: “It has impoverished the dumb millions by a system of progressive exploitation and by a ruinously expensive military and civil administration which the country can never afford. It has reduced us politically to serfdom. It has sapped the foundations of our culture. And, by the policy of cruel disarmament, it has degraded us spiritually. Lacking the inward strength, we have been reduced, by all but universal disarmament, to a state bordering on cowardly helplessness.”

This letter to Irwin came just a day or two after Gandhi wrote an article in Young India with his list of demands from the British—the famous “Eleven Points”. These included: total prohibition, abolition of the salt tax, reduction of the military expenditure to at least 50% to begin with, and, the last one: “Issue of licenses to use firearms for self-defence subject to popular control.”

At the time, Indians were subject to the highly restrictive terms of the Indian Arms Act, 1878. This Act was one of many oppressive, imperialist laws that Gandhi and many other Indian leaders sought to get independence from. Indeed, there were specific satyagrahas held against the Arms Act.

Gandhi’s engagement with Irwin was not a thumping success. Only a fraction of his demands were met. And in return, Gandhi was allowed to participate in a series of conferences in London that, to great British delight, ended badly for him. Nonetheless, Gandhi and other Congress leaders persisted with their struggle for freedom. Around a year later, in March 1931, at the Karachi session of the Congress, a “Resolution On Fundamental Rights And Economic Changes” was adopted. It was, as constitutional historian Granville Austin calls it, “both a declaration of rights and a humanitarian socialist manifesto”.

This is a landmark, if neglected, document that Austin suggests deeply influenced the Indian Constitution. It states, a decade and a half before independence, a commitment to free speech, free press, religious neutrality, adult suffrage and free primary education. And in the Karachi resolution, listed under the first section on fundamental rights of the people, is the “right to keep and bear arms in accordance with regulations and reservations made in that behalf.”

But turn to the Indian Constitution and there is no mention of this right. In fact, the oppressive Indian Arms Act of 1878 was only replaced with a new one as late as 1959. So, what happened? Why did the founders suddenly lose interest in a “fundamental right” that they were so passionate about for decades preceding freedom? To understand this, we need to appreciate the context in which members of India’s constituent assembly had to work. In early 1947, a sub-committee had drawn up a list of fundamental rights that included the right to bear arms. This list was then sent to an advisory committee, chaired by Sardar Patel, that met in Delhi on 21 and 22 April 1947.

In the months leading up to that meeting, appalling communal violence had left hundreds dead in Bengal and Punjab. Partition seemed imminent and Patel, perhaps, had all but given up hope of a unified subcontinent.

Delhi itself was under curfew as Patel and the others met. And as they looked at the carnage around them, they appeared to have lost appetite for gun rights. Syama Prasad Mookerjee wanted to keep it in the list. But Patel refused: “In the present state of our society (this) will be a dangerous thing.” A suggestion to leave it to individual states was shot down by B.R. Ambedkar, who warned that states might go to war with each other.

Thus the right to bear arms was dropped from India’s Constitution. It came up for discussion again in the assembly. H.V. Kamath, the member for Central Provinces and Berar, delivered a rather passionate defence of the right in December 1948. But there was little real enthusiasm. Colonial gun laws remained untouched for another decade.

Meanwhile, on 30 January 1948, the man who spent years asking for Indians to be given the right to bear arms was shot in the chest three times with a Beretta M1934 pistol. By an Indian.

Every week, Déjà View scours historical research and archives to make sense of current news and affairs.

For Advertising mail webmaster
sa_ali
Shooting true
Shooting true
Posts: 945
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: Guns & Indians article on MSN.com

Post by sa_ali » Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:44 pm

nice article, it atleast for the first time to me gives the perspective to what all really happened behind the scene for the arms act

aadhaulya
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 1174
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:41 pm

Re: Guns & Indians article on MSN.com

Post by aadhaulya » Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:56 pm

Interesting article.

User avatar
GNV
Shooting true
Shooting true
Posts: 664
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:30 am
Location: Tadepalligudem, Andhra Pradesh.

Re: Guns & Indians article on MSN.com

Post by GNV » Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:25 pm

Just before independence and after independence who cared for Mahatma's ideas and thinking ? Everybody was busy taking care of their ideas.

User avatar
ak27
Almost at nirvana
Almost at nirvana
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:12 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: Guns & Indians article on MSN.com

Post by ak27 » Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:26 pm

Thanks a ton for sharing the knowledgeable article, Anand. It sure vivifies the RKBA spirit in the Indian context.
Meanwhile, on 30 January 1948, the man who spent years asking for Indians to be given the right to bear arms was shot in the chest three times with a Beretta M1934 pistol.
An interesting read on the ownership of the Pistol. A highly-guarded secret, apparently.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 633870.cms
The investigation into the murder of the father of the nation Mahatma Gandhi is still inconclusive for many including the close kin of the convicts of the plot. Almost 64 years after his assassination, mystery still shrouds the ownership of Italian pistol used to kill the Mahatma and its Gwalior connection.

The kin of the convicts feel, unless the mystery is solved the investigation cannot be considered complete.

It is believed that the pistol changed many hands in Gwalior till it finally came in possession of Jagdish Prasad Goel who passed it on to Gangadhar Dandavate who finally delivered it to Nathuram Godse."Question regarding ownership of the pistol was in my mind for years. Every time I posed this question before my father (Gopal Godse) he remained mum," says Himani Sawarkar, niece of Nathuram Godse. "Almost all the people involved are dead, and those who know it, are not ready to reveal", she lamented.

Two of the nine persons charged in the murder plot were executed, some of them convicted and the remaining released.

The investigation however, remained silent on why trail of the weapon's ownership was never pursued.Chargesheet into the Gandhi murder case reads, "Godse reached Gwalior by train on January 28 and secured the pistol (Beretta M1934 semi-automatic pistol in .380 ACP caliber, serial number 606824) - with the help of Gwalior based Dr Dattatraya S Parchure, Gangadhar Dandvate, Gangadhar Jadhao, and Suryadeo Sharma".

Dr Parchure, a resident of Gwalior's Shinde ki Chawni area was detained on February 3, 1948 and formally arrested for conspiracy two weeks later. On February 18, he confessed to his role in the murder during trial before First Class Magistrate (Gwalior) R B Atal, but later retracted citing it as 'forcefully extracted'. Investigators claimed, Godse obtained the pistol from Gwalior through Dr Parchure who got it from Dandavate. During course of trial Dandavate said that he had bought the pistol from a person named - Jagdish Prasad Goel who admitted to have sold the pistol to Dandvate. But Goel never explained how he himself got it."I am surprised why the last person in the chain of weapon's ownership was not chased. This could have exposed some conspiracy behind the assassination," said a IPS officer wishing anonymity.

Talking to TOI, Dandavate's son Chandrasekhar (58) says, "It's a secret that has been secured for last many years. Revealing it now might cause political turmoil...I don't want more trouble at this age". Chandrasekhar works in a private school at Gwalior. Manohar Malgonkar, mentioned in his book titled 'The men who killed Gandhi', "It is possible that Goel, by refusing to mention the name of the person who had sold it to him, was shielding him from trouble. Godse was hanged at Ambala jail on November 15, 1949. Since then Gwalior Hindu Mahasabha observes Nov 15 as Godse's "martyrdom day".

"The pistol's ownership was a secret and will remain a secret ... only fact I can tell you is that Goel was not the last person in chain," said Dr Jaiveer Bharadwaj, the national vice president of Hindu Mahasabha.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" - Ben Franklin

aadhaulya
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 1174
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:41 pm

Re: Guns & Indians article on MSN.com

Post by aadhaulya » Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:16 pm

I read somewhere that the pistol is missing from Police custody or where ever it was deposited. Though I am not sure of the source or authenticity of this information.

Atul

Commonwealth_of_PA
Almost at nirvana
Almost at nirvana
Posts: 151
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:22 pm

Re: Guns & Indians article on MSN.com

Post by Commonwealth_of_PA » Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:44 pm

Yet another mass shooting in the US. And yet another week spent by this author trying to make sense of gun politics in the US.
We have 330 million people in our country and the number of people that die in mass shootings each year is around 100. It's almost the least likely way to die in the US. More kids died choking on toilet paper or having home computers fall on them in 2000.

The number of people killed by "assault weapons" each year in the US is also about 100, according to DIANE FEINSTEIN, the architect of the 1990s "assault weapon" ban and the one who has been pushing it ever since.

I think the author should spend more time worrying about US lawnmower politics.

sa_ali
Shooting true
Shooting true
Posts: 945
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: Guns & Indians article on MSN.com

Post by sa_ali » Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:56 pm

thats a very interesting fact that the owner of the gun was never traced out, even in the British raj the licensing was in place, so if it was licensed weapon, they should have found the owner. If not even then should have being able to trace the original person who procured the weapon.
Even today the descendant are boldly accepting it that there were othera but they don't want to open it for political reason, what an excuse

User avatar
mundaire
We post a lot
We post a lot
Posts: 5404
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 5:53 pm
Location: New Delhi, India
Contact:

Guns and Indians - article in Mint

Post by mundaire » Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:04 pm

Just saw this, not sure if it has been posted before.

http://www.livemint.com/Opinion/nAr4aNE ... dians.html
Guns and Indians
The right to bear arms was dropped from India’s Constitution. It has come up for discussion again in the assembly
Sidin Vadukut
Last Modified: Fri, Jul 03, 2015. 07:42 PM IST

Yet another mass shooting in the US. And yet another week spent by this author trying to make sense of gun politics in the US.

Only to find that one of the great men of history often quoted by supporters of the US gun lobby is Mahatma Gandhi. And they don’t quote him as an enemy of the movement, as you might presume, but as a someone whose writings and sayings support the cause of the right to bear arms.

Mind you, a selective reading of Gandhi’s collected works does, in fact, present a good case for the pro-gun lobby. In more than one place, Gandhi can be seen asking the British to give Indians the freedom to bear arms.

For instance, on 2 March 1930, Gandhi sent a letter to Lord Irwin from his ashram on the Sabarmati. The letter was sent shortly before the Civil Disobedience Movement and Gandhi wished to “fain approach you and find a way out” of the impending impasse. In the letter, Gandhi explains why he regarded British rule as a curse: “It has impoverished the dumb millions by a system of progressive exploitation and by a ruinously expensive military and civil administration which the country can never afford. It has reduced us politically to serfdom. It has sapped the foundations of our culture. And, by the policy of cruel disarmament, it has degraded us spiritually. Lacking the inward strength, we have been reduced, by all but universal disarmament, to a state bordering on cowardly helplessness.”

This letter to Irwin came just a day or two after Gandhi wrote an article in Young India with his list of demands from the British—the famous “Eleven Points”. These included: total prohibition, abolition of the salt tax, reduction of the military expenditure to at least 50% to begin with, and, the last one: “Issue of licenses to use firearms for self-defence subject to popular control.”

At the time, Indians were subject to the highly restrictive terms of the Indian Arms Act, 1878. This Act was one of many oppressive, imperialist laws that Gandhi and many other Indian leaders sought to get independence from. Indeed, there were specific satyagrahas held against the Arms Act.

Gandhi’s engagement with Irwin was not a thumping success. Only a fraction of his demands were met. And in return, Gandhi was allowed to participate in a series of conferences in London that, to great British delight, ended badly for him. Nonetheless, Gandhi and other Congress leaders persisted with their struggle for freedom. Around a year later, in March 1931, at the Karachi session of the Congress, a “Resolution On Fundamental Rights And Economic Changes” was adopted. It was, as constitutional historian Granville Austin calls it, “both a declaration of rights and a humanitarian socialist manifesto”.

This is a landmark, if neglected, document that Austin suggests deeply influenced the Indian Constitution. It states, a decade and a half before independence, a commitment to free speech, free press, religious neutrality, adult suffrage and free primary education. And in the Karachi resolution, listed under the first section on fundamental rights of the people, is the “right to keep and bear arms in accordance with regulations and reservations made in that behalf.”

But turn to the Indian Constitution and there is no mention of this right. In fact, the oppressive Indian Arms Act of 1878 was only replaced with a new one as late as 1959. So, what happened? Why did the founders suddenly lose interest in a “fundamental right” that they were so passionate about for decades preceding freedom? To understand this, we need to appreciate the context in which members of India’s constituent assembly had to work. In early 1947, a sub-committee had drawn up a list of fundamental rights that included the right to bear arms. This list was then sent to an advisory committee, chaired by Sardar Patel, that met in Delhi on 21 and 22 April 1947.

In the months leading up to that meeting, appalling communal violence had left hundreds dead in Bengal and Punjab. Partition seemed imminent and Patel, perhaps, had all but given up hope of a unified subcontinent.

Delhi itself was under curfew as Patel and the others met. And as they looked at the carnage around them, they appeared to have lost appetite for gun rights. Syama Prasad Mookerjee wanted to keep it in the list. But Patel refused: “In the present state of our society (this) will be a dangerous thing.” A suggestion to leave it to individual states was shot down by B.R. Ambedkar, who warned that states might go to war with each other.

Thus the right to bear arms was dropped from India’s Constitution. It came up for discussion again in the assembly. H.V. Kamath, the member for Central Provinces and Berar, delivered a rather passionate defence of the right in December 1948. But there was little real enthusiasm. Colonial gun laws remained untouched for another decade.

Meanwhile, on 30 January 1948, the man who spent years asking for Indians to be given the right to bear arms was shot in the chest three times with a Beretta M1934 pistol. By an Indian.

Every week, Déjà View scours historical research and archives to make sense of current news and affairs.
http://www.livemint.com/Opinion/nAr4aNE ... dians.html
Like & share IndiansForGuns Facebook Page
Follow IndiansForGuns on Twitter

FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS - JOIN NAGRI NOW!

www.gunowners.in

"Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." -- Robert Heinlein

User avatar
ak27
Almost at nirvana
Almost at nirvana
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:12 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: Guns and Indians - article in Mint

Post by ak27 » Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:37 pm

Sorry chief, someone beat you to it.The article has already been shared in this post: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23499

Interestingly though, the same exact article's on msn and live mint.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" - Ben Franklin

User avatar
mundaire
We post a lot
We post a lot
Posts: 5404
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 5:53 pm
Location: New Delhi, India
Contact:

Re: Guns and Indians - article in Mint

Post by mundaire » Sun Aug 09, 2015 8:10 pm

Thanks for pointing that out ak27! (y) Will merge the two :)
Like & share IndiansForGuns Facebook Page
Follow IndiansForGuns on Twitter

FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS - JOIN NAGRI NOW!

www.gunowners.in

"Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." -- Robert Heinlein

goodboy_mentor
Old Timer
Old Timer
Posts: 2928
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: Guns & Indians article on MSN.com

Post by goodboy_mentor » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:34 am

I do not understand the real motive of saying RKBA is not guaranteed as fundamental right or Constituent Assembly forgot it or whatever. Either knowingly or unknowingly such writers are doing a great disservice to the cause of RKBA. They are perpetuating a very dishonest lie or myth that has been propagated in bogus or spurious constituent assembly debates. Following utterance by Dr. B.R. Ambedkar in parliament on 2nd September 1953 illustrates what actually went on while the Constitution was being written -

"People always keep on saying to me, so you are the maker of the Constitution. My answer is I was a hack. What I was asked to, I did much against my will. I am quite prepared to say that I shall be the first person to burn it. It does not suit anybody."

Just read below to understand the difference it makes to the narrative of RKBA -

1. Constitution must be respected. RKBA is not fundamental right in Part III of the Constitution. But I want my RKBA to be somehow respected.

2. Constitution must be respected. RKBA is fundamental right in Part III of the Constitution. It must be respected.

Which one out of the above two is better?

For those not aware that RKBA is part and parcel of Part III of the Indian Constitution may read the post in following link viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23372&start=30#p230480
"If my mother tongue is shaking the foundations of your State, it probably means that you built your State on my land" - Musa Anter, Kurdish writer, assassinated by the Turkish secret services in 1992

Post Reply