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Most effective edged weapon for self defense

All Things Sharp and Pointed: compound and crossbows, knives and swords.
goodboy_mentor
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Most effective edged weapon for self defense

Postby goodboy_mentor » Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:24 pm

Which is the most effective edged weapon for self defense or home defense? Please share your opinions with proper reasoning.

In my opinion, Katar(push dagger) is the most effective edged weapon for self defense, close combat or home defense because of the following reasons -

1. Going by the laws of physics, it can give the most powerful blow into your target, because the pointed edge is fully aligned with the direction of your forearm delivering the thrust(push).

2. You can use it in the shortest possible time. Just pull it out and instinctively punch it in the target. No need to waste your time swinging your arm around to gather momentum to give a slicing blow like with knife or a Khukri or short Kirpan. Think of a boxer giving a quick surprise blow to his opponent. The attack with a Katar will be something similar.

3. If required, you can also give powerful slicing blows or movements

4. It can be reasonably concealed

What is the second preferred edged weapon? It is Gandasa. Mentioned the reasons in the post represented by this link - viewtopic.php?t=23931#p236966 For those who do not know what is Gandasa or how does it look like, it's images are given in the posts represented by these links https://www.indiansforguns.com/viewtopi ... 68#p221999 and https://www.indiansforguns.com/viewtopi ... 68#p222053


All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. - Friedrich Nietzsche

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kshitij
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Re: Most effective edged weapon for self defense

Postby kshitij » Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:16 pm

Intersting topic.
In a self defense scenario having any kind of weapon would be a bonus. Since you have already mentioned the Pros of a push dagger, let me explore some of the Cons i see to it (atleast in my inexperienced eyes)
The push dagger seems like it is designed for a specific purpose i.e punture wounds by stabbing in close combat. Not sure how effective it would be at putting some distance between you and the aggressor by slashing etc given the way it is designed to be held and used.
Secondly, i feel given its light weight and the limitations in the way it can be held, it would take more effort and feel unwieldy while trying to do anything other than stabbing an attacker. For example, if some one were to attack and pin down from the back, i am not sure if i would want to be stuck with a push dagger...
Personally I would go for a large and heavy khukri if i have the time to respond and some distance between me and the attacker or a small and light straight edge weapon(perhaps even a folder) if there is very little time and distance to react.
The khukri seems like an obvious choice in the first case because it is a versatile weapon and its weight and heft does most of the work for you. Can be effectively used to put a safe distance between the attacker and yourself.
In case two (no time and distance to react) a nice folder seems ideal since they take little to no time to deploy and can be wielded in as many ways as one can imagine. At close ranges, a sharp little knife could do a ton of damage too. Above all, it is something that one can have on them at all times in real world scenarios.

I must add i have 0 combat experience of any kind other than the childish scuffles during school, colleges etc., none of which ever involved an edged weapon. So most of what i have said above is from my imagination and from the numerous hours spent fondling and fooling around with what ever little sharpies i have :mrgreen:


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goodboy_mentor
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Re: Most effective edged weapon for self defense

Postby goodboy_mentor » Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:38 pm

Katar was designed with sole purpose of combat in mind.

Puncture wounds at proper place are pretty dangerous and effective, just like proper shot placement with a gun. French especially during Napoleonic era also placed great importance on making puncture wounds with their swords. Katars were designed to puncture chainmail armor. Wouldn't a puncture in the heart or skull with a Katar be almost instantaneously fatal?

If you see medieval pictures of persons in the Indian sub continent, most of the important rulers or generals almost always had a Katar on their person. There must had been some reason for such preference. It is said the Katar has Rajput origins. They must have preferred it for some valid reason.

Of course myself also do not have any "real" combat experience other than childish fights during school days.


All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Mack The Knife
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Re: Most effective edged weapon for self defense

Postby Mack The Knife » Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:57 pm

In my opinion and bearing in mind that I am getting deafer by the day, my first choice of home defense and warning system would be one or more dogs. They do have fangs and nails and qualify as an edged deterrent. Besides which their barking cannot be underestimated. Especially for partially deaf heavy sleepers like me.

Coming to edged implements, it is best to keep as much distance between you and the assailant and my choices include short swords (such as a cutlass), kukhris/sirupates, short machettes or choppers - preferably with a point, short spears with largish blades (such as assegais), medium length axes, etc.

With most of us now living in homes with 9 feet high ceilings, longer edged implements may prove to be a hinderance. Weight is equally important. Too heavy an implement will slow you down. Something in the 1.25 to 1.5 lb range would still cut into or better still through bone without slowing one down. Of course, if one is well versed in using an edged implement and strong enough, one could opt for something slightly heavier. Say, up to 2.5 lbs.. Don't underestimate 1.25 to 1.5 lb blades because they do go through bone when hit with the blades sweet spot.

Whilst large chef's knives make decent defensive knives in a pinch, I would always recommend using something with thicker steel to counter the house breakers jimmybar, crowbar, etc.



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pistolero
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Re: Most effective edged weapon for self defense

Postby pistolero » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:08 am

In a home defense situation, if you have no option, you can even use kitchen knives. Anything is better than nothing.

However if you look at criminal elements, and knife fighting, its all up close and personal, more damage has been done with modified, spoons, knives etc in prison, and they know how to use knives, and simply put home defense people, without training, dont know where to begin.

You want to keep the criminal element away from you. You want to break their resolve and determination to get them to back away and out of your house.

A Short/average length Spear on a Light Metal Haft will be good, Machete, Short Sword, Khukris will also work. As suggested above the Assegai is a very good option. You can get a clone made in India, very easily.

Preparation is everything, the mindset to stand and fight. If you get the family involved and train, the family can respond as a team. This in my mind will make the critical difference.


"Whatever is begun in anger ends in shame."

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nagarifle
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Re: Most effective edged weapon for self defense

Postby nagarifle » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:28 am

smachet,
long enough
short enough
havy enough
puts the fear of God in em,
followed by the first rule of defense, take the offence


Nagarifle

if you say it can not be done, then you are right, for you, it can not be done.

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khullaa.saand
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Re: Most effective edged weapon for self defense

Postby khullaa.saand » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:23 am

A 13" Stiletto....
Easy to carry cause lightweight and foldable, looks intimidating, swings and jabs like a feather, causes deep wounds, round grip so effective to handle forward and backward, bayonet blade style the best.



nitroex700
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Re: Most effective edged weapon for self defense

Postby nitroex700 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:49 am

I consider Wazikashis, Tantos and Khukris as deadly close combat weapons. Khukri are versatile jocks powerful enough to cleave a man into two.The Wazikashis are just deadly cutters - unless the opponent puts solid steel or distance between himself and the blade, in all likelihood, the blade once swung, will most definitely go through that obstacle first and the enemy next.. and then probably through the one after him too.. Tantos are Wazikashi men with a 'height' problem - you will need to get close enough to get punched before you swing...

Another weapon that catches my fancy is the underestimated Karambit, especially if you are good at hand to hand combat - use it well and in a few strikes the enemy would find himself 'bleeding through a thousand cuts'...
But when nothing is available I think things like poking the enemy in the eye hard enough should be motivation enough for him to get away while he can.... :P



Rudransh
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Re: Most effective edged weapon for self defense

Postby Rudransh » Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:05 am

It may sound funny but after having a tons of Knifes both antique and modern best I find is ice breaker .It's strong small and very easy and eager to dive in any medium.

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Veerbhadra



Trajeev
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Re: Most effective edged weapon for self defense

Postby Trajeev » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:36 pm

Katyaar was the weapon of choice in close combat for long time.Check these Katyaars from Maratha & Mogul era. :cheers:
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goodboy_mentor
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Re: Most effective edged weapon for self defense

Postby goodboy_mentor » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:51 pm

Yes Katar was the weapon of choice in close combat for a very long time due to some really valid reasons. Design of Maratha Patta is also based on design principles of Katar due to valid reasons. One of the main reasons is that Katar becomes natural extension of your fist for delivering powerful blows and even cuts if needed. When a heated argument gets escalated between two persons, what happens naturally next? They come to blows. That is exactly what Katar helps you do, deliver swift powerful blows instinctively.

Katar came into disuse in 19th century. Why? Because of Arms Act after the revolt of 1857. In order to prevent another revolt, any and every effective weapon of self defense was attacked by this Arms Act. In order to escape the draconian provisions of Arms Act, people started preferring weapons that could fall in legal grey area, that could be somehow also be classified as agricultural or industrial implements. Example common knives, choppers, axes etc.

Dogs have their own limitations. Unless the dog is well trained and proven to viciously fight till death, it can be easily beaten to scare away or easily poisoned. In any case, it cannot be a substitute for an effective weapon of self defense. Yes, it can certainly play a reasonably good role of a kind of early warning system, provided it does not take the bait and get poisoned.

Use of spear cannot be for just about anyone and everyone, it's use requires reasonable degree of strength, training and skill. Otherwise it can be equally dangerous to you. If you miss your opponent, he can immediately grab the shaft of spear and snatch it from you. Those who are not aware, try suddenly hitting a target with spear or end of a long stick and see how accurately you can hit or miss your target. For the untrained, a sharp long sword is better than a spear due to the fact that your opponent cannot grab the sword from the blade, instead will get his fingers sliced off in the process.

Yes depending upon the situation, common chopping and stabbing weapons are also good.

Of course proper preparations, the will to fight and co-ordinated teamwork is important. But the most effective implements to produce the desired results also cannot be neglected.


All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. - Friedrich Nietzsche

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kshitij
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Re: Most effective edged weapon for self defense

Postby kshitij » Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:58 pm

Well the katar may have been in use for a long time in this region but if we are to look at the close combat weapons used the world over during that period, the most common designs will some what resemble a short sword/cutlass/khukri kind of shape and not the katar.

And even if it were to be accepted that the katars popularity died out due to the implementation of the arms act, it can be argued that the arms act never made a difference to our armed forces or any other armed forces in the world. Then why dont we see the katar (or katar like object) being used by any of the forces any where in the world today? A quick search of preferred knives carried by most kind of armed forces will show a fixed blade knife or even a folder in some cases.

So if one were to go by pure battle proven designs then it is clear what the popular choices are...


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goodboy_mentor
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Re: Most effective edged weapon for self defense

Postby goodboy_mentor » Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:14 pm

Katar has been in use for a long time in this region because it was remarkably effective as a close combat weapon. In short it was a battle tested weapon. Else why was it also adopted by the people who came from different regions like Turko-Mongol/ Mughal rulers. It was also used by Maratha, Sikhs etc. who were fighting politically against the Mughal rulers. Had it been an unworthy weapon, it would not have a long history of use. It was also called Yumdhar due to it's deadly potential. Yum means god or lord of death, dhar means sharp edge of a weapon. Both together meant "sharp edge of god or lord of death".

About armed forces using a particular edged weapon or not, all the edged weapons by themselves have been relegated to the back ground due to development of firearms. They give emphasis on knife cum bayonet type weapons because they can be affixed to the rifle. You cannot affix a Katar as a bayonet to a rifle. Medieval or ancient armed forces had much more experience and knowledge about the battle worthiness of edged weapons in edged weapon combat. Modern armed forces do not have such experience or knowledge due to change in nature of warfare. Thus it would be unfair to draw conclusions about combat effectiveness of Katar from what the modern armed forces are using for purpose of edged weapon combat. By the way, the regimental insignia of Rajput Regiment has crossed Katars due to its association and history of use. Had it been really an unworthy weapon, it would not find it's place in the regimental insignia.


All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. - Friedrich Nietzsche

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kshitij
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Re: Most effective edged weapon for self defense

Postby kshitij » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:51 pm

Never said it is unworthy, but the topic of discussion is "most effective edged weapon for self defense". The fact that a weapon can be held/wielded in only one way seems like a major limiting factor.


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nitroex700
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Re: Most effective edged weapon for self defense

Postby nitroex700 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:32 pm

Katar is a medieval weapon. Daggers, utility knives, Tantos, Khukris, KBars etc are weapons suitable for the modern battlefield. Everything has its own purpose - Katar was meant to be like a 'side arm', a fall back weapon, though there were some Scimitar like Katars too. Additionally they protected the wrist against edged weapons. Tantos were more of knives than swords.. Khukris were more swords than knives..

You don't have such distinctions now - emphasis is on all-weather multi-utility function. Assault rifles do the killing while the knives do the chores and the occassional stabbing.. A multi-utility Khukri of modern design could easily do everything a Fairbairn dagger could do and then some more.. However if you're a soldier looking to slice the enemy without a sound, a Tanto or Wazikashi may be better suited.




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