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Self Defence Ammo Advise for 12 Bore

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jsvirk
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Self Defence Ammo Advise for 12 Bore

Postby jsvirk » Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:29 pm

Hi Everyone

I seek advise from you all on the best ammo to be bought for my 12 bore double barrel gun for home defense. I don't intend to purchase ammo which only makes sound but is effective in case i ever need to use it in inflicting damage to the other party.

I'll be obliged if you can be specific in which brand is recommended alongwith other specific details as i am new to this.

Thanks



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goodboy_mentor
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Re: Self Defence Ammo Advise for 12 Bore

Postby goodboy_mentor » Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:16 pm

Depending upon distance you want to hit the target, cartridge firing rifled slug would hit the longest. These can penetrate and go through wooden doors, windows or ricochet off from walls like rifle bullet. So you will have to be very careful while firing them. Next would be the one with single circular ball. The gun dealers used to call it ball cartridge. I do not know if they are available these days because rifled slugs provide better accuracy and range. Next would be LG and SG cartridges but they are banned. So no question about buying them. Then would be cartridge numbered No. 1. More you go for higher numbers the shot size will be getting smaller and smaller. It means shot will have less range and spread more. Personally I would prefer rifled slugs over other shot sizes since LG and SG are banned. I am sure other members more experienced and knowledgeable about this matter will be able to tell more and correct me if I am wrong.


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mundaire
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Re: Self Defence Ammo Advise for 12 Bore

Postby mundaire » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:56 am

Buckshot is best for home defence, but as GBM has pointed out, it is banned in India.

Birdshot would work in a pinch, especially the smaller numbers, but is less than ideal.

Slugs/ balls have their own problems in confined spaces, as pointed out by GBM.


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Vikram
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Re: Self Defence Ammo Advise for 12 Bore

Postby Vikram » Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:52 pm

GBM and Mundaire make good sense.

Shaktiman makes ball/slug cartridges. Not rifled/brennekke style cartridges. They work but very limited range. Again, you will not be shooting at long ranges as that in most cases defeats the logic of self-defence.

I would check chamber length before using Shaktiman or any other cartridges. Also, slugs are ideally not shot through full choke. But, if life is in question, I would not bother about opening up the choke or slightly damaging the barrel. I can always buy a new gun. Not a new life.

In close quarters No.1 bird shot will do.One could argue about it, but no one would like to get hit by one.

To emphasise, L.G is banned. And if one is caught using those cartridges and the said usage results in the death even in a self-defence situation, penalties are stiff.

Best-
Vikram


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Re: Self Defence Ammo Advise for 12 Bore

Postby GNV » Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:03 pm

Are the LG cartridges really banned or simply no longer manufactured in india ? I had seen before many people who use Brass reloadable 12 Bore cartridges to load their own buck shot. I had also seen round lead balls of various diameters suitable for this purpose freely available in the old Gun Shops in Mojanjahi Market in Hyderabad few years ago. When actually were the LG cartridges banned?

Regards,
GNV

Added in 3 minutes 49 seconds:
Aren't cartridges loaded with 4.5 mm steel B.B available leagally ?

GNV



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Vikram
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Re: Self Defence Ammo Advise for 12 Bore

Postby Vikram » Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:19 pm

GNV wrote:Are the LG cartridges really banned or simply no longer manufactured in india ? I had seen before many people who use Brass reloadable 12 Bore cartridges to load their own buck shot. I had also seen round lead balls of various diameters suitable for this purpose freely available in the old Gun Shops in Mojanjahi Market in Hyderabad few years ago. When actually were the LG cartridges banned?

Regards,
GNV

Added in 3 minutes 49 seconds:
Aren't cartridges loaded with 4.5 mm steel B.B available leagally ?

GNV


Banned. The details can be found on this thread. People reloading with buckshot are violating law.

viewtopic.php?t=2358


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Re: Self Defence Ammo Advise for 12 Bore

Postby goodboy_mentor » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:32 pm

mundaire wrote:Buckshot is best for home defence
Now I understand why LG and SG cartridges were banned by government in 1980! Government did not want people to possess effective cartridges for home defense? Government wanted the criminals to have upper hand while they attack the homes of people? May be or may not be but surely something was cooking. Then in 1983 three firearm limit was imposed and then the legal import of firearms was also banned. Was it some silent continuous conspiracy was at work? Or mere coincidence or unusual coincidence? Is the present government any different from that government in this matter? I do not have answer, apply your mind, analyze the facts and reach your own conclusions.


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Re: Self Defence Ammo Advise for 12 Bore

Postby mundaire » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:00 pm

IIRC the ban on buckshot was further to intense lobbying by animal rights groups, who claimed that buckshot was being used for hunting. Another case of the tail wagging the dog...


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Re: Self Defence Ammo Advise for 12 Bore

Postby jsvirk » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:06 pm

Thank you all for your advise...

Is Sellier & Bellot... 12 * 70.... 4.5mm right for home defense for medium range... or would you recommend something else...



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Re: Self Defence Ammo Advise for 12 Bore

Postby goodboy_mentor » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:20 pm

jsvirk wrote:or would you recommend something else...
As already mentioned rifled slug is the best among the available options, provided you are careful about who is behind the target. Even if the target is wearing an effective body armor, it would give a really dangerous and stunning blow which may be fatal.

About the effectiveness of 4.5 mm shot, there are many variables like the distance, the choke type of your gun, if target is wearing layers of thick winter clothing or body armor etc. Best would be if you go to the range and fire the 4.5 mm shot from your gun and see how much it spreads and how much it penetrates at your required distance. It would give you some rough idea. If anyone has tried this kind of experiment they would also be able to give their opinions.


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Re: Self Defence Ammo Advise for 12 Bore

Postby mundaire » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:02 pm

Unless I am mistaken, at really short ranges (the kind you would encounter indoors) birdshot would effectively behave like a slug

jsvirk wrote:Thank you all for your advise...

Is Sellier & Bellot... 12 * 70.... 4.5mm right for home defense for medium range... or would you recommend something else...


4.5mm would be BB size birdshot, larger than No. 1, so I'd say better - BUT - you need to define what YOU term as medium range. Don't forget, even slugs are only good for 150 feet or so (MAX), therefore short/ medium range has very different connotations when talking about shotguns. Since we were talking about home defence, my assumption was 30 feet or less would be the maximum engagement range.

Cheers!
Abhijeet


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Re: Self Defence Ammo Advise for 12 Bore

Postby Vineet » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:52 pm

Shaktiman 4.8 is quite good self defense cartridge keeping in mind that legally we can not own cartridges having pellets larger than 5 mm and imported cartridges are difficult to come by.

Slug is not recommended for self/home defence because the main advantage of a shotgun over other weapons is that it can fire multiple projectiles which increases your chances to hit the target with one shot. If you use a slug in self defence then you are giving away this benefit. Also keep in mind that although a shotgun firing multiple projectiles will produce a spread much larger than a solid projectile, it does not preclude the need to aim.

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goodboy_mentor
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Re: Self Defence Ammo Advise for 12 Bore

Postby goodboy_mentor » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:12 pm

Yes everyone is giving very good and perfectly valid suggestions from different angles and perspectives. During winters in Northern India many people tend to wear multiple layers of course, thick winter clothing including blankets especially at night. Has any one tried testing how well does shot sizes below 5 mm are able to penetrate through multiple layers of course thick winter clothing at various distances? For example tested by firing at a thick bundle of rags etc.


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jsvirk
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Re: Self Defence Ammo Advise for 12 Bore

Postby jsvirk » Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:00 pm

what is d maximum limit of cartridges that i can possess at one time?



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Re: Self Defence Ammo Advise for 12 Bore

Postby dsingh » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:16 pm

Under Indian law best option is BB and 4.8 also Astram and shaktiman in similar form r good for self defence .Another no 1 special and no 1 magma in ordinance along with Astram of ordinance r good options.Slug mirage of Italy and R.C 7.5 r good for home defence.If u r good shot shatiman single ball with fragmentation r good but must be very careful because their destructive power.




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