Indians For Guns

Wow, thanks Moin!! Now this is called "hobby"!!! Need to visit the museum ASAP (Jr. EssDee has holidays coming up). I visited this almost 10 years back, and was more interested in that huge highly carved wooden box they have on the 1st floor. Why don't you guys come along? I'll get the big SLR and tripod too, so we can take nice low light photos without flash.

As AGN said, Bhau Daji Lad Museum has pretty good models of the progression of Mumbai from Salcette to Bombay. Also good models of ships, etc. And agree with you guys that the respect for Shivaji Maharaj seems to be limited to renamings of buildings, airports, etc. The true respect, which can be shown in preserving his legacy, is nowhere to be seen! Should take a leaf out of the Western countries.

If you ever find yourself in Kolkata, do visit the Victoria Memorial. Apart from ogling the PDA on display, there's a pretty good collection of weapons, including a sword belonging to Tipu Sultan, Maratha weapons, East India Company weapons, etc. There's also a separate section detailing the history of Kolkata, from the facsimile of the sale of land to Job Charnock, to independence. The tiny "museum" above the Red Fort gates in Delhi also has a proportionately tiny exhibit, but focusses more on WW1. Of course, you would have seen the Maharaja's museums in Rajasthan and the Nizam's collections in Hyderabad.

brihacharan wrote:Moin,
> Thank you for the conducted tour - it was a great experience
> Your photographs are well captured & documented.
> Now a must visit shortly to see them - "Face to Face"
Briha

Sure Sir, our CB visit is pending. Let's plan something soon.

Thanks
Moin.

Skyman wrote:Bravo, your effort is commendable.

Skyman good to see you back to normalcy

Regards
Moin.

essdee1972 wrote:Wow, thanks Moin!! Now this is called "hobby"!!! Need to visit the museum ASAP (Jr. EssDee has holidays coming up). I visited this almost 10 years back, and was more interested in that huge highly carved wooden box they have on the 1st floor. Why don't you guys come along? I'll get the big SLR and tripod too, so we can take nice low light photos without flash.

As AGN said, Bhau Daji Lad Museum has pretty good models of the progression of Mumbai from Salcette to Bombay. Also good models of ships, etc. And agree with you guys that the respect for Shivaji Maharaj seems to be limited to renamings of buildings, airports, etc. The true respect, which can be shown in preserving his legacy, is nowhere to be seen! Should take a leaf out of the Western countries.

If you ever find yourself in Kolkata, do visit the Victoria Memorial. Apart from ogling the PDA on display, there's a pretty good collection of weapons, including a sword belonging to Tipu Sultan, Maratha weapons, East India Company weapons, etc. There's also a separate section detailing the history of Kolkata, from the facsimile of the sale of land to Job Charnock, to independence. The tiny "museum" above the Red Fort gates in Delhi also has a proportionately tiny exhibit, but focusses more on WW1. Of course, you would have seen the Maharaja's museums in Rajasthan and the Nizam's collections in Hyderabad.

Wonderful SDDa an SLR with a Tripod would be great. We can document all the blades accurately. Lets plan something !!! I've not seen Bhau Daji Lad Museum yet. bug*3r, did'nt know about the Victoria Memeorial Museum. Will try and see if I go to kolkotta.

Regards
Moin.

Straight Swords and Khandas on Display











The sword on top is a Kilij and the one below is a Yataghan





This is a Sosun Pata



This is a Shamsheer or a Scimtar

Dear Moin,
Can you have translated what is written on the Akbar shield ? Would like to find couple of things -

1. At which point did he use it ? Since the shield looks formidable and with one of the Solar eyes pierced, obviously a non-ornamental and combat-experienced.

2. The other fascinating aspect is the depiction of the Sun in the center. That would imply a Rajput (Suryavanshi) influence or even a Persian (Pahlavi-Mitra) connection. More fascinating does it appear due to the Shri Yantra engraved in 2-D (or the Star of David) which symbolizes Shiv-Shakti Union. (Upward triangle - the phallus and downward - the Delta of Venus) Hence with the Surya and Shiv-Shakti angle, if I were to bet on something, I would consider it as one of the Rajput dowry that Jodhabai brought along.

3. Now that the shield has 12 rashi signs - the Sun would assume zodiacal significance than purely religious one. Also the "makar" is symbolized not by the crocodile (magar) but by the "mountain/ sea goat" which is modern accepted sign supposedly adopted from Greek version of the zodiac. This would imply European origin. Thus the Shri Yantra would actually be The Star of David. Which would imply a gift from a Jew to the Mughal. Now there was quite some freedom granted to settled refugee Jews in Maharashtra/ Kerala and to visiting traders in Kashmir and hence now I would take the shield to be a gift from such a visiting trader Jew in Kashmir for whatever trade grants he would have got from the Sultan. Which would then also imply that the shield may not have seen action and that damage to the Sun's eye could be a result of some vandalism.

Hence the translation would throw some light on the shield's history - in short, back to Auntyji's 'sharan' unless Brih-charan-ji springs up a surprise by displaying his grasp of the Farsi.
(I would not be surprised if he does )

Another Q to slingshot/ Moin/ Mack The Knife - Considering the amount of gold so very generously splashed around on the swords - would it be safe to assume that they were rarely used in combat ? I mean would the gold not cut or be knocked off in case of mighty blows and impact ?

That is a commendable work Moin!!! Bravo to you!!!

Now, I understand why the Opinel blades are called Yatagan style blades. The shape was copied from the Yatagan swords.

Amol bhai, what an observation and analysis of the shield!!! The image of Surya looks very much like the ones figured in the palaces of our Suryavanshi Maharajas of Rajasthan, notably the one in the City Palace, Udaipur.

best regards
tirpassion

airgun_novice wrote:Dear Moin,
Can you have translated what is written on the Akbar shield ? Would like to find couple of things -

1. At which point did he use it ? Since the shield looks formidable and with one of the Solar eyes pierced, obviously a non-ornamental and combat-experienced.

2. The other fascinating aspect is the depiction of the Sun in the center. That would imply a Rajput (Suryavanshi) influence or even a Persian (Pahlavi-Mitra) connection. More fascinating does it appear due to the Shri Yantra engraved in 2-D (or the Star of David) which symbolizes Shiv-Shakti Union. (Upward triangle - the phallus and downward - the Delta of Venus) Hence with the Surya and Shiv-Shakti angle, if I were to bet on something, I would consider it as one of the Rajput dowry that Jodhabai brought along.

3. Now that the shield has 12 rashi signs - the Sun would assume zodiacal significance than purely religious one. Also the "makar" is symbolized not by the crocodile (magar) but by the "mountain/ sea goat" which is modern accepted sign supposedly adopted from Greek version of the zodiac. This would imply European origin. Thus the Shri Yantra would actually be The Star of David. Which would imply a gift from a Jew to the Mughal. Now there was quite some freedom granted to settled refugee Jews in Maharashtra/ Kerala and to visiting traders in Kashmir and hence now I would take the shield to be a gift from such a visiting trader Jew in Kashmir for whatever trade grants he would have got from the Sultan. Which would then also imply that the shield may not have seen action and that damage to the Sun's eye could be a result of some vandalism.

Hence the translation would throw some light on the shield's history - in short, back to Auntyji's 'sharan' unless Brih-charan-ji springs up a surprise by displaying his grasp of the Farsi.
(I would not be surprised if he does )

Bhau; Very interesting observations. I doubt the 5 pointed star would be the Satr of David. What is inscribed on the shield is



Reposting the above for your reference. WRT to having gold koftagiri work on the blades and loosing it, very miniscule amounts of gold is used. Katanaji was kind enough to photograph the Koftagiri process for us. Please check my thread. Some amazing work still being done in Rajasthan.

http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... &start=120

What's a few mg's of gold for an emperor or royalty. Check out Takht e Taus or Peacock throne for Emperor Shahjahaan. The more jewel studded weapons would obviously be Darbar Swords, not to be used in battle. Mans jewellery...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacock_Throne

The Sun Symbol is definately a Rajput Symbol. Akabr was the Mughal Emperor who made allies with the Powerful Hindu Rajput Clan by marrying Jodhabai.

tirpassion wrote:That is a commendable work Moin!!! Bravo to you!!!

Now, I understand why the Opinel blades are called Yatagan style blades. The shape was copied from the Yatagan swords.

Amol bhai, what an observation and analysis of the shield!!! The image of Surya looks very much like the ones figured in the palaces of our Suryavanshi Maharajas of Rajasthan, notably the one in the City Palace, Udaipur.

best regards
tirpassion

Thanks Dada, did'nt know Opinels were called Yatagan Styled Blades !!

Moin, I don't think me + SLR + tripod can better you + cellphone!! Awesome, man!!

AGN, what an analysis, just looking at the photos!!! I think we'll have to schedule 2-3 days at CSVS - Day 1 - photography, Day 2 - Moin gives a who's who presentation (for me, the only shape I instantly recognise is a Khukri!!), Day 3 - AGN lectures on the likely historical significance of the swords, shields, etc.

Dear Moin,

BTW, I first read the plaque as "Faulad par sone ki peechkari" - and I was like "WOW"

It's indeed a six-pointed star (not the 5-pointed "Path of Venus") - plus what's written inside in Farsi would be interesting. For some reason I wish our school Hindi teacher, Shri Tripathi were alive - he was a master of Urdu, Arabic and Farsi but still taught Hindi at our high school level. Most of us never realized his worth when he was alive.

Anyway, now that the star is indeed 6-pointed we are back to square one - Jewish gift or Rajput dowry ? Depiction of moustached Sun with "U-shaped" Vishnu/ Aditya tilak => definitely Indian.

Dear Brihji/ Slingshot/ SD/ Moin,

We - the IFG CMG have to stop talking in terms of CB and CM lest someone think it's some new missile we are discussing about... BTW, someone ran away from "raan" and someone only said "How D'ya" -
Boy! Am I hungry! And yet all set for the Decathlon...

Moin,my man, you did a fantastic job with this thread. Thank you very much for treating us to this historical treasure.Very educative and hugely enjoyable.


Best-
Vikram