.22 LR Vs .32 ACP?

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timmy
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Re: .22 LR Vs .32 ACP?

Post by timmy » Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:02 am

My own 2¢:

.22 rimfire of any type has been used by many assassins as their weapon of choice. 3 groups that come to mind have been the CIA, the Mafia, and the Mossad. A .22 LR, for instance, doesn't have very much energy with regard to being a "man stopper," but the solid bullets can achieve significant penetration at close range. Just ask Bobby Kennedy and Sam Giancana.

This makes the point that .22 LR can be an effective killer. However, note the difference between an assassin and someone looking to protect themselves: The assassin chooses when and where they will attack, and thus will look for optimal conditions that provide the best chance for proper bullet placement, which is essential for a bullet with so little energy and little to no expansion. On the other hand, the person who is carrying the .22 LR for self-defense will not have the opportunity to choose the time and place in which to defend him/her self. That means that the person looking to defend is less likely to be offered the opportunity for near-perfect bullet placement.

Another issue with the .22 LR is feeding: the rimmed cartridge is not optimized for reliable feeding, especially in smaller weapons. The larger "sporting" types don't have such a problem, because the magazine is usually angled sufficiently to properly position cartridge rims so that feeding is reliable. Of course, a revolver of any size won't be troubled by this issue, but a revolver's cylinder gap does affect the energy of the bullet somewhat over a pistol of comparable size.

On the other hand, the .32 ACP was designed to function in a pistol without feeding problems, like all of the rest of the ACP cartridge line. That it accomplishes this is borne out by its long life in the market. .32 ACP doesn't have a tremendous amount of energy and falls far short of the 200 ft-lbs that some feel to be the bare minimum for an effective self-defense round.

There are many ways to play this: For instance, some attackers might be frightened by waving any gun at them, or having a gun discharged in their direction, or even being hit by a bullet. On the other hand, an attacker who is for some reason very determined and/or under the influence of drugs may not be deterred by being plugged with a number of bullets that are not immediately lethal.

In the latter case, it is each person who has to decide whether to prepare for any eventuality or to settle for something that is, perhaps, more concealable or fits their requirements more closely in some other way, trading some "stopping power" for some other practical concern.

The cost and availability of .22 LR cannot be beat, and this means that choosing such a weapon may mean that the carrier can practice more with it and become more adept, rather than shooting a couple of rounds a year and hoping that their aim will be good enough if and when the time comes. For me, this would be a big factor to consider, since bullet placement is very critical with both rounds.

Getting close, the .32 ACP can be used with expanding bullets of good reputation, like the CorBon, for example, but perhaps you'd be wise to base some of your decision on what ammunition is actually available to you and how effective it is.

I guess what I'm saying is that your choice ought, perhaps, to be based on just more than comparing one cartridge to another. If this were all that was involved, I would suggest the .32 ACP. But other, equally important considerations would be what guns are actually available to you, what ammunition is actually available to you, how you will carry the weapon (e.g., do you wear a suit, or is size and concealability very important), whether you have other weapons to practice with, or is this your only weapon, etc, etc. I'd almost think you'd be better off making a list of the guns that are available to you and then narrowing that list down by selecting which ones would actually work for you in your intended carry situations -- and then, if you have more than one gun left, choosing what is the best ammo available to do the job you're going to ask of it.

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Re: .22 LR Vs .32 ACP?

Post by amk » Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:21 pm

No problem with my .22 pistol but I've just tried 41 rounds. If you can wait a month I plan to fire a lot more :lol:

AMK

-- Tue Mar 31, 2009 14:22 --

No problem with my .22 pistol but I've just tried 41 rounds. If you can wait a month I plan to fire a lot more :lol:

AMK

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Re: .22 LR Vs .32 ACP?

Post by mundaire » Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:23 pm

Since there has been talk of assassins using the .22 LR, I wonder if anyone remembers the shooting involving Jim Brady (the rabid gun control chap)?

IIRC in the course of the assassination attempt on (the then) president Ronald Reagan, the crazed attacker shot and wounded the president with his .22 revolver.

Besides the president he also shot three others one of which was Jim Brady (who was in the president's staff at the time) - Brady was shot in the head with a direct hit from the assassins very first shot. The point to note here is Mr. Brady survived a direct .22 LR shot to his head (at close range)...

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Re: .22 LR Vs .32 ACP?

Post by Tai Ahom » Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:39 pm

It is the no of hits that count. Not the caliber. Better to have a .22 and hit in the right place than to have a 9 mm and not hit at all. ( Read heavy recoill of larger caliber)

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Re: .22 LR Vs .32 ACP?

Post by amk » Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:24 pm

mundaire wrote:Since there has been talk of assassins using the .22 LR, I wonder if anyone remembers the shooting involving Jim Brady (the rabid gun control chap)?

IIRC in the course of the assassination attempt on (the then) president Ronald Reagan, the crazed attacker shot and wounded the president with his .22 revolver.

Besides the president he also shot three others one of which was Jim Brady (who was in the president's staff at the time) - Brady was shot in the head with a direct hit from the assassins very first shot. The point to note here is Mr. Brady survived a direct .22 LR shot to his head (at close range)...

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Abhijeet
Another perspective. http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php ... stcount=15

"look at one shooting - Hinckley shooting Reagan in 1981. Hink gets off 6 shots of 22lr. One hits Macarthy in the belly (Secret service guy, stepped in front of Reagan); another hits DC cop Delahanty in neck. One hits Brady in forehead; 2 miss; last one hits Reagan under arm, goes thru lung.

Results: Macarthy drops to ground (probably can't believe he just stepped in front of a bullet);
Delahanty goes down;
Brady goes down - central nervous system hit;
Reagan thinks his SS guy broke his ribs pushing him into the car.

One true 'stop' from CNS hit;
2 stops from ? (pain, psychological?)
1 no stop (although Reagan was probably closer to death than the other 3 guys)

Admittedly, that is against people who have little/no expectation of being in a fight, but it is a pretty good percentage, if you ask me.

BTW, I use 45ACP."

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Re: .22 LR Vs .32 ACP?

Post by timmy » Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:59 pm

Maybe some things to add to the attempt by Hinckley on Reagan is that:

1. Both the assassin of Bobby Kennedy and Sam Giancana had the opportunity to get off a number of rounds into these men.

2. The assassin(s) of Sam Giancana, at least, were professional.

3. Hinckley was mentally ill.

4. The Mossad, at least, taught a technique where the assassin would instinctively always fire two rounds whenever they fired.

5. These cases tell us what a .22 can (and perhaps might not) do, but they don't shed a whole lot of light on how the .22 might stack up against a .32 ACP.

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Re: .22 LR Vs .32 ACP?

Post by amk » Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:22 pm

In a controlled environment of course the .32 ACP would perform better.
But the .22 MAY just about get the job done, or may be not. Same can be said about the .32 ACP too, it MAY get the job done, or may be not.

AMK

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Re: .22 LR Vs .32 ACP?

Post by Risala » Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:54 pm

amk wrote:In a controlled environment of course the .32 ACP would perform better.
But the .22 MAY just about get the job done, or may be not. Same can be said about the .32 ACP too, it MAY get the job done, or may be not.

AMK
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Re: .22 LR Vs .32 ACP?

Post by marksman » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:38 pm

In our Indian environment, a .22 LR is pretty okay to scare off a guy. Thanks to the lack of knowledge of handguns generally. People have managed to pull off biggest of heists with toy pistols,I am sure you've heard all this from time to time. Where as in case of Ashar, I am sure he is capable of placing the shots accordingly, after gauging the situation. I wouldn't advice a green horn to buy a .22 though. Psychologically, a rookie may get the sense of being under gunned with it. Besides, one can't ever tire of shooting a quality 22 . :wink: I know fellas who traded away their 32 Walthers and Berettas for 22 caliber pistols once they realized how important hitting the target was. And they haven't regretted since.
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Re: .22 LR Vs .32 ACP?

Post by SARGE7402 » Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:54 am

Thought I'd add a bit of confusion. This site takes the results from actual shootings where the subject stopped what he was doing that got him shot with one shot.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingp ... ?Caliber=0

On a good day the 22 is at most in the 40% range. While even on a bad day a .32 Auto does at least a 49%.

-- Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:29 pm --

Thought I'd throw a monkey wrench into the works. The site below takes it's information from actual shootings.

As you can see on a good day the .22 at best is only a 40'% while even at it's worst a .32 ACP is a 49%

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingp ... ?Caliber=0
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Re: .22 LR Vs .32 ACP?

Post by Risala » Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:35 am

Very intresting info.......the .32 ACP results for a one shot stop are 66%.....in our context I would take that any day.......thanks for sharing.....cheers

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Re: .22 LR Vs .32 ACP?

Post by timmy » Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:36 am

Sarge, that is an interesting set of data -- thanks!

Edited to add: Goodness, there's reload data too! Super!! -- double thanks!!!

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Re: .22 LR Vs .32 ACP?

Post by dev » Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:07 am

Wow, I was just stocking up on .22 ammo. So it is amazing to learn that the 380 performs just marginally better than the 32 acp.
Great stuff.

Dev
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Re: .22 LR Vs .32 ACP?

Post by penpusher » Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:37 am

Sarge,

Thanks for that link.In Indian context where the bulk of the people carrying a pistol, would be carrying a .32,that is invaluable. :cheers:

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Re: .22 LR Vs .32 ACP?

Post by amk » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:29 pm

Now that indeed is very useful. Thanks Sarge.

But isn't there some controversy in the data collection, analysis and conclusion methods adopted by Ed Sanow and Evan Marshall? Not sure what it is but I remember reading wild debates.

AMK

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