Mommentum regarding ban on assault rifles

[goodboy_mentor]

Preventing people from owning guns or assault rifles is not going to prevent any crime or violence. We have many startling examples in India. Automatic rifles/assault rifles are classified as prohibited arms in Arms Act 1959 but prohibiting them did not prevent 26/11 attacks in Mumbai when hundreds of people were gunned down. On the contrary armed and trained citizens would have made a lot of difference in such a situation.

[xl_target]

So, I'm not the least concerned that Moin and Bowman should have taken the views they did. Let's turn the mirror around and face it back at ourselves: If we cannot talk reasonably and civilly with our two IFG brothers, how on earth will we ever convince someone who is skeptical about gun rights, or even outright hostile?

Absolutely!
I have tried hard to keep my tone neutral and factual (though tone is hard to convey in a forum post). It is because Moin and Bowman are IFG brothers that I have taken the time to make detailed posts with links so that they can read up on alternative material and make up their own minds.

How come this is not mentioned on any CNN, BBC or Wiki for that matter. I had seen Bowling for Columbine by Micheal Moore and I admit lot of it did make sense. How can one not be moved when one hears of such ghastly acts and such innocents loosing their lives in such a manner. Again maybe it's a flawed law and order situation or an incorrect upbringing or irresponsible ownership of something that can be so deadly. Don't know and worng of me to judge. You people there know your situation and are the best judge of what is right and what is wrong. Others like me can only speculate after what is shown in the media and what is available to read on the internet.

As far as Michael Moore goes, he chooses to carefully craft his message so he can direct his viewer to come to only one conclusion; his. There are many in media who do this. The material is out there and not hard to find. Yet they choose to carefully direct their message so you can only come up with one opinion; theirs. Part of the problem is that a lot of the media in the US is now owned by very few people and they want to mold public opinion their way. When I read a mainstream media report now, I look at the source and then do my own research. The internet is their nemesis because you can find out the whole truth from other sources. Circulation numbers for newspapers and news magazines are at an all time low. So much so that a lot of the old names in news have disappeared. They have only themselves to blame. The general public is not as stupid as they assumed. It is hard to read a news report that has just the facts any more. What they don't seem to understand is that most of the general public wants just the facts about an incident and doesn't care two hoots for the reporters opinion or his bias. When a reporter leaves out commonly known (and easily researched) details, I have to assume he did this on purpose. I consider that lying by omission. Once a reporter (or by extension, his network) lies to me, why would I take anything that they have to say seriously? One thing that has been repeated in the media about both the CO theater shooting and the CT shooting is that both perps were wearing bullet proof vests. In both incidents the police have clearly said that they were wearing load bearing vests which are just holders for magazines and equipment. They provide as much bullet proofing as your average denim jacket. Yet this piece of misinformation is being bandied about in the press, the radio and on TV and they want to ban those too. Of course, a piece of kevlar is evil and the reason behind the evil.

Blogs are different, people follow a persons blog to get their take on the incident. You know ahead of time that you are going to get the bloggers opinion. That is why he/she started the blog in the first place.

Do I have my own opinion? Yes, of course, I do. However, I like to think I am open minded enough to examine all the angles before I come to that opinion. I think one of the goals of this forum is to educate. I try to post on a variety of related subjects so people can learn many different things related to our hobby of guns and the outdoors. Of course, the scope of the forum limits what subjects can be posted here but I hope to share some of the things that I am conversant with that relate to this forum. I'm not the only one. There are many more knowledgeable (than me) people on this forum who post on a wide variety of disciplines and subjects related to our hobby/ies

[essdee1972]

Timmy, XL, Baljit, Hammerhead, and the rest.......... (slow clap)

Moin, Bowman, thanks for initiating the debate... made a lot of things clearer......

Thanks to all of you, now I can better take on my anti friends! Michael Moore is God (or at least a Prophet) for some of them!!

Friends (esp our US Chapter members), most of the news / articles / op-eds we see with a pro-gun attitude are from the NRA (or affiliated people), right-wing groups / publications, e.g. National Observer, or Republicans of an extreme persuasion (the lady from Alaska, for example), or even ourselves. The antis are naturally biased against them, and let's face it, it actually sounds like ITC / BAT saying that cigarettes are not so bad as claimed! Can you refer some middle-of-the-road, or even liberal publications, which support our cause? The names, quotations, & statistics can be dropped that much more easily. I am asking you because here we are (sometimes) not aware which publication / organisation is normally rightist, liberal, communist, etc. (of course, we all know the NRA and the Brady Bunch!)

Here in India, it sometimes seems that our member, TC, is the only journalist who is pro-gun! The Times of India, in its sister publication Mumbai Mirror, a couple of days back, ran a full pager on "shockig gun ads in the US". Promote gun use among kids!!!!! Unfortunately, most of the ads dated from 20's, 30's, down to 50's!!!!! You know, something like the old old Ivory ads you see on the history section of the P&G website!!! Hand drawn B&W! Even more unfortunately, I believe very few Mumbai Mirror readers are discriminating or knowledgeable enough to know the difference! (no offence meant to them otherwise)

[timmy]

essdee:

Here are a few sites:

http://www.americangunculturereport.com/
http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/
http://bluesteeldemocrats.blogspot.com/
http://www.liberalswithguns.com/page2.html

These sites have links to other sites, depending on how far you want to pursue your searches. I cannot vouch for the content of any of these sites, as I'm not really familiar with them.

From a personal standpoint, you may have guessed that I probably am not the typical American gun owner from a political orientation perspective. My break with the American gun online community really began to take shape during Hurricane Katrina. I participated quite a bit on a very large and well known gun board, and one of the members was a lawyer who took time off to volunteer for rescue work right after Katrina at some personal risk to himself. He began filing on board reports of going through the flooded city in a boat and telling of the horrors of bodies and such. The reaction of many members to his courageous efforts, frankly, was sickening to me.

So the reason I ended up here was:

1. I wanted to talk and learn about guns
2. I wanted to have a place where I could speak out for RKBA and help that cause in some small way
3. I did not want to get into anymore abusive and unending beatdowns associated with American politics, related to the first part of your post
4. i had and have a large number of South Asian friends, some of whom are very close to me, and I like that kind of environment -- I feel very much at home here, even though I consider myself a guest.

I don't mind talking about US things here. It is my background, after all. But I do try to steer away from American politics because I don't see them mattering very much to Indian problems and because they are distracting and controversial with little promise of being constructive.

Here I have quite a few liberal friends. I think all of my South Asian friends are at least somewhat liberal. Anyway, most all of my friends seem to find me more left than they are, and for that reason they are often shocked when the subjects of guns or religion comes up -- they seldom have anyone in their circle of friends who holds views like mine on those subjects.

It gives me a very unique position, and since my friends are friends, I am accepted and have won some respect for pro-gun positions with them all. I am not saying that i have "converted" them all to my view, but I have converted some! And I've gained respect from the rest.

There aren't many that share the views you are looking for. Personally, I shy away from most any political and ideological writing or media in any form, regardless of left or right. I like history, and try to form viewpoints that can be supported over a range of human experience, as opposed to some wing nut's ravings on some subject, or someone's formulas for utopia, based upon some convoluted babble.

So I can't tell you too much about political movements, as I generally shy away from them. I'm not saying they are wrong, or right. I'm saying they're not for me. So I am lacking a lot of the first hand knowledge an answer to your request needs.

[xl_target]

Esdee,

As far as TC goes, it's not so much that TC is a gun supporter, its that he has integrity.

Journalists in the US have tainted themselves to such an extent that many feel more disdain for them than they feel for lawyers. It doesn't seem to matter if they are right wing or left wing. You have to compare a variety of sources to come up with the whole truth. They all have some sort of bias. There are very few independent media sources anymore. The small town newspaper operated by its owner is pretty much defunct. Most media outlets are owned by conglomerates who in turn are owned by even bigger conglomerates. The tone is set at the top and percolates down throughout the organization.

Check this out:
Examine the companies listed and select each one from the drop-down menu and you will be surprised to see what they own.

[Moin.]

Thank you XL and Timmy. You gentlemen are a real boon to the IFG Forum. I have always believed it is better to ask and look like a fool than not ask and be a fool forever and what better place to ask this than IFG and what better people than the members of IFG.
This is something I know nothing about and prefer keeping my trap shut. I presented a laymans opinion based on what is available to read and watch in the media and like a layman easily swayed by what little information is available to me. Like both of you mentioned, to stop something what happened in CT or what happened in Delhi goes beyond restricting certain gun owner ship in the US or arming every woman strolling down the streets of Delhi or Mumbai with a fire arm. Ofcourse an ideal utopian world would be like John Lenons “Imagine”, but the world is indeed a screwed up place and getting worse. Who knows what the right answers and the right solutions are.
Thank you again for taking the time off for such detailed replies and so much of reading material to go through which I certainly will. I would have certainly loved to ask more but I can’t write as well as you all, I don’t understand firearms like you all and know very little on the subject and is also offending a lot of IFG’ans.

So on a lighter note.
________________________________________________________________________________
Baljit Pa’aji, that’s a big M14 machine gun, what do you do with it? Play commando commando over the week end with Hammer head Pa’ji and XL

Inder, there’s most certainly difference between a knife, a car, a baseball bat and a semi automatic rifle, being an eminent IFG’an you are supposed to know this.

Aloha Yogibear I am coming at you with my khukries to steal your Beretta’s. Try and stop me, the real agenda though is to have a lookie at those Baywatch Hawaii lifeguards in yellow swimsuits

GBM, you sir should be made the Law Minister of India.

Nagarifle for you the pic below

[shooter]

Dear all,
My my fondness for guns is not hidden from y'all.

As a child i had a plastic AR 15 (of course I didnt know that then' back then it was my 'gun machine'). Then growing up my views changed to ownership as a tradition and that we should own them because of tradition. This was also accompanied with the view that it should be limited to the privileged as the uneducated and slum dwellers werent responsible enough to own guns (elitist views).

Then it changed to civillians only need bolt actions and shotguns and that "assault rifles" and semis were either for armed forces or for sissies who couldnt shoot straight. Handguns for me always meant nothing. I mean give me a long gun anyday, I ould defend myself with one; who needs a shotgun.

I always thought that owning guns was a previlige. Travelling the world I met different people and experienced diffrent cultures. I also saw first hand how Britian was falling into an abyss (where gun laws were concerned) and have experienced the gun laws here first hand.

Non availability of newspaper delivery led to me stopping reading regular newspapers (mainstream) and initial syudent life led to not having TV. I was forced to evaluate situations and make my own conclusions based on my IQ, education, perception, my logic rather based on media feeding.

After all the medias comments are also the journalists perceptions. So why do i have to assume that these media journalists have more sense than me and that I have to listen to their viewpoint. Thinking about various laws, various opinions etc led me to form my own. without media brainwashing or bias.

The RKBA concept came to my mind. I am such a firm believer that I have done something that very few people here or even in NAGRI/NRA do. I joined anti-gun sites. Associated with antis. Made friends with them. I paid money to an anti in his find raising campaign (£26). This way I found their view point and also their agendas re: what they think about us and how they operate. I also went with an open mind that maybe it is the pro-gun propoganda that is swaying me; so let me hear the anti-gun propaganda as well.

First things first: Divide and rule. Gun owners are not united. Rifle shooters vs shotgunners. handgunners vs. "assault rifle" lovers. In the UK, after the 2 mass shootings, on being asked by the Govt. the shooting organisations stated that there was no "need" for semi auto rifles. hence they were banned. Ditto in Australia. Shooting organisations supported their banning. What did they do in the UK with the semi and hand gun ban? They piggybacked the expanding ammo ban because they could. Exanding ammo had nothing to do with the mass shootings; but because of the media and public 'support' the govt. knew they could get away with anything. So they banned expanding ammo; just like that.

Do you know what the antis discuss in their organisations? "lets start with banning assault weapons. Then we can go after the rest. We wont be able to ban all at the same time."

Gun restrictions dont stop with one type of weapon.

Example in the UK:

1) We will only ban full auto. You dont need it.
Sheeple: thats right. OK fine.

2) We will only ban handguns. You dont need it.
Sheeple: thats right. OK fine.

3) We will only ban expanding ammo. You dont need it.
Sheeple: thats right. OK fine. (note. Expanding ammo is not banned but 'restricted'. one needs to ask for permission to buy.)

Then of course the knife crime increased as thugs reverted to using knives.

4) We will only ban knives carrying. You dont need it.
Sheeple: thats right. OK fine.

5) We will only ban taser. You dont need it.
Sheeple: thats right. OK fine.

6) We will only ban pepper spray. You dont need it.
Sheeple: thats right. OK fine.

7) We will only ban bows/arrows. You dont need it.
Sheeple: thats right. OK fine.

We will only ban fox hunting. You dont need it.
Sheeple: thats right. OK fine.

9) already media ampaigns against trophy hunting is on. Its already looked down upon. My friend who has shot the Big 5 several times over doesnt tell other shooters about it lest he lose popularity.

Now we all know when prince phillip dies, they will ban puntgunning.

Sadly in the UK shooters still remain divided. They make fun of americans and do not think gun ownership is a right. They still ask "why do you need it"

IANSA Rebecca was in australia and other places asking "why do you need semi auto rifles for sporting purpose? Its not an olympic sport". In the Uk same question. people replied yes handgun shooting is an olympic sport. She said "find another sport".

You guys seriously belive its a question of need?

Do you know UK bill of rights signed by king charles gurantees right to bear weapons. But no one ever defended it or exercised it so they just lost it.... without a fight. People today dont even know about it.

When my friends today ask me why I have so many guns (sorry american brothers, i mean by uk standards). I say, because I can and if i, like others say why do i need more than 1 rifle; and everyone just buys one rifle, 10 yrs down the line they will limit rifle limit to 1. And the sheeple will say: thats right. OK fine.


So forget all the things like fighting crime, need, guns save life . Its to be exercised.

I do have to tell my american brothers who use UK stats to prove why gun control doesnt work. I have to disagree with the UK example. Even when we were allowed handguns and semis, we werent allowed carry rights or self defence rights.businessmen werent allowed to defend their shops with guns. Just like today though we may have rifles and shotguns, we cant use them for self defence. Till 2011 UK gun laws were very pro-perp. and anti-victim. Many a paople have recieved sentences for shooting burglars and home invaders.

I do firmly believe in the right to self defence and carry. I wish to god that one day we have that in the UK. As stated elsewhere, India is lucky to have pro self defence and pro carry laws.

What IFG people need to understand s that gunowners need to be united right noew. We are in a war with the Antis. A war that on many fronts we are losing. This is the time to stick together no matter what battalion or regiment we are in. Not say we are infantry why do we need cavalry.or armoured saying why do we need signals.

Not needing more than ones requirement is a very communist concept. No matter what you do, you get this much money because you dont need any more. You can have soial housing as you dont need a mansion. Similarly a collective responsibility for one mans actions is also a very non-democratic conept. To day if a soldier deserts, he pays the consequence. In Genghis khans army, the whole platon was exeuted. An individual being responsible and answerable for ones actions and not the whole society is a good concept. Unfortunately India is constitutionally a socialist system Im not sure how much those civics lessons in school and media has changed our mindset on a subconcious level.

If i have done something for e.g. theft then i have to serve time not the society for treating me badly and making me a thief. Similarly If i have achieved something like financially or intellectually then i get the nobel prize/ money not my school teahers/ professors/ my teachers or the society.

So why should the society have to pay for one persons actions.

In Delhi, bombay all over India there is news of people being stabbed and murdered. I humbly request moin to please get rid of his knives and Olly, and Mack The Knife to join him. Similarly i noticed in your pics that yor room was quite spacious. According to soial medicine standards, yo dont need so much space to live so either move to a smaller house or get more people in your room. Having bigger than necessary houses causes pollution, deforestation, inflation of land prices all this which in turn affects a lot of people. Similarly heart disease kills a lot of people. One doesnt really need butter or a rich diet. All the supporters of this "need theory" are requested to give up oil, butter, ghee, red meat, etc etc.

I can go on and on extrapolating this "need theory" bt I hope you got the point.

In the end I am pasting a real conversation i had with another Dr. and the pharmacist last night over dinner. Lets all the Dr. as "J" and the pharmaist as "P" and I am of course shooter "s".

P: so what do you think of the CT shooting.
s: It was very sad. What an unnecessary loss of life. I dont know why people do suh a thing.
j: Do you know that they are proposing armed guards in schools now. Isnt that ridiculous?
p: yes.
s: absolutely. Why cant they just give the teachers right to carry and not declare schools gun free.
P+J: What teachers with guns?!!
s: well If you cant trust a teacher with a gun, how can you trust them with your children?
P+J:but still............teachers and guns.........
s: in Israel they carry guns. No teaher shot a kid ever.
P+J: but wouldnt it be better if they had stricter laws?
s: he broke 41-43 laws the penalty forsome may be death in some places BEFORE he got to the school. And you say stricter laws? Ameria has more gun laws than the UK. Did yo even know that.
J: yes but they dont undergo psychological testing there.
s: actually i am a qualified psychiatrist and I would really like to know what testing can predict that a man is going to commit murder.
j: but at least here they have this testing.
s: no they dont. I have a license and I wasnt tested.
j: but they look for your record. A person with mental illness cant buy a gun in the UK.
S: neither can they in the US. Its the law.
j: but over here the gun has to be "broken" and components stored separately.
s: and that prevents a murder how exactly? when these mass shootings are planned for days whats another 15 minutes to "join" the "broken" rifle. By the way firstly its not broken it is bolt off. And "separately" doesnt mean another room nor another safe. Putting a bolt in takes a few seconds. Plan murder doesnt need quick access to guns but defence from a killer does. All this storage of ammo bolt etc locked and separately doesnt prevent murder.
p: yes but it prevents kids shooting themselves accidently.
s: maybe it does. But we are talking about mass killings. Not waving an emotional card about irresponsible parentng. in the same note More children die of drowning than by guns. Moreover a swimming pool is certainly not necessary for the society to function. Lets just close them down too.
P+J: but we like to swim. Why should we suffer if someone elses kids have drowned.
s: Shhh makes you sound like cold hearted bastards. Wheres your sympathy now. Similarly I wont pay with my guns for someone elses actions.
P+J: here comes the dessert. by the way do yo know what happened at work today...........

re: michael moore. I posted about bowling for columbine here many years ago. In fact i had used some instances from the movie to support RKBA.A member actually joined this site to reply to my post and made me look at the other sode of michael moore. I think it is his only post on ifg but I thank him for pulling me out of the media-propaganda-quickstand.

[YogiBear]

Aloha,

Moin, if you saw the Real lifeguards we have on the beaches

you'd use your khukri on yourself,

unless you like men who walk under 30 feet of water carrying 30+ pound rocks.

http://www.sdcitybeat.com/sandiego/arti ... nning.html

[xl_target]

Aloha,

Moin, if you saw the Real lifeguards we have on the beaches

you'd use your khukri on yourself,

Shooter,
Thanks for taking the time to make that detailed post.
You have a lot more patience than I do.
When I end up in a discussion with friends that I care about, friends who espouse a radically different mindset than me, I usually change the subject before I get so pissed off that I will say something to them that I regret.

[Baljit]

Xl , i think you should do that because you are not the only one going to pissed off here. maybe after you i am the next guy in the line.This is nothing but BS


Baljit

[Moin.]

Aloha,

Moin, if you saw the Real lifeguards we have on the beaches

you'd use your khukri on yourself,

unless you like men who walk under 30 feet of water carrying 30+ pound rocks.

http://www.sdcitybeat.com/sandiego/arti ... nning.html

, damn, Starplus...... How I loved that show....

Thanks
Yogibear.

[Moin.]

Xl , i think you should do that because you are not the only one going to pissed off here. maybe after you i am the next guy in the line.This is nothing but BS


Baljit

Why BS Pa'aji, are'nt people entitled to hold an opinion different from what ones perception of the truth or what may be the truth. I have thanked XL and Timmy and I hold the greatest respect for these gentlemen. They have given a lot of reading material and I myself want to understand the subject clearly. What is BS about this.

Well if you found the joke offending, it was on a lighter note. So apologies for that.I thought interacting with all of IFG'ans for so long I could take that liberty.

Regards
Moin.

[mundaire]

Moin, for the sake of accuracy - the M14 is not a machine gun i.e. it is a semi-auto rifle and NOT a full auto.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Moin.]

Moin, for the sake of accuracy - the M14 is not a machine gun i.e. it is a semi-auto rifle and NOT a full auto.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

Thanks Abhijeet. I am not trying to be anti gun or arguing with what Timmy and XL have to say, maybe the manner I am putting it across may be offending to a lot of IFG'ians.I am unable to articulate this as well as Xl or Timmy and the last thing I want to do is upset them or any other IFGian.

I consider my self as much a member of this community and enjoy this as much as everyone else. I am only making an attempt to understand that is that firearms can be used to a deadly effect in the wrong hands, fireams have the potential to cause a lot of damage in the wrong hands as compared to say a knife, a sword or a baseball bat. Stopping a perp with a fire arm is more difficult for the police or law enforcement than stopping someone with a knife or a baseball bat.

That is the reason that as XL pointed out you just can't walk into a supermarket and buy firearms like you buy your grocery without fulffilling the above mentioned formalities, not in the US or Canada and not anywhere in the world. The laws are not the same when it comes to buying knives or baseball bats or cars.

There is also a great responsibilty which comes with great power for causing damage. There is nothing wrong in Law Abiding citizens owing what ever firearms or knives or swords or tanks for that matter if they can afford and own it responsibly. Like Shooter who is a psychiatrist said that it is impossible for any doctor to predict when one will be going to kill someone, what is the solution. Is the solution to the violence arming every citizen with a fire arms. Would you be wanting your kids to be walking down the street when there is a pistol or a revolver or a knife tucked into every waistband.

How then one draws the line as to who should be posseing a firearm and who should not, how does a law maker frame laws in such a case. What does law enforcement do when every other citizen is capable to respond of responding with deadly force. Going by this logic then even automatic rifles should be as easily available to the common man as a semi auto or a rifle or a handgun. GBM gave the example of mumbai attacks, if someone was armed with a pistol or revolver would he have tried to take those scumbags with automatic kalashnikovs with their handguns. Finally it took special forces commadoes to neutralise that threat. Does that implay that every mumbaikar should be armed with an automatic rifle since the threat is from Kalashnikovs and grenades. So can failed intellegence, incapable national security, draconian laws and a flawed law and order system be addressed by making fire arms more accessible is the answer I am looking for and something I need to do a lot of reading on from the links provided by XL and Timmy and further not waste any of their time with my dodo queries.

Regards
Moin.

Thanks
Moin.

[xl_target]

Moin,
Please understand, we are not interested in coming down on, belittling, chastising or upsetting any of our members on this forum. Please don't ever feel that you have to explain yourself to anyone, especially me. You asked a question and most of us are trying to expose you to explanations and information from other sources. Sources that have way more experience with firearms than us (well, than me, at least).

If you read nothing else, you and anyone interested in the subject of gun control should read this article. Larry Correa, the author, is a best selling author and has had extensive experience in the fire arms field, including manufacturing (legal) firearms. He is not lying to you. The points and arguments he makes are based on facts and his experiences.

In fact, I would encourage every member of IFG to read it. While it is written for an American audience and about the American gun scene, you will have anti-gun folks bring up these same questions. You will be able to honestly and accurately answer most of their questions. It is a little long but I guarantee you that it is worth the time if you are interested in the subject.

There is also a great responsibilty which comes with great power for causing damage. There is nothing wrong in Law Abiding citizens owing what ever firearms or knives or swords or tanks for that matter if they can afford and own it responsibly. Like Shooter who is a psychiatrist said that it is impossible for any doctor to predict when one will be going to kill someone, what is the solution. Is the solution to the violence arming every citizen with a fire arms. Would you be wanting your kids to be walking down the street when there is a pistol or a revolver or a knife tucked into every waistband.

Humor me. Please read the article before we discuss the above paragraph.
I would like to discuss this with you . Once you have read the article, when I bring up a point, you will know what I am talking about and I wont have to keep repeating certain concepts as you will already be familiar with them.