We should interview Abhinav Bindra for RKBA

[mundaire]

Chief.. what about actually inviting Bindra for an interview with IFG

Anyone here know the gent personally? If they can take the initiative to break the ice we could do something along those lines...

[marksman]

A wealthy Ace Shooter wins gold and govt. gives him 3+ crores in awards.
Another Ace Shooter dies fighting terrorists and govt. pays his family 5 lacks.
Guess the real Winner?
Marksman

[dev]

Yes, I agree... rather, I mostly do. Somehow, something is not allowing me to completely agree with you, and yet, at the same time, I know there is surely a lot of sense in what you say

What the recent sight of a bunch of guys, armed with airguns plastering tin cans while laughing their guts out.

Dev

[TenX]

Yes, I agree... rather, I mostly do. Somehow, something is not allowing me to completely agree with you, and yet, at the same time, I know there is surely a lot of sense in what you say

What the recent sight of a bunch of guys, armed with airguns plastering tin cans while laughing their guts out.

Dev

[mundaire]

What about the other 47%. They will be even more susceptible now, considering availability of arms at ease.

Do you really think so? Do you really really believe that criminals are queuing up to apply for arms licenses? A "free" licensing regime merely puts more guns into the hands of those that actually wish to adhere to the law in letter and spirit, the ones who don't care a hoot about the laws are already picking up illegal arms and I may add at a fraction of the cost of legal arms. There was a sting operation by a magazine recently (the link should be in the news feed here as well) wherein they had proven that you can get an AK-47 in the black market for under INR 70K! Compare that to the fact that sportsmen (without arms licenses) have to make do with buying imported airguns at INR 45K and upwards and those with licenses would pay that much (at the very least) for a good imported double shotty... forget about buying O/U 's or repeating rifles at anywhere close to that price...

Another thing is that, people still rob with kitchen knives, create havoc with kerosene bottles; road-rages aplenty; etc etc... In such a situation, how much would the concept of 'free-arming' help?

Exactly my point! A homicide victim can draw absolutely no consolation from the fact that he was bludgeoned to death in stead of being shot! Please consider the fact that criminals plan their ambushes/ crimes to catch their victims unaware and (mostly) alone. They also (mostly) attack in larger numbers than their intended victims (ratios of 2 on 1 or more); in this case greater ease in procuring arms would undoubtedly help even out things a bit in favour of the victims and force criminals to look for easier (safer) sources of income...

It will give the evil side an advantage which people dread.

They already hold an advantage as explained above, a freer licensing regime would only help even the odds in favour of the "good guys"!

Not that I do, or for that matter, anyone in IFG... but going a bit beyond.. The masses are a question that cannot be answered.
There has been a wrong balance formed around us, and 'arming' all of them, without the right responsibility, education or awareness may not be the best deal.

Every single human has an innate sense of right and wrong. Even when committing a crime the criminal "knows" that he is doing something wrong and they have to somehow justify the crime in their own minds. Which is why the ones who feel no sense of "wrongdoing" are looked upon with a sense of shock and unease by the rest of us... as they are the exception and not the rule! The so called sociopaths...

If your reference is to the populace at general not having a sense of safe gun handling etc. Then the only way to "cure that" is also through greater access! This time I had the opportunity to visit a free muncipal shooting range in USA and even though there were no officials/ range officers present every single shooter behaved in a safe manner - no supervision required at all! Like I said, only increased access can solve that issue. For example no one is born with the ability to drive a car, and if he never has access to one neither will he ever learn. Give him a car and lessons and pretty much everyone can learn to drive a car. Since we are talking about cars, have you considered the fact that India has one of the highest fatality rates (in the world) per KM of highway travelled? Far more people die on our roads, are disabled for life etc. than people who suffer from gun crime/ accidents - but I don't hear anyone shouting for a ban on cars! Why? Because we are all familiar with cars, we see them everyday and know that a ban on cars would adversely impact our freedom to move. So we willingly give up a "safer" environment for the benefit of freer mobility.

Why is a similar demand not being made for freer access to guns? Well, because historically only relatively few families have owned guns and the overwhelming majority have only seen them on TV/ in the movies being used by criminals... a fear of the unknown is an understandable reaction. Which is where my comment on being a product of 200 years of slavery was directed... Allow for freer access to guns, build more places for people to shoot these guns and watch how things automatically snowball...

How much ever I would love to have a big large collection of guns, there is a bit of dread in seeing them in the hands of the several many who are careless and irresponsible; those who love to break bottles on the street calling it a 'night-out'; those who raid parties in the name of some local association; those who bully for a living. The wrong balance I talked about has more to do with a greater percentage of the non-aware 'janta', which may not be so in Yonderland

Now this is a purely elitist statement, and (unfortunately) not an uncommon sentiment amongst gun owners in India! What makes you or any of these other gun owners "special" that you should be allowed to keep guns, while the public at large is denied? Do any of you have any "special" genes that make you more responsible than the rest?

As to the thugs who get drunk and shoot models/ bar tenders - well they actually belong to the "self-entitled" elite, who will ALWAYS have guns whether you like it or not!! Their actions are based on the simple fact that they believe that they can (literally) get away with murder. Restricting the general public from owning guns only makes such thugs even more brazen. Do you think Manu Sharma would have had the guts to pull out his revolver if he knew that there was even a 50% chance that Jessica Lal had a sawn off shotgun under the bar?

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[TenX]

Very well said. There are certainly a lot of eye-openers in what you say.

... a fear of the unknown is an understandable reaction. ...

I totally agree to this point, and have mentioned several times that we dont yet have the outlook, and most people would fear for their kids to go and learn shooting We should get around this...
Maybe (a big maybe) would be to throw open arms owning and places to shoot. But (another big But), would we really give the required training to those who would want to have these to protect themselves.

Take the example of automobiles that you mentioned. How many people really follow rules, get a DL without bribing... As you say, in the US, the people followed careful and good gun-handling. They also dont bribe for a DL and obey traffic rules more often then not. But the majority populace of India goes thru short-cuts for most ventures. They dont care to abide by the system, pay bribes for their driving license, jump signals, what not. Would you really feel comfortable in making arms open for them?

Although I would love to see a free India with access to good arms and ammunition; although I would love to see our engineers work in great big factories making world-class guns; and although I would love to have world-class olympic champs in shooting sports, I am just as bothered about the proper training and imparting of rules in India.
It is more of a concern than a negative vote

[TenX]

...Do you think Manu Sharma would have had the guts to pull out his revolver if he knew that there was even a 50% chance that Jessica Lal had a sawn off shotgun under the bar?...

Would you think there would be only one drunk Manu Sharma in the party

[TenX]

BTW, Can any mods please change this topic header (Abhinav instead of Abhijeet)

[mundaire]

A wealthy Ace Shooter wins gold and govt. gives him 3+ crores in awards.
Another Ace Shooter dies fighting terrorists and govt. pays his family 5 lacks.
Guess the real Winner?
Marksman

You are comparing apples and oranges my friend. Mr. Bindra has a "marketability" and the politicians are simply capitalising on that... something that they always do. While we are at it, why forget the fact that the policeman's family is still getting 5 Lacs, what about the hundreds of jawans who lay down their lives while fighting terror in places like J&K and the NE?

... a fear of the unknown is an understandable reaction. ...

I totally agree to this point, and have mentioned several times that we dont yet have the outlook, and most people would fear for their kids to go and learn shooting We should get around this...
Maybe (a big maybe) would be to throw open arms owning and places to shoot. But (another big But), would we really give the required training to those who would want to have these to protect themselves.

It does not take long for outlooks to change. Not so long back (my Gramps generation), it was a real no no for girls (and to an extent guys) from good families to join show biz. Times change and now you see parents pushing their daughters to go for beauty pageants etc. It is simply a matter of exposure, more exposure almost always equals a more broad minded outlook towards things. But how do you expect people to be exposed to guns & shooting if they cannot even get their hands on one? Would we give proper training? Why not? Don't we have motor driving schools as commercial ventures? If there is a large enough demand it wouldn't take long for shooting schools to spring up... money (investment) always follows market demand - economics 101.

Take the example of automobiles that you mentioned. How many people really follow rules, get a DL without bribing... As you say, in the US, the people followed careful and good gun-handling. They also dont bribe for a DL and obey traffic rules more often then not. But the majority populace of India goes thru short-cuts for most ventures. They dont care to abide by the system, pay bribes for their driving license, jump signals, what not. Would you really feel comfortable in making arms open for them?

So do you think that Indians are just plain genetically predisposed to corruption and bribery or are you willing to concede that there may be something wrong with our systems that leads to endemic corruption at every level? Also, what makes you think that the current arms licensing process is not open to this sort of corruption? My friend are you so naive as to believe that people do not frequently bribe their way to an arms license? A clean and easy licensing regime or better still no licensing at all would even out the playing field and allow people who are unwilling or unable to bribe/ apply "pressure" to procure arms.

I keep reading reports in the paper wherein senior police officers from Delhi have admitted that more than 80% of all guns in Delhi are unlicensed guns... and this is Delhi, the seat of government and a city with the highest police/ population ratio in the country!! What do you think that ratio would be in the badlands of UP or other such places?

The reason why a lot of people don't obey traffic rules here is self-evident, as is the reason why people in the west do and it has nothing to do with national character.

Although I would love to see a free India with access to good arms and ammunition; although I would love to see our engineers work in great big factories making world-class guns; and although I would love to have world-class olympic champs in shooting sports, I am just as bothered about the proper training and imparting of rules in India.
It is more of a concern than a negative vote

As elaborated above, a free licensing/ no licensing requirement regime simply puts more guns into the hands of the good guys. The crooks already have guns, not seeing this fact is ignoring the stark reality of how gun control has always contributed to crime and not curbed it.

Would you think there would be only one drunk Manu Sharma in the party

And which one of those cowards do you think would have had the guts to face up to armed resistance to their bullying? Bullies like Manu Sharma target only those that they are certain cannot fight back... Till such time that these scum are secure in the knowledge that there is only a 1% chance of encountering armed resistance to their bullying these incidents will repeat themselves over and over again.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[TenX]

It does not take long for outlooks to change. Not so long back (my Gramps generation), it was a real no no for girls (and to an extent guys) from good families to join show biz. Times change and now you see parents pushing their daughters to go for beauty pageants etc. It is simply a matter of exposure, more exposure almost always equals a more broad minded outlook towards things.

Yes, right about that.. Exposure leads to market demand and supply. No questions on that one I also feel that once its open, prices are sure to drop, the actual buying capacity, which is now in mostly the elite and such classes, will come down to middle class people too - as in the car market

So do you think that Indians are just plain genetically predisposed to corruption and bribery or are you willing to concede that there may be something wrong with our systems that leads to endemic corruption at every level? Also, what makes you think that the current arms licensing process is not open to this sort of corruption? My friend are you so naive as to believe that people do not frequently bribe their way to an arms license? A clean and easy licensing regime or better still no licensing at all would even out the playing field and allow people who are unwilling or unable to bribe/ apply "pressure" to procure arms.

Nothing to do with Indian genes or anything such. It is surely the system and the circumstance and the large population and many more. What I did try to mention was that the corrupt system will not enforce things the way it was supposed to. I know people who are govt Class A/B contractors, who openly agree that less than 33% of alloted money go into any govt. project. The remaining is just eaten up from the minister's chair to the chowkidar. But these projects are mostly those that we cannot do without. We cannot say that there is no 100% compliance and we should not build roads. We still have to agree to the 33% or whatever, and feel sated In this scenario, the ideal picture we create for opening easy owning of arms "May" not be followed. But to know which side is right, we need to implement it. To do this, and to fail would prove critical. To do this and prove otherwise, would surely eliminate all Manu Sharmas from brandishing their third arm.

As elaborated above, a free licensing/ no licensing requirement regime simply puts more guns into the hands of the good guys. The crooks already have guns, not seeing this fact is ignoring the stark reality of how gun control has always contributed to crime and not curbed it.

Abhijeet, I dont think that all crooks have guns. Maybe those who are into anti-national stuff, those who deal with international mafia and such are armed. There are still a whole lot of brawls, fist fights and such that happen in the huge population. Knives, crude 'longs' (swords) and such are some of the more renowned weapons that is used. I dont doubt for a minute that innocent would be privileged with the support of free arms with proper awareness, but this majority of the miscreants will also have access, right? This is not something easy to control in this big mass. There are also not enough enforcers in India, be it the traffic or the crime cops. Given this scenario, how would we
(a) control the major section of rowdies and such by prevention of access, (I know that you feel this control will not matter, if even the innocent are armed. My point is that the fist fights that happen in everyday wine-stores may cause more blood to spill)
(b) have enough control people, be it in issuing or licensing, to ensure free trade in legal and normative ways,
(c) bring about a good sense of awareness, when such awareness is not found in any other system, be it on roads, trains, business, income tax....)

Point (c) above is, matter of fact, a wonderful discussion on the general improvement and management of systems around us. Maybe there are proven systems which the authority dont implement, but there surely is a lack of proper education, civic sense and awareness that seem to be the bigger, rather smaller bottleneck

[Vikram]

Tenx, if you don't mind me easing into the discussion, I understand your concerns and compliment you for bringing out what a great many feel about guns.

Think we are getting stuck by taking words in literal sense."Free" arms licensing does not mean one can simply walk in and walk out with a gun. There will be background checks for criminal records,offences etc. There will still be a great deal of controls on their usage.

To give you a couple of historical examples, Hitler used poison gas only against the Jews in the War,never against the Allied forces.They had the same thing and would use it. USA used the atom bomb on Japan because there was no threat of similar retaliation.

Criminals,rowdies and other malcontents operate on fear.They key is fear. The moment there is a scope for retaliation or armed opposition, the chances of them committing their original plans are lesser.

You need to ask if one Manu Sharma killed in a drunken rage or sheer arrogance, why not a great majority of gun owners indulging in similar acts.

On the same logic, if one drunk driver kills someone, rest of us all should be banned from driving? Here in Uk, they are planning to ban knives because teen gangs are using knives to attack each other.Can you believe it? I can kill a man if I want to, with my hands and plenty others actually killed with their hands.Can we take their hands off?

One need not be a terrorist or international mafia types to own an illegal gun.You know it how many illegal muzzle loaders you can find in the country side.There were so many Khattas and tamanchas confiscated in Hyderabad alone.Go to North India, probably quite a few millions are there floating around.

BTW, is it alright not to have a gun if your assailant is weilding only a knife or a talwar? Whoever said it's fair to give an even break to a criminal ? In a fight or a dangerous situation, you would need all the tactical advantage over your assailant. You would want a .44 magnum if your would be marauder has a pocket knife in his hands or do you really believe in giving him an even break?

Best-
Vikram

[TenX]

Tenx, if you don't mind me easing into the discussion, I understand your concerns and compliment you for bringing out what a great many feel about guns.

Hi Vikram..
I have no problem with you easing into the discussion This is your discussion as much as mine. Matter of fact, only when we all healthily opine will we all understand better ...

BTW, is it alright not to have a gun if your assailant is weilding only a knife or a talwar? Whoever said it's fair to give an even break to a criminal ? In a fight or a dangerous situation, you would need all the tactical advantage over your assailant. You would want a .44 magnum if your would be marauder has a pocket knife in his hands or do you really believe in giving him an even break?

What I would like to clarify is that it is simple the best solution to have the innocent armed to protect/defend themselves. There is no two ways about it, and I am for it...

Aso, I know there are a lot of Manu Sharmas around, and I dont actually vote for the ban either.

The US nuke or Hitler's gassing are decisions more than brawls and fights... in some sense. So would not really consider that logic here

What I am concerned about is:

...There will be background checks for criminal records,offences etc. There will still be a great deal of controls on their usage. ...

My logic is that a complete implementation of easier procurement and training of arms is due, and would surely aid. But are we ready for it?

This is one of my more important concerns. Are we really that binding to do proper background checks? Considering the quality of verification that happens for getting a SIM card or even a credit card, there are so many back-door entries that need to be closed. I hope you understand what I mean

[kanwar76]

Abhijeet, I dont think that all crooks have guns. Maybe those who are into anti-national stuff, those who deal with international mafia and such are armed.

That’s not exactly the case, yep may in Bangalore but I have heard katta's going for so low price that even a kid can buy half a dozen from his pocket money in some parts of our country and believe me they buy.

IIRC There was news from Tehelka where star pistols were sold for INR 25K so if somebody wants to buy a gun for crime I don’t think he will spend 60-70K for an IOF piece and about fist fights, people know that at the most they will get roughed up.. If they have a fear that other person will be carrying a piece then even instances of fist fights will go down...

There is a reason why there are few instances of shooting at ranges than schools

-Inder

[TenX]

That’s not exactly the case, yep may in Bangalore but I have heard katta's going for so low price that even a kid can buy half a dozen from his pocket money in some parts of our country. ...

This IS news to me. Not that I doubt it.. I think I doubt my circumstantial-perception

[kanwar76]

That’s not exactly the case, yep may in Bangalore but I have heard katta's going for so low price that even a kid can buy half a dozen from his pocket money in some parts of our country. ...

This IS news to me. Not that I doubt it.. I think I doubt my circumstantial-perception

See this http://www.tehelka.com/story_main37.asp ... _70000.asp

-Inder