.308 winchester

Ammunition, accessories and shooting-related gear & equipment - including Optics and Sights.
Post Reply
User avatar
Ramandeep
Almost at nirvana
Almost at nirvana
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 10:54 pm
Location: Raipur (Chattisgarh)

.308 winchester

Post by Ramandeep » Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:35 pm

Hi my fellow IFGians, I would like to know what is the availability status of .308 winchester ammo in India and are there few or large number of rifles in that particular bore in India. Also I would like to know is .308 a better ammo in terms of hunting than a .30-06 ammo.

Regards

Raman
1 shot 1 kill!

For Advertising mail webmaster
User avatar
farook
Shooting true
Shooting true
Posts: 662
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:37 pm

Re: .308 winchester

Post by farook » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:38 pm

Ramandeep wrote:Hi my fellow IFGians, I would like to know what is the availability status of .308 winchester ammo in India and are there few or large number of rifles in that particular bore in India. Also I would like to know is .308 a better ammo in terms of hunting than a .30-06 ammo.

Regards

Raman
223 and 308 are prohibited bores for civilians. 30.06 is a close alternative though not as aerodynamic as its brother the 308. There is a compete ban on hunting in India...
Nothing has shaped the history more than a Gun

User avatar
BowMan
One of Us (Nirvana)
One of Us (Nirvana)
Posts: 435
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:09 pm

Re: .308 winchester

Post by BowMan » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:49 pm

+1 for above

Amit357
One of Us (Nirvana)
One of Us (Nirvana)
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:17 pm
Location: Chandigarh

Re: .308 winchester

Post by Amit357 » Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:21 pm

BowMan wrote:+1 for above
ROTFL ROTFL ROTFL , :deadhorse: :agree:

User avatar
timmy
Old Timer
Old Timer
Posts: 2053
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:03 am
Location: home on the range

Re: .308 winchester

Post by timmy » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:41 am

farook wrote:
Ramandeep wrote:Hi my fellow IFGians, I would like to know what is the availability status of .308 winchester ammo in India and are there few or large number of rifles in that particular bore in India. Also I would like to know is .308 a better ammo in terms of hunting than a .30-06 ammo.

Regards

Raman
223 and 308 are prohibited bores for civilians. 30.06 is a close alternative though not as aerodynamic as its brother the 308. There is a compete ban on hunting in India...
Not as aerodynamic? What does this mean? This statement makes no sense whatsoever, as both 30-06 and 308 use the very same bullets.

Ramandeep, here are the facts, in a nutshell:

The US Army developed the 30-06 from the 30-03, which was the cartridge designed for the 1903 Springfield. Like the 03 Springfield rifle itself, which was copied (and somewhat poorly copied, by the way) from the German Mauser M98 rifle, the 30-06 cartridge was copied from the 7.92x57 "Mauser" cartridge (often called the 8x57). I say "Mauser," because Mauser didn't originally design this round. It was originally designed by a German Military commission for the German 1888 Commission rifle, the M98's predecessor in German Military service.

The "Mauser" part of the 7.92x57''s development came along in 1905, when Mauser developed the "S" or spitzer bullet. Previously, military bullets had a blunt, round nose, but the spitzer bullet, with its sharp pointed shape, was more aerodynamic and offered better long range performance.

Image

The Americans developed the Springfield rifle in response to the experience they had, facing the Spanish troops in Cuba during the Spanish American War. The Spanish, armed with 1893 Mausers in 7x57, were able to support more concentrated fire with their stripper clip loading Mausers than the Americans could, armed with their Krag Jorgensen rifles. This experience was similar to what the British experienced when fighting the Boers in South Africa, armed with the same weapon, while the British were using their Lee rifles in 303. The British were able to add a bridge to the Lee action, which permitted their rifle to be loaded from stripper clips, but the odd Krag Jorgensen was not so amenable to being modified to use stripper or charger clips.

The US chose to design a new bolt action rifle that corrected this shortcoming, and also took the opportunity to adopt a new cartridge at the same time that was rimless, which offered advantages for use in automatic weapons. This became the 30-03 Springfield, and it had a round nosed 220 grain bullet, like the Krag had used.

Upon noticing the advantages that the spitzer bullet conferred, the Americans, like the French, British, and Russians, moved to adopt the spitzer design from the Germans, as well. Just as the Germans had modified their original 8x57 design, so also did the Americans, but the Americans retained the same .300 bore/.308 groove barrel dimensions as the 30-03 and the original Krag.

I am skipping over a host of related points and issues here for the sake of brevity, but the story picks up after WW2:

The Americans noted that the 8x57 in German service provided all of the performance that the 30-06 did, but with a shorter cartridge. This was not such an issue for bolt action weapons, but it was a large issue for automatic weapons, like machine guns. A shorter cartridge with the same performance allowed a machine gun that was shorter and lighter, a big consideration when troops have to carry the thing or when it must be mounted in an aircraft, where every ounce counts. So the Americans began work on a shorter cartridge that retained the same .300/.308 bore/groove diameter bullets, that would not be inferior to the 30-06 in battlefield performance. This was achieved by using the then-new "ball powder" introduced by Olin (the parent company of Winchester). For the military, this new round, the 7.62x51mm, was based on a cartridge case that had the same rim diameter, but was significantly shorter than the 30-06.

Winchester offered almost exactly the same cartridge as the military 7.62x51mm as the 308 Winchester, and later offered a 6mm version, the 243, and a larger version, the 358, based on the same case. Subsequently, there is a 7mm version based on the case called the 7mm-08.

When comparing the 308 to the 30-06 in sporting use, as opposed to military use, the differences are slight. 308 chambered rifles are generally available in a shorter action, which makes for a lighter and handier rifle, than the 30-06 allows. As far as performance, the 308, with less capacity than the 30-06, will drive bullets to approximately the same velocity from 150 gr and lighter, but when comparing bullet weights of 165 gr and above, the 30-06 begins to show real advantages.

So the choice between the two would be based on these two criteria, roughly speaking:

1. How much does the shooter need the weight reduction that the 308 allows over the 30-06?
2. How much does the shooter need the extra performance in bullet weights above 150 gr?

There are other considerations for specialized situations. For instance, it is said that the 308 is inherently more accurate than the 30-06, but this difference would apply to a specialty shooter, not to the sportsman afield.

You can note the difference between these rounds in this picture:

Image

The second round from the left is the 30-06, and to the right of it is the 8x57. The round on the far right is the 308. This illustrates the relative lengths of these rounds very well.

The idea that the 308 is more aerodynamic than the 30-06 is wrong, because they shoot the same bullets. The only way that aerodynamics would play a role is if you are throwing the whole cartridge at something!

To the OP's original question, I can't answer to the availability issue, but I would have a hard time believing that most any cartridge is more available than 30-06. However, I believe that 308 is prohibited bore in India, where the 30-06 is not. Regarding the other question as to "better ammo" for hunting, the question would go back to my earlier observation: If a light gun for hunting non-dangerous game is called for, then the 308 is your choice. If you need the performance of heavier bullets and rifle weight is not so important, then the 30-06 is your choice. It all depends on the kind of hunting you have in mind.

That said, there are other factors that enter into a choice of a rifle and of a cartridge. To most gun aficionados, what you like is very important. Some folks love the 30-06 and feel the 308 is a "usurper," while others like the advantages of the 308. I suspect that, in most cases, what one likes is probably the most important factor in choosing between the 30-06 and the 308. However, in India, as you are dealing with a prohibited bore vs a non-prohibited bore, I suspect you will tend toward the 30-06 because it is less hassle to obtain both rifle and ammunition.
“The principle of self defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi.” - Martin Luther King, Jr.

User avatar
Vikram
We post a lot
We post a lot
Posts: 4661
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:14 am
Location: Tbilisi,Georgia

Re: .308 winchester

Post by Vikram » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:56 am

Timmy,

An excellent little treatise on the cartridge. A most educative primer for a novice. Thank you for posting it.

Best-
Vikram
It ain’t over ’til it’s over! "Rocky,Rocky,Rocky....."

User avatar
timmy
Old Timer
Old Timer
Posts: 2053
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:03 am
Location: home on the range

Re: .308 winchester

Post by timmy » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:58 am

Thanks, Vikram. The whole subject deserves better, as there is so much in the history of arms development associated with it. However, this will hopefully do for the casual question of the OP.
“The principle of self defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi.” - Martin Luther King, Jr.

TwoRivers
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 1526
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:11 pm
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska

Re: .308 winchester

Post by TwoRivers » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:16 am

farook wrote:]

223 and 308 are prohibited bores for civilians. 30.06 is a close alternative though not as aerodynamic as its brother the 308. There is a compete ban on hunting in India...
"..., not as aerodynamic as its brother the 308..." An aerodynamic cartridge? What exactly do you mean by that?

TwoRivers
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 1526
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:11 pm
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska

Re: .308 winchester

Post by TwoRivers » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:49 am

[quote="timmy"]
The "Mauser" part of the 7.92x57''s development came along in 1905, when Mauser developed the "S" or spitzer bullet. Previously, military bullets had a blunt, round nose, but the spitzer bullet, with its sharp pointed shape, was more aerodynamic and offered better long range performance.

Not. The "Patrone S" was not a Mauser development. The French were the first to develop and adopt a pointed, and boat-tailed, bullet, the all gilding metal (hi-copper brass) "Balle D" in 1898. The "balle D' load gave 2300 fps, versus the previous bullet's 2030 fps. This prompted the Germans to develop a similar bullet. During experiments it was found that an even lighter bullet at higher velocity and weighing only 10 gm/154 gr.had even more advantage up to 800 meters. It was adopted in 1903. Announcement of the adoption of the new bullet was not made until 1905, after all M98 rifles had the chamber neck re-cut and had been re-sighted.

User avatar
timmy
Old Timer
Old Timer
Posts: 2053
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:03 am
Location: home on the range

Re: .308 winchester

Post by timmy » Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:03 am

I am sorry, you are right. The French spitzer bullet did precede the German one on the dates you mentioned.
“The principle of self defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi.” - Martin Luther King, Jr.

User avatar
Baljit
Shooting true
Shooting true
Posts: 873
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:27 am
Location: Kelowna , BC . Canada

Re: .308 winchester

Post by Baljit » Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:54 am

farook wrote: 30.06 is a close alternative though not as aerodynamic as its brother the 308.

I like to know as well , what did you mean by this?



Baljit

User avatar
Ramandeep
Almost at nirvana
Almost at nirvana
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 10:54 pm
Location: Raipur (Chattisgarh)

Re: .308 winchester

Post by Ramandeep » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:55 pm

farook wrote:
Ramandeep wrote:Hi my fellow IFGians, I would like to know what is the availability status of .308 winchester ammo in India and are there few or large number of rifles in that particular bore in India. Also I would like to know is .308 a better ammo in terms of hunting than a .30-06 ammo.

Regards

Raman
223 and 308 are prohibited bores for civilians. 30.06 is a close alternative though not as aerodynamic as its brother the 308. There is a compete ban on hunting in India...
I didn't know that.308 falls into PB category. Ofcourse i know there is a complete ban on hunting in "India" when I mentioned hunting I had africa in mind rather than India.
1 shot 1 kill!

User avatar
Ramandeep
Almost at nirvana
Almost at nirvana
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 10:54 pm
Location: Raipur (Chattisgarh)

Re: .308 winchester

Post by Ramandeep » Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:02 pm

timmy wrote:
farook wrote:
Ramandeep wrote:Hi my fellow IFGians, I would like to know what is the availability status of .308 winchester ammo in India and are there few or large number of rifles in that particular bore in India. Also I would like to know is .308 a better ammo in terms of hunting than a .30-06 ammo.

Regards

Raman
223 and 308 are prohibited bores for civilians. 30.06 is a close alternative though not as aerodynamic as its brother the 308. There is a compete ban on hunting in India...
Not as aerodynamic? What does this mean? This statement makes no sense whatsoever, as both 30-06 and 308 use the very same bullets.

Ramandeep, here are the facts, in a nutshell:

The US Army developed the 30-06 from the 30-03, which was the cartridge designed for the 1903 Springfield. Like the 03 Springfield rifle itself, which was copied (and somewhat poorly copied, by the way) from the German Mauser M98 rifle, the 30-06 cartridge was copied from the 7.92x57 "Mauser" cartridge (often called the 8x57). I say "Mauser," because Mauser didn't originally design this round. It was originally designed by a German Military commission for the German 1888 Commission rifle, the M98's predecessor in German Military service.

The "Mauser" part of the 7.92x57''s development came along in 1905, when Mauser developed the "S" or spitzer bullet. Previously, military bullets had a blunt, round nose, but the spitzer bullet, with its sharp pointed shape, was more aerodynamic and offered better long range performance.

[ Image ]

The Americans developed the Springfield rifle in response to the experience they had, facing the Spanish troops in Cuba during the Spanish American War. The Spanish, armed with 1893 Mausers in 7x57, were able to support more concentrated fire with their stripper clip loading Mausers than the Americans could, armed with their Krag Jorgensen rifles. This experience was similar to what the British experienced when fighting the Boers in South Africa, armed with the same weapon, while the British were using their Lee rifles in 303. The British were able to add a bridge to the Lee action, which permitted their rifle to be loaded from stripper clips, but the odd Krag Jorgensen was not so amenable to being modified to use stripper or charger clips.

The US chose to design a new bolt action rifle that corrected this shortcoming, and also took the opportunity to adopt a new cartridge at the same time that was rimless, which offered advantages for use in automatic weapons. This became the 30-03 Springfield, and it had a round nosed 220 grain bullet, like the Krag had used.

Upon noticing the advantages that the spitzer bullet conferred, the Americans, like the French, British, and Russians, moved to adopt the spitzer design from the Germans, as well. Just as the Germans had modified their original 8x57 design, so also did the Americans, but the Americans retained the same .300 bore/.308 groove barrel dimensions as the 30-03 and the original Krag.

I am skipping over a host of related points and issues here for the sake of brevity, but the story picks up after WW2:

The Americans noted that the 8x57 in German service provided all of the performance that the 30-06 did, but with a shorter cartridge. This was not such an issue for bolt action weapons, but it was a large issue for automatic weapons, like machine guns. A shorter cartridge with the same performance allowed a machine gun that was shorter and lighter, a big consideration when troops have to carry the thing or when it must be mounted in an aircraft, where every ounce counts. So the Americans began work on a shorter cartridge that retained the same .300/.308 bore/groove diameter bullets, that would not be inferior to the 30-06 in battlefield performance. This was achieved by using the then-new "ball powder" introduced by Olin (the parent company of Winchester). For the military, this new round, the 7.62x51mm, was based on a cartridge case that had the same rim diameter, but was significantly shorter than the 30-06.

Winchester offered almost exactly the same cartridge as the military 7.62x51mm as the 308 Winchester, and later offered a 6mm version, the 243, and a larger version, the 358, based on the same case. Subsequently, there is a 7mm version based on the case called the 7mm-08.

When comparing the 308 to the 30-06 in sporting use, as opposed to military use, the differences are slight. 308 chambered rifles are generally available in a shorter action, which makes for a lighter and handier rifle, than the 30-06 allows. As far as performance, the 308, with less capacity than the 30-06, will drive bullets to approximately the same velocity from 150 gr and lighter, but when comparing bullet weights of 165 gr and above, the 30-06 begins to show real advantages.

So the choice between the two would be based on these two criteria, roughly speaking:

1. How much does the shooter need the weight reduction that the 308 allows over the 30-06?
2. How much does the shooter need the extra performance in bullet weights above 150 gr?

There are other considerations for specialized situations. For instance, it is said that the 308 is inherently more accurate than the 30-06, but this difference would apply to a specialty shooter, not to the sportsman afield.

You can note the difference between these rounds in this picture:

[ Image ]

The second round from the left is the 30-06, and to the right of it is the 8x57. The round on the far right is the 308. This illustrates the relative lengths of these rounds very well.

The idea that the 308 is more aerodynamic than the 30-06 is wrong, because they shoot the same bullets. The only way that aerodynamics would play a role is if you are throwing the whole cartridge at something!

To the OP's original question, I can't answer to the availability issue, but I would have a hard time believing that most any cartridge is more available than 30-06. However, I believe that 308 is prohibited bore in India, where the 30-06 is not. Regarding the other question as to "better ammo" for hunting, the question would go back to my earlier observation: If a light gun for hunting non-dangerous game is called for, then the 308 is your choice. If you need the performance of heavier bullets and rifle weight is not so important, then the 30-06 is your choice. It all depends on the kind of hunting you have in mind.

That said, there are other factors that enter into a choice of a rifle and of a cartridge. To most gun aficionados, what you like is very important. Some folks love the 30-06 and feel the 308 is a "usurper," while others like the advantages of the 308. I suspect that, in most cases, what one likes is probably the most important factor in choosing between the 30-06 and the 308. However, in India, as you are dealing with a prohibited bore vs a non-prohibited bore, I suspect you will tend toward the 30-06 because it is less hassle to obtain both rifle and ammunition.


WoW! Timmy I must say about your extreme knowledge on the subject, you have definitely enlightened me a lot on this particular topic many of my doubts are clear regarding the ammo.The topic definitely is interesting all the more to me now as it sounds like gonna unfold many chapters of history related to the ammo many wars witnessed indeed it might be one of the turning point for development of rifles. Thanks!

Regards

Raman
1 shot 1 kill!

User avatar
timmy
Old Timer
Old Timer
Posts: 2053
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:03 am
Location: home on the range

Re: .308 winchester

Post by timmy » Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:05 am

Ramandeep: I think you will find that firearms history parallels general world history quite closely, especially from the mid-19th century. It often gives a fascinating insight to the process of national development and industrialization, not to mention international relations and politics, that cannot be accessed by those who choose to ignore firearms for personal reasons. This is one aspect of firearms that I find fascinating!
“The principle of self defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi.” - Martin Luther King, Jr.

Post Reply