This is one for Mehul : During a recent correspondence with Mack The Knife I mentioned that the optics on many old rifle scopes - such as Pecar, Nickel, etc - are superb but that their lens coatings just do not compare with modern coatings which allow for the transmission of much more light.
Mack The Knife asked whether it might be possible for the lenses in these old scopes to be re-coated with modern materials which would allow these scopes to be competitive with their modern contemporaries ?
So, is it possible to have old lenses re-coated - and at a sensible price ? Any idea if any companies offer this service, and if so, who ?
Lens Coatings on Rifle Scopes
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Grumpy
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mehulkamdar
Re: Lens Coatings on Rifle Scopes
Grumpy,
Most old scopes (and indeed all scopes made outside RUssia even today) have magnesium fluoride coatings that are vacuum deposited on the lenses. After this, the lenses are bonded to each other using one or another kind of bonding agent and then installed in a telescope. The cost of a single layer coating on a retail basis on one lens (two side) would be about Rs 50 to 75 in India, though for optimum glare and flare reduction, multiple coatings may be required. Technically, this could be done though it may work out more expensive than buying a new scope for the simple reason that you would pay for coatings as single jobs while a manufacturer would be mass producing the lenses.
Every optician in Europe and most of the bigger ones in the rest of the world have Leybold, Satis or Balzar vacuum coating units tucked away in their workshops and can recoat scope or binocular lenses if required. It is a simple process and even a high school student could be taught to perform it.
The one place where this would not be possible - and I am referring to it because Pecar are a formerly East German company - is when Russian lenses were used. The Russians developed a method of coating lenses by immersing them in a liquid instead of vacuum coating them, and, the process is unknown to the rest of the world even today. Some of the RUssian lenses used by the former East Germans are also made of a very high refractive index material called Fianit which is, again, soimething that the rest of the world has not been able to manufacture even though they have had access to samples for more than 40 years and, I am sure, have analysed it down to molecular level. I have visited the BC Rubin Optomechanical Engineering plant in Riazan where many of these coatings are performed and highly sophisticated scopes assembled, though they did not, of course, let me visit the workshops where this work is carried out. I had a pair of miniature "spy scopes" that they gave me as a souvenir and which are at my parents' place in India. One look thrugh the little one inch long and 1/3" dia scopes and you would realise that, even today, the West does not have an equivalent. There is also the possibility that some of the fine Aspheric Docter riflescopes were made with Russian lenses because, after the takeover of the Docter company by Zeiss, the old line has been retired and only low priced Zeiss scopes are sold under the Docter name these days.
The Nickel name has been brought back by a new company recently and they have been marketing their riflescopes only on a direct to client basis, not through dealers, at phenomenally high prices. I have not seen any of the new scopes myself and am hoping that I would be able to examine one sometime, though, in the USA, it is probably not going to happen. This is, after all, a country where people believe that Leupolds are the finest scope ever made.
I would not be surprised if, after examining one of the new Nickels, I find the optical clarity lacking compared to some of the older scopes.
Best wishes,
Mehul
Most old scopes (and indeed all scopes made outside RUssia even today) have magnesium fluoride coatings that are vacuum deposited on the lenses. After this, the lenses are bonded to each other using one or another kind of bonding agent and then installed in a telescope. The cost of a single layer coating on a retail basis on one lens (two side) would be about Rs 50 to 75 in India, though for optimum glare and flare reduction, multiple coatings may be required. Technically, this could be done though it may work out more expensive than buying a new scope for the simple reason that you would pay for coatings as single jobs while a manufacturer would be mass producing the lenses.
Every optician in Europe and most of the bigger ones in the rest of the world have Leybold, Satis or Balzar vacuum coating units tucked away in their workshops and can recoat scope or binocular lenses if required. It is a simple process and even a high school student could be taught to perform it.
The one place where this would not be possible - and I am referring to it because Pecar are a formerly East German company - is when Russian lenses were used. The Russians developed a method of coating lenses by immersing them in a liquid instead of vacuum coating them, and, the process is unknown to the rest of the world even today. Some of the RUssian lenses used by the former East Germans are also made of a very high refractive index material called Fianit which is, again, soimething that the rest of the world has not been able to manufacture even though they have had access to samples for more than 40 years and, I am sure, have analysed it down to molecular level. I have visited the BC Rubin Optomechanical Engineering plant in Riazan where many of these coatings are performed and highly sophisticated scopes assembled, though they did not, of course, let me visit the workshops where this work is carried out. I had a pair of miniature "spy scopes" that they gave me as a souvenir and which are at my parents' place in India. One look thrugh the little one inch long and 1/3" dia scopes and you would realise that, even today, the West does not have an equivalent. There is also the possibility that some of the fine Aspheric Docter riflescopes were made with Russian lenses because, after the takeover of the Docter company by Zeiss, the old line has been retired and only low priced Zeiss scopes are sold under the Docter name these days.
The Nickel name has been brought back by a new company recently and they have been marketing their riflescopes only on a direct to client basis, not through dealers, at phenomenally high prices. I have not seen any of the new scopes myself and am hoping that I would be able to examine one sometime, though, in the USA, it is probably not going to happen. This is, after all, a country where people believe that Leupolds are the finest scope ever made.
I would not be surprised if, after examining one of the new Nickels, I find the optical clarity lacking compared to some of the older scopes.Best wishes,
Mehul
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Grumpy
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Re: Lens Coatings on Rifle Scopes
Thanks for all the information Mehul.
The problem with spectacle lens coatings is that they do not maximise the light gathering properties of the lenses.....nor are they as technologically complicated being - as you say - primarily a single coating.
Some of the new Bushnell scopes ( for example ) have a coating that allows for remarkable transmission of light.....unfortunately the lens quality does not compare with those from certain German manufacturers - or Czech manufacturers in the case of Meopta.
It hadn`t occurred to me that Pecar were for many years an East German company although it should have been obvious as they are based in Berlin. They are now a very small company but still making superb rifle scopes. Probably because of their small size they are the only manufacturer that advertises that they will refurbish, repair and re-gas their old models. Prior to WWII Pecar were probably THE rifle scope manufacturers.
Did you know that they make a 4x21 scope especially for the Lee Enfield ? Similar to the original sniper scope but using the latest technology.
I ought to get in touch with Pecar to ask how their current lens coatings compare with the rest of the market .... and if they can re-coat the lenses in their older models.
The take-over of Docter by Zeiss hasn`t been good news at all especially as it has meant the demise of the Docter 8x56 Aspheric - quite possibly the best scope ever made. The current Docter range is hardly inexpensive though......but I suspect that you`re not referring to the retail price.
Happily, because of the industrial work that Meopta do - manufacturing photograpic enlargers and the like - they have been able to withstand the demise of communism and still make very fine rifle scopes. Probably the best value for money around as far as `quality` scopes are concerned.
I remember you telling me about the Russian Fianit lens material - I believe that you said that the glass was made from a particular type of sand that came from around the Black Sea. The American company ATN used to advertse that they used Russian Black Sea sand to manufacture their lenses however that isn`t the same as lenses being made of Fianit.
Good scopes ATN......I`d buy one if it wasn`t for the reticle which I really dislike.
The advanced lens coatings available nowadays mean that many manufacturers are using less than optimum objective lens sizes - obviously as a means to reduce costs. A shame as the combination of those coatings combined with the optimum 1:7 ratio - magnification to objective lens diameter - would enable superb light transmission.....even with less than superb lens quality. Of course cheap, large diameter lenses are very prone to distortions.
I`ve heard about the new Nickels - probably from you thinking about it ! - but have yet to see one or even a review of one.
The problem with spectacle lens coatings is that they do not maximise the light gathering properties of the lenses.....nor are they as technologically complicated being - as you say - primarily a single coating.
Some of the new Bushnell scopes ( for example ) have a coating that allows for remarkable transmission of light.....unfortunately the lens quality does not compare with those from certain German manufacturers - or Czech manufacturers in the case of Meopta.
It hadn`t occurred to me that Pecar were for many years an East German company although it should have been obvious as they are based in Berlin. They are now a very small company but still making superb rifle scopes. Probably because of their small size they are the only manufacturer that advertises that they will refurbish, repair and re-gas their old models. Prior to WWII Pecar were probably THE rifle scope manufacturers.
Did you know that they make a 4x21 scope especially for the Lee Enfield ? Similar to the original sniper scope but using the latest technology.
I ought to get in touch with Pecar to ask how their current lens coatings compare with the rest of the market .... and if they can re-coat the lenses in their older models.
The take-over of Docter by Zeiss hasn`t been good news at all especially as it has meant the demise of the Docter 8x56 Aspheric - quite possibly the best scope ever made. The current Docter range is hardly inexpensive though......but I suspect that you`re not referring to the retail price.
Happily, because of the industrial work that Meopta do - manufacturing photograpic enlargers and the like - they have been able to withstand the demise of communism and still make very fine rifle scopes. Probably the best value for money around as far as `quality` scopes are concerned.
I remember you telling me about the Russian Fianit lens material - I believe that you said that the glass was made from a particular type of sand that came from around the Black Sea. The American company ATN used to advertse that they used Russian Black Sea sand to manufacture their lenses however that isn`t the same as lenses being made of Fianit.
Good scopes ATN......I`d buy one if it wasn`t for the reticle which I really dislike.
The advanced lens coatings available nowadays mean that many manufacturers are using less than optimum objective lens sizes - obviously as a means to reduce costs. A shame as the combination of those coatings combined with the optimum 1:7 ratio - magnification to objective lens diameter - would enable superb light transmission.....even with less than superb lens quality. Of course cheap, large diameter lenses are very prone to distortions.
I`ve heard about the new Nickels - probably from you thinking about it ! - but have yet to see one or even a review of one.
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mehulkamdar
Re: Lens Coatings on Rifle Scopes
Grumpy,
For a long time my father's company were the Indian agents for Metro Optical Company as Meopta were called in the Cold War years. However, we sold only their optical lenses, rough blanks and flint buttons for manufacturing bifocals, not their scopes and binoculars. Their quality is definitely superior to Japanese and American products at a reasonable price but not as good as the best German or RUssian products from those years.
Fianit is a very interesting product - the closest that a synthetic lens material has come to the refractive index of diamond at 2.2. The west has made sapphire glass which is slightly less but it is vastly heavier and, being corumdum, is hard so that grinding it is not at all easy. Fianit can be ground on any manual lens surfacing machine with the same dies that are used to grind mineral glass lenses. The closest that a Western company ahs come to this is Corning France wth a glass material that has a RI of 1.9 and which has also recently been matched by Nikon and Pentax but Corning got the technology to make this when they bought a Polish plant immediately after the Iron Curtain fell.
Thanks for giving me the very good news that Pecar survive as an independent company - they did a wise thing unlike Docter who allowed themselves to be bought up by Zeiss and made a complete mess of the company's product quality and reputation in the process. These days they manufacture mainly reflectors for automobile headlamps, a sad thing considering the fine tradition for manufacturing scopes that the company was known for for almost 100 years. Yes, the Aspheric 8x56 DOcters are missed by people who know what a fantastic product they were and used ones go for very high prices on the various auction sites.
Cheers!
Mehul
For a long time my father's company were the Indian agents for Metro Optical Company as Meopta were called in the Cold War years. However, we sold only their optical lenses, rough blanks and flint buttons for manufacturing bifocals, not their scopes and binoculars. Their quality is definitely superior to Japanese and American products at a reasonable price but not as good as the best German or RUssian products from those years.
Fianit is a very interesting product - the closest that a synthetic lens material has come to the refractive index of diamond at 2.2. The west has made sapphire glass which is slightly less but it is vastly heavier and, being corumdum, is hard so that grinding it is not at all easy. Fianit can be ground on any manual lens surfacing machine with the same dies that are used to grind mineral glass lenses. The closest that a Western company ahs come to this is Corning France wth a glass material that has a RI of 1.9 and which has also recently been matched by Nikon and Pentax but Corning got the technology to make this when they bought a Polish plant immediately after the Iron Curtain fell.
Thanks for giving me the very good news that Pecar survive as an independent company - they did a wise thing unlike Docter who allowed themselves to be bought up by Zeiss and made a complete mess of the company's product quality and reputation in the process. These days they manufacture mainly reflectors for automobile headlamps, a sad thing considering the fine tradition for manufacturing scopes that the company was known for for almost 100 years. Yes, the Aspheric 8x56 DOcters are missed by people who know what a fantastic product they were and used ones go for very high prices on the various auction sites.
Cheers!
Mehul
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Mack The Knife
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Mehul,
Thanks a lot for the input.
In another e-mail to Grumpy, I asked him if re-polishing would be required before the new coatings were administered and he agrees with this. What would be the approximate cost of re-polishing a lens. The scopes sites would have us believe that this is a very expensive process. Is this true?
Grumpy, if you wish to change the reticle on an ATN, couldn't a company like Premier Reticles do the job? Or are they frightfully expensive?
Mack The Knife
Thanks a lot for the input.
In another e-mail to Grumpy, I asked him if re-polishing would be required before the new coatings were administered and he agrees with this. What would be the approximate cost of re-polishing a lens. The scopes sites would have us believe that this is a very expensive process. Is this true?
Grumpy, if you wish to change the reticle on an ATN, couldn't a company like Premier Reticles do the job? Or are they frightfully expensive?
Mack The Knife
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mehulkamdar
Re: Lens Coatings on Rifle Scopes
Mack The Knife,
You would need to strip the original coating from the lens - if the lens is of a curvature that is available with an optician, then the cost would be hardly Rs 10 or 15 - labour cost only as no material would be used. If, however, it was a curvature that is not commonly used, then a die would need to be cut for the surfacing machine and that would cost approximately Rs 50 or so. These days my father is retired with very poor health but he used to do this kind of thing especially for large diameter projector lenses and for telescope lenses for some of the observatories in Tamilnadu. I think he gave most of this business to the gentleman I told you about in the earlier post about telescopes, Mr Balaji, though Optomech do not have a vacuum coating unit. They get their coatings done in Bangalore by Hind Hi Vac in Peenya. The process is not a complicated or difficult one - just laborious and time consuming.
The cost, if you do this yourself, may exceed the price of buying a new scope as it would be a custom job vis a vis a production one. It might make sense to do this on a Pecar which is a very valuable scope indeed, but not on a low priced scope that could be replaced with something from the US for a very reasonable price.
If Mark and I do visit India in Jan, I would be happy to bring along a scope for you if you want me to, and mail it to you from Mumbai. The best prices I have seen in the US are from Scopes N More. That said, I could get you waht you want from any company that you might want to deal with over here.
Cheers!
Mehul
You would need to strip the original coating from the lens - if the lens is of a curvature that is available with an optician, then the cost would be hardly Rs 10 or 15 - labour cost only as no material would be used. If, however, it was a curvature that is not commonly used, then a die would need to be cut for the surfacing machine and that would cost approximately Rs 50 or so. These days my father is retired with very poor health but he used to do this kind of thing especially for large diameter projector lenses and for telescope lenses for some of the observatories in Tamilnadu. I think he gave most of this business to the gentleman I told you about in the earlier post about telescopes, Mr Balaji, though Optomech do not have a vacuum coating unit. They get their coatings done in Bangalore by Hind Hi Vac in Peenya. The process is not a complicated or difficult one - just laborious and time consuming.
The cost, if you do this yourself, may exceed the price of buying a new scope as it would be a custom job vis a vis a production one. It might make sense to do this on a Pecar which is a very valuable scope indeed, but not on a low priced scope that could be replaced with something from the US for a very reasonable price.
If Mark and I do visit India in Jan, I would be happy to bring along a scope for you if you want me to, and mail it to you from Mumbai. The best prices I have seen in the US are from Scopes N More. That said, I could get you waht you want from any company that you might want to deal with over here.
Cheers!
Mehul
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Mack The Knife
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Hi Mehul,
It is actually Grumpy who is thinking about the possibilites.
Since it's a labour intensive process it would cost a bomb in Europe.
Grumpy, if you want I could do the needful at my end.
Thanks for the offer, Mehul. If I don't get one by then, I may take you up on the offer. Let me know a month before departure. So Bangalore is definitely not on the cards then?
Mack The Knife
It is actually Grumpy who is thinking about the possibilites.
Since it's a labour intensive process it would cost a bomb in Europe.
Grumpy, if you want I could do the needful at my end.
Thanks for the offer, Mehul. If I don't get one by then, I may take you up on the offer. Let me know a month before departure. So Bangalore is definitely not on the cards then?
Mack The Knife
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Grumpy
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Re: Lens Coatings on Rifle Scopes
Thanks for the additional input Mehul.....although it`s beginning - as I suspected - to look like re-coating lenses is economically unviable..
Dodger, the ATN scopes are really good quality and well priced. Unfortunately the reticles are completely illuminated and are a variation on the military range finding type and incorporate a bullet drop cam for various popular calibres. The view through the scopes is very `busy` and I find them extremely distracting - I always make sure that I am aware of the particular trajectory of the ammunition I use and don`t need, and really don`t like all the `frills`. Unfortunately the reticles aren`t removable. A shame because otherwise I very much like the scopes.
ATN supply various scopes - including night vision types - to the US military so the military type reticles are hardly surprising. Obviously they hold appeal to many people but not to minimalists like myself.
Pecar are not only alive and well but producing a wide range of scopes. Not only are the reticles removable in many ( all ? ) of their scopes but they will even make custom reticles to customers designs. One of the advantages of being a small company.
Dodger, the ATN scopes are really good quality and well priced. Unfortunately the reticles are completely illuminated and are a variation on the military range finding type and incorporate a bullet drop cam for various popular calibres. The view through the scopes is very `busy` and I find them extremely distracting - I always make sure that I am aware of the particular trajectory of the ammunition I use and don`t need, and really don`t like all the `frills`. Unfortunately the reticles aren`t removable. A shame because otherwise I very much like the scopes.
ATN supply various scopes - including night vision types - to the US military so the military type reticles are hardly surprising. Obviously they hold appeal to many people but not to minimalists like myself.
Pecar are not only alive and well but producing a wide range of scopes. Not only are the reticles removable in many ( all ? ) of their scopes but they will even make custom reticles to customers designs. One of the advantages of being a small company.
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Mack The Knife
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Re: Lens Coatings on Rifle Scopes
Hi Grumpy,
Like you, I too dislike cluttered reticles to the extent that I got rid of the mildot reticled scopes even though one cannot afford to be choosy here.
My favourite reticle would be a German No.4 with a red dot at the centre.
Mack The Knife
Like you, I too dislike cluttered reticles to the extent that I got rid of the mildot reticled scopes even though one cannot afford to be choosy here.
My favourite reticle would be a German No.4 with a red dot at the centre.
Mack The Knife
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Grumpy
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Re: Lens Coatings on Rifle Scopes
Absolutely ! A 4A in fact in a non-illuminated reticle.
Look at these for absolutely the best Illuminated reticles (In my opinion) Meoptas` 4C
http://www.meopta.com/data/krize/velke/4c.jpg
and Debens Hawke Nite-Eye Dot IR
http://www.deben.com/optics/riflescopes ... /dotir.htm
Both have variable power dots.
The former is used in the Meopta Artemis 2100 7x50 ( a lovely scope ) and the latter in my favourite `budget` scopes, The Hawke Nite-Eye Dot IR 6x44 and 3.5-10x50.
Look at these for absolutely the best Illuminated reticles (In my opinion) Meoptas` 4C
http://www.meopta.com/data/krize/velke/4c.jpg
and Debens Hawke Nite-Eye Dot IR
http://www.deben.com/optics/riflescopes ... /dotir.htm
Both have variable power dots.
The former is used in the Meopta Artemis 2100 7x50 ( a lovely scope ) and the latter in my favourite `budget` scopes, The Hawke Nite-Eye Dot IR 6x44 and 3.5-10x50.
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Mack The Knife
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Re: Lens Coatings on Rifle Scopes
A wee bit too close for me. I prefer something as seen on the last image link here...Look at these for absolutely the best Illuminated reticles (In my opinion) Meoptas` 4C
http://www.meopta.com/data/krize/velke/4c.jpg
http://www.indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?t=20
That's more like it.Debens Hawke Nite-Eye Dot IR
http://www.deben.com/optics/riflescopes ... /dotir.htm
I can understand people not liking illuminated reticles because of the flare but wouldn't you like to have a small illuminated dot or just a small part of the finer posts illuminated?
Mack The Knife
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Grumpy
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Re: Lens Coatings on Rifle Scopes
The dot in both of the scopes is very small - you have to remember that the illustrations are just that and not views through the scope. There`s no problem with flare in either of the scopes because the intensity of the dot is variable - and I use both at the two lowest settings only. The distance between the the horizontal posts equates to 30" at one hundred yards - at 7x power for the Meopta ( fixed magnification ) and at 4x power with the Hawkes.
Some of the Hawkes - the Nite-Eye 30/30IR models - are available with an illuminated + in the reticle instead of the dot
http://www.deben.com/optics/riflescopes ... 030cir.htm
or with a fully illuminated illuminated reticle
http://www.deben.com/optics/riflescopes ... 3030ir.htm
The former I find just about tolerable ( but I don`t like it ) and the latter totally intolerable.
I don`t need the top half of the vertical post either.....but find I miss it when it`s not there.
The Hawke Nite-Eye Dot IR 6x44 is what I`m going to put on the Finn Classic by the way.
Some of the Hawkes - the Nite-Eye 30/30IR models - are available with an illuminated + in the reticle instead of the dot
http://www.deben.com/optics/riflescopes ... 030cir.htm
or with a fully illuminated illuminated reticle
http://www.deben.com/optics/riflescopes ... 3030ir.htm
The former I find just about tolerable ( but I don`t like it ) and the latter totally intolerable.
I don`t need the top half of the vertical post either.....but find I miss it when it`s not there.
The Hawke Nite-Eye Dot IR 6x44 is what I`m going to put on the Finn Classic by the way.