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The need for Indian Citizens to be legally armed

Discussions on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.
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mundaire
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The need for Indian Citizens to be legally armed

Postby mundaire » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:18 am

Check out the following article by Tara Kartha, she seems to arrive at the conclusion that Indian citizens do need to be legally armed, to be able to combat all pervasive violent crime - but then she lapses back into the mainstream utopian narrative of the need to eradicate all guns! :roll:

http://www.firstpost.com/india/gun-cont ... 13169.html

A pause to the throwing up of hands at all this skullduggery on foreign shores is however indicated. Available data seems to indicate that parts of India, particularly New Delhi are going the same way as parts of the United States. The National Crime Records Bureau, which is supposed to provide all crime-related data for the country, observed that more than 53,000 firearms were seized in 2015 under the Arms Act. There are two problems with this data. First, it is a given that most states don’t bother to report cases on time, or even when they do report it, are lackadaisical about their precision. So, actual figures are likely to be far higher. Second, the last data that the Bureau has is for 2015. So, that's not data, it's history.

The trends shown even in 2015 are, however, instructive even if unsurprising. The top states for incidents involving death by guns were Uttar Pradesh with 1,617 such incidents, followed by Bihar with 685 and then Jharkhand with 638 such cases. Madhya Pradesh followed with 189 deaths. Surprisingly, Jammu and Kashmir cases were only at 45 and Tamil Nadu with just one.

Here's a surprising fact though. In terms of death by licensed weapons, Bihar again comes at the top but is closely followed by Punjab. Again, the highest number of weapons seizures were not in the Naxal affected areas but Uttar Pradesh (24,498), which easily topped the list, followed by Madhya Pradesh (8,676), which together accounted for more than sixty percent of all seizures in the country.

Rajasthan comes third in gun seizures (6,030) while Kashmir again lags far behind with just 122. South Indian states showed the least attachment to weapons. Clearly, there is a cultural factor in play here. Anyone who had travelled in the central states will attest to the fact that nearly every man in rural areas carries a gun of some kind. In this, the north, with its turbulent history, sees guns as part of everyday life in much the same way that the average rural American does.

Of the 53,272 weapons seized, only 1,241 were factory made licensed weapons. This is hardly a cause for relief. Illicit gun manufacturers in Munger (Bihar) and Khargone (Madhya Pradesh) are getting better at their jobs. Both places were once the site of Ordnance Factories, and every family had at least one employee in this sector. Lathe machines abound, and with better materials available, these outfits can give regular manufacturers a run for their money.

Delhi's gun markets are supplied mainly from these areas, though a large part of cross-border illicit trade also feeds these markets. According to reports, everything from a 12 bore rifle to an AK-47 is now available in the capital. Police reports point to the seizure of Walther PPK pistols, which are sold for about three lakh, and the German Mauser for a little less. These elegant weapons are then sold to dealers in Agra, Mathura and nearby areas, where such weapons are in great demand.

The Munger made arms are, however, good enough for Delhi's criminals. Not long ago, a policeman was shot when trying to stop bag snatchers. This indicates that guns have made their way considerably down the criminal chain. In other words, a law-abiding citizen is likely to be more under threat from gun violence, than before. The question then arises - are such citizens then justified in seeking a licensed firearm themselves?

The National Association for Gun Rights in India (NAGRI), a nascent gun rights group, argues just that. Their position is that the right to bear arms is part of our fundamental rights in the Constitution. Rather reasonably, it is argued that law-abiding citizens have progressively been denied their right to self-defence, with the government tightening the licensing of guns. The present government quietly overhauled the archaic Arms Rules of 1962 with a new set of rules, that while encouraging private investment in the gun business, also tightened licensing procedure.


There is also a new nation-wide database on gun licenses, which will technically, allow easier tracking of licensed weapons. All of this is excellent work by the home ministry. The trouble is that the vast majority of the weapons seized in criminal hands are unlicensed and unmarked. Even the Chinese automatic weapons that are available in gun markets all over the country have their manufacture and batch numbers sawed off. The gun-rights lobby, therefore, has a point. The illicit trade will continue, while the legal owners are in a bind.

One way out is to regularise the gun markets and manufacturers of Bihar and elsewhere, and provide them with quality training and machines, allied with strict oversight and control. The obvious problem is that any credible oversight in the Indian system is usually made a mockery of within a few years or less.

Alternatively, these units could be trained to provide specific parts for the larger manufacturers. This requires a transition from the present "mom and pop" manufacturing process, to one that is far more streamlined and professional, even while building on resident skills in these towns that are virtually part of a bloodline.

'Make in India' need not involve only the big guns. The locals also need to be brought on board. Policy needs to go in this direction to fuse both the large manufacturing initiatives together with a policy on crime control. No one can dispute that urban India is becoming altogether a more violent place to live in.


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panzernain
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:08 pm

Re: The need for Indian Citizens to be legally armed

Postby panzernain » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:48 am

mundaire wrote:Check out the following article by Tara Kartha, she seems to arrive at the conclusion that Indian citizens do need to be legally armed, to be able to combat all pervasive violent crime - but then she lapses back into the mainstream utopian narrative of the need to eradicate all guns! :roll:

http://www.firstpost.com/india/gun-cont ... 13169.html

A pause to the throwing up of hands at all this skullduggery on foreign shores is however indicated. Available data seems to indicate that parts of India, particularly New Delhi are going the same way as parts of the United States. The National Crime Records Bureau, which is supposed to provide all crime-related data for the country, observed that more than 53,000 firearms were seized in 2015 under the Arms Act. There are two problems with this data. First, it is a given that most states don’t bother to report cases on time, or even when they do report it, are lackadaisical about their precision. So, actual figures are likely to be far higher. Second, the last data that the Bureau has is for 2015. So, that's not data, it's history.

The trends shown even in 2015 are, however, instructive even if unsurprising. The top states for incidents involving death by guns were Uttar Pradesh with 1,617 such incidents, followed by Bihar with 685 and then Jharkhand with 638 such cases. Madhya Pradesh followed with 189 deaths. Surprisingly, Jammu and Kashmir cases were only at 45 and Tamil Nadu with just one.

Here's a surprising fact though. In terms of death by licensed weapons, Bihar again comes at the top but is closely followed by Punjab. Again, the highest number of weapons seizures were not in the Naxal affected areas but Uttar Pradesh (24,498), which easily topped the list, followed by Madhya Pradesh (8,676), which together accounted for more than sixty percent of all seizures in the country.

Rajasthan comes third in gun seizures (6,030) while Kashmir again lags far behind with just 122. South Indian states showed the least attachment to weapons. Clearly, there is a cultural factor in play here. Anyone who had travelled in the central states will attest to the fact that nearly every man in rural areas carries a gun of some kind. In this, the north, with its turbulent history, sees guns as part of everyday life in much the same way that the average rural American does.

Of the 53,272 weapons seized, only 1,241 were factory made licensed weapons. This is hardly a cause for relief. Illicit gun manufacturers in Munger (Bihar) and Khargone (Madhya Pradesh) are getting better at their jobs. Both places were once the site of Ordnance Factories, and every family had at least one employee in this sector. Lathe machines abound, and with better materials available, these outfits can give regular manufacturers a run for their money.

Delhi's gun markets are supplied mainly from these areas, though a large part of cross-border illicit trade also feeds these markets. According to reports, everything from a 12 bore rifle to an AK-47 is now available in the capital. Police reports point to the seizure of Walther PPK pistols, which are sold for about three lakh, and the German Mauser for a little less. These elegant weapons are then sold to dealers in Agra, Mathura and nearby areas, where such weapons are in great demand.

The Munger made arms are, however, good enough for Delhi's criminals. Not long ago, a policeman was shot when trying to stop bag snatchers. This indicates that guns have made their way considerably down the criminal chain. In other words, a law-abiding citizen is likely to be more under threat from gun violence, than before. The question then arises - are such citizens then justified in seeking a licensed firearm themselves?

The National Association for Gun Rights in India (NAGRI), a nascent gun rights group, argues just that. Their position is that the right to bear arms is part of our fundamental rights in the Constitution. Rather reasonably, it is argued that law-abiding citizens have progressively been denied their right to self-defence, with the government tightening the licensing of guns. The present government quietly overhauled the archaic Arms Rules of 1962 with a new set of rules, that while encouraging private investment in the gun business, also tightened licensing procedure.


There is also a new nation-wide database on gun licenses, which will technically, allow easier tracking of licensed weapons. All of this is excellent work by the home ministry. The trouble is that the vast majority of the weapons seized in criminal hands are unlicensed and unmarked. Even the Chinese automatic weapons that are available in gun markets all over the country have their manufacture and batch numbers sawed off. The gun-rights lobby, therefore, has a point. The illicit trade will continue, while the legal owners are in a bind.

One way out is to regularise the gun markets and manufacturers of Bihar and elsewhere, and provide them with quality training and machines, allied with strict oversight and control. The obvious problem is that any credible oversight in the Indian system is usually made a mockery of within a few years or less.

Alternatively, these units could be trained to provide specific parts for the larger manufacturers. This requires a transition from the present "mom and pop" manufacturing process, to one that is far more streamlined and professional, even while building on resident skills in these towns that are virtually part of a bloodline.

'Make in India' need not involve only the big guns. The locals also need to be brought on board. Policy needs to go in this direction to fuse both the large manufacturing initiatives together with a policy on crime control. No one can dispute that urban India is becoming altogether a more violent place to live in.

I seriously cannot fathom the relevance of such hypothetical questions. Are citizens justified in seeking for a firearms licence? On what grounds can anyone seek justification for our basic/natural /fundamental rights?



pkaran
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:55 pm

Re: The need for Indian Citizens to be legally armed

Postby pkaran » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:22 pm

Hello Mundaire.

Many thanks for your valuable post!

I have one post entitled, How Licensed Guns help Control Crimes in India. Please review it and offer your views.

Thanks, pKaran



User avatar
russianshooter
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: The need for Indian Citizens to be legally armed

Postby russianshooter » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:33 am

Mundaire
pistols and revolvers can be manufactured by private producers? from what I read?

Added in 5 minutes 17 seconds:
"The present government quietly overhauled the archaic Arms Rules of 1962 with a new set of rules, that while encouraging private investment in the gun business, also tightened licensing procedure"
What about rifle,carbine?



pkaran
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:55 pm

India’s Broken Criminal System in desperate Need of Reform

Postby pkaran » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:15 pm

The following are excerpts of an article published by Shri Baijayant Jay Panda, MP, in the TOI dated 25 Oct 2017.

Excerpts:
- Statistics corroborate that our fight against crime is inadequate.
- India’s crime rate has been rising over the years. The decade 2005-2015 saw a 28% increase in cognizable offences.
- There is a vast shortage of police, judges, police check-posts, weapons, forensic science labs etc., to which interminable court delays, ineffective prosecutions and out-dated police service rules get added to further compound the situation.
- Against a UN norm of 222 police personnel per lakh of population, the actual strength is an abysmal 137.
- All the judges in the country together add up to just 18 per million population.
- India has a conviction rate of 47% compared to more than 85% in developed democracies like France, Japan, the US etc which exposes the gross inadequacy of our system.
- Several important reform measures like insulating the police from political interference have been put off because they simply do not pay off in time for the next elections.

Comments:
The policies of a government greatly influence the quality of the life of its citizens. A weak country shall be the direct result of weak governance. Unfortunately, in a country like ours, politicians who govern this country enter the fray only to make fast bucks. They pretend to be sane till they attain the thrones when their true colours emerge. They are not going to give you your rights until they have no other options but to give in, exactly the way the British had to leave this country, which unfortunately has been bequeathed by a system that delivers only rogue politicians, who ransack everything rightly belonging to the citizens. The only option left to us is to keep fighting for our rights.



pkaran
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:55 pm

Re: The need for Indian Citizens to be legally armed

Postby pkaran » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:55 pm

pkaran wrote:Hello Mundaire.

Many thanks for your valuable post!

I have one post entitled, How Licensed Guns help Control Crimes in India. Please review it and offer your views.

Thanks, pKaran


Hello Mundaire,

You requested me to share the Crime Statistics Data with you which unfortunately I could not as the file that I wanted to share with you is reported to be "too large". Please click on (or copy and paste) the link below to obtain the latest information (for 2016):

http://ncrb.nic.in/StatPublications/CII ... 202016.pdf

Regards,
Karan




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