Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by Moin. » Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:57 pm

brihacharan wrote:Hi Moin,
> I truly admire your patience and the trouble you've taken to document these treasures.
> They were not only a visual treat but information / knowledge that many of us were either not aware of or had the opportunity to know.
> I think it would be worth your while to cut a CD with appropriate titles & notes - that would serve as a 'Teaching Tool' to students of history in schools & colleges. This would be like bringing history alive :D

> If I may humbly suggest to our MODS - Both Moin & Slingshot deserve to be honored with the "Poster of the Month" award.
> Moin for his contribution on "Indian Edged Weapons" & Slingshot for his contribution on "Birds in our Backyards". Two remarkable & painstaking posts that snowballed with responses from virtually every IFGian.
Briha
BrihaSir, thank you so much. I am humbled by your appreciation. Still learning, the CD and teaching should be done by Katanaji who has handson experience in this . But thank you so much, I'm so glad you liked the post. As far as your recommedation is concerned, I'm not worthy sir. Just took some pics and uploaded them... :D :D

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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by Moin. » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:01 pm

brihacharan wrote:Arigun Novice wrote:
Hence the translation would throw some light on the shield's history - in short, back to Auntyji's 'sharan' unless Brih-charan-ji springs up a surprise by displaying his grasp of the Farsi.
(I would not be surprised if he does ;) )


Hi All,
Akbar’s Shield
The inscription within the Star of David (In fact it’s the primordial symbol of Shakti – the upward triangle being ‘Male’ & the inverted triangle being ‘Female’ – the very embodiment of ‘Creation’).
The script is Urdu which is very akin to Farsi. Although in later years the Moghuls replaced Urdu with Farsi in all official documents.
The Persian / Farsi language has been written with a number of different scripts, including the Old Persian Cuneiform, Pahlavi, Aramaic, and Avestan & Cyrillic alphabets. After the Islamic conquest of the Persian Sassanian Empire in 642 AD, Arabic became the language of government, culture and especially religion.

Modern Persian appeared during the 9th century. It is written in a version of the Arabic script and is full of words of Arabic origin. There are also two methods of writing Persian / Farsi with the Latin alphabet.

Under Mongolian and Turkish rulers, Persian / Farsi came to be adopted as the language of government in Turkey, Central Asia and India, where it was used for centuries.

Persian / Farsi is a member of the Iranian branch of Indo-European languages spoken by about 130 million people, mainly in Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan. There are also significant numbers of speakers in many other countries, including Uzbekistan, Bahrain, Iraq, Turkey, Kuwait, Azerbaijan, Israel, Turkmenistan, Oman, Yemen, the UAE and the USA.

In Afghanistan Persian is known as Dari or Dari-Persian, while in Tajikistan it's known as Tajiki.

Back to the inscription it reads “Buland Iqbal Shah-en-Shah Akbar – San 106/7 Hijri” which means

Buland = Exalted, Iqbal = Blessed / Noble / Fortunate, Shah-en-Shah = King of Kings
Hijri = Islamic calendar year (coincides with the migration of Prophet Mohamed

Hence “Buland Iqbal Shah-en-Shah Akbar” = “Blessed be the Exalted King of Kings - Akbar”

From the look of it when seen in totality this incorporation of the Star of David + the inscription appears to be a later addition.

There is story about this shield – A Rajput armourer approached Akbar and requested that he be appointed as the official armourer to his army. The reason being that he can make ‘Shields’ that no sharp weapon could pierce & spears that could penetrate any shield.

(Birbal who heard this asked the Armourer – “If so your spear can penetrate your Shield” to which the Armourer replied – Yes indeed but the enemy wouldn’t possess my Spear!)

Asked to produce a sample of his Shield the Armourer showed his ware – Akbar liked it and kept it as his personal Shield. This Shield came with the Zodiac design (protection from the ruling Gods of the planets) – The Sun in the centre represented the belief that Rajput Kings belonged to the “Surya Vansh”.
Now having acquired the Shield the Inscription was subsequently added to create an exclusive identity as it belonged to Akbar.

Briha

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Sir dont tell me you can read Farsi as well.... Standing Ovation Sir.. From where did you get the sheild story ??
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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by Moin. » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:04 pm

TC wrote:
Moin. wrote:Done with the pics. Hope you gents enjoyed watching them as much as I did seeing and photographing them in person.

Thanks for going through the thread.

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Moin.
Bravo Moin dear..... cant find words to thank you :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

BRILLIANT JOB

TC
Lollzz Thank you TcDa...

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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by Moin. » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:05 pm

airgun_novice wrote:
brihacharan wrote:[SNIP]
> If I may humbly suggest to our MODS - Both Moin & Slingshot deserve to be honored with the "Poster of the Month" award.
> Moin for his contribution on "Indian Edged Weapons" & Slingshot for his contribution on "Birds in our Backyards" . Two remarkable & painstaking posts that snowballed with responses from virtually every IFGian.
Briha
:agree: Both of then highly deserve that recognition. I second :cheers:

Amol Bhau, kay tumhi pan :)

Here's some thing I found on the sheild

http://star-of-david.blogspot.in/2009/0 ... -seal.html

http://temp.net23.net/lkc/documents/det ... hakra.html
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Akbar’s shield with Solomon’s seal

This metal shield (click the link) with the zodiac Signs and with Solomon’s Seal framing the date 1594, belonged to the Moghul emperor Akbar (1542 –1605) and it is presented in the British Museum. On the web page of The disciples of Bhagawan Shri Lahari Krishna they write that the hexagram is known for almost all the Hindus in India as a symbol of the arrival of their king, who would unite them and rebuild the Indian nation. The authors of this page go on and tell us that Akbar’s shield reflects this messianic belief, since he put this six-pointed star near Pisces believing that the Indian Messiah is expected to come in February.

This messianic belief (assocated to the hexagram) is amazingly similar to the the Jewish and the Christian messianic beliefs - so the question is where exactly did this belief originate?
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

http://www.tantra-kundalini.com/anahata.htm
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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by Moin. » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:17 pm

essdee1972 wrote:Request Mods to look into Brihaji's suggestion. I third.
SDda Thanks :) Glad you liked the post


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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by brihacharan » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:40 pm

Moin wrote....
This messianic belief (associated to the hexagram) is amazingly similar to the the Jewish and the Christian messianic beliefs - so the question is where exactly did this belief originate?

> Where else - But our Motherland - INDIA :D
> The upward pointed triangle represents "Fire" (Energy) & the downward pointing triangle represents "Water" (Giver of Life)
> In spiritual terms they are the Phallus & Yoni - The confluence of which creates Life.
> Only GOD is capable of creating Life - Hence the Power = Shakti.
> The 'Hexagram' - Six pointed Star was adopted by ancient Hebrews to represent Occult Power .... It's a big story :D
> Christianity & Islam are derivatives of Judaism hence certain adaptations & acceptance is seen in them.
> When "Ishamel" the son born to Abraham & Herat (his maid servant) lost out to "Issac" the son of Abraham & Zephora(his legally wedded wife) although Ishamel was born first the seeds of discontent was sown.
> So nearly after 400/500 years after Christ the descendants of Ishamel convened & the concept of Islam took shape.
> Prophet Muhamed is said to be a descendant of Ishamel.
> BTW I got the Farsi script read by my friend who is a Lay Parsee Priest (Jimmy Anklesaria) & the story of the Rajput Armourer & Birbal's quiz came from my Sanskrit Teacher!
> My Parsee Priest friend & I used to have several discussions on the similarity between Rig Veda & Zend Avesta (both supposedly of Aryan Origin) He even presented me with a copy of Zend Avesta with English translation!
Briha

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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by Katana » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:25 pm

Sorry I missed this! Have been travelling. Amazing well preserved and amazing perseverance by Moin for clicking just about each article.

I spent a month or two in 1987 studying in Elphinstone College, before I moved to another one. I remember going across to the Prince of Wales Museum and the surrounding Kalaghoda area (the Museum of Modern Art was established later). Somehow, they seem to be better looked after now. Apart from arms the Museum also has some amazing and diverse art objects.

@brihacharan -Hexagram=Sri Yantra!That is a sign for Goddess Amba and the dual prowess of Shiv-Shakti. The story about 'Rajput Armourer' might hold water, because all Rajputs follow the Shiv-Shakti doctrine, although I doubt if the 'armourer' would have actually been a Rajput (that would be outside his calling in those days)! Anyway, it is said that after Humayun till Aurangzeb, all the Mughal Emperors were half Rajput through their mothers.
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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by hvj1 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:06 pm

Moin
What a fantastic thread! Thank you very much for the effort and to all those who have contributed to its contents. AGN, Brihaji,and others.
Best Regards

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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by TC » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:10 pm

essdee1972 wrote:Request Mods to look into Brihaji's suggestion. I third.
I fourth :D

TC

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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by airgun_novice » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:50 pm

A few things OT (but in the flow of discussion)-

Yup - now even the Jews have accepted that the lots of OT fables have been generously adopted from the Book of Gilgamesh in Mesopotamia (SW Persia) - so quite possibly - in fact certainly - the origin is INDIA. Quite like the fables that a certain (Bene Israeli ?) Jew merchant took (Bruhad Katha - from court of Shalivahan) to his folks in Turkey-African region and came back to us as Aesop's fables. Eventually, the Jew elders disapproved of Aesop's "Eastern wisdom" and first sold him into slavery and later put him to death incensed at the story of the Eagle and the beatle.

Anyway, the "Shriyantra" is not 2-D as is usually depicted but 3-D and carved out of a single block of stone, crystal or wood. It's believed that the Shriyantra installed in the foundation of Shripati Balaji (Thirupathi) Temple by Jagadguru Adi Shankar is what gives the temple its power.

Now some facts (or points) I learnt recently from a 'teacher'.

1. Most of what we get are fabricated and joined by adhesives or bonding agents and hence lack the "power" of a real Shriyantra.
2. When viewed from a certain angle you see the 6 points and *that* is the Shriyantra but from the other, i.e. exactly 180 degrees, you see only the 5 points and the same yantra thus becomes SHIV YANTRA.
3. Hence the devotee is advised to be *careful* in its installation. While the worship of Shri yantra will return material benefits, the worship of Shiv yantra will take one *away* from material aspects of life and towards Spiritual Truth (like Shiva, the Ascetic).
4. The "secrets" of the Shri yantra are known only to the top Masters and probably to the Dalai Lama and passed on to a very select few. So anyone who claims to know and teach in public domain or media etc. for fee or free is probably 99% fake. -> Issued in public interest only. :-)

Disclaimer: I do not own any Shriyantra or its manufacturing unit or any marketing enterprise/ agency. ;-)

Back to the Akbar Shield:

1. Brihji, your story should have come on April 1st. :-) ROTFL Boy ! You really had us there. :cheers: May be one of the spears made by that smith actually landed in hands of Akbar's enemies and that led to the piercing of the shield at Surya's eye ? :-) BTW, the spear is actually meant to be thrown unless used in duel (one-on-one) and thus would definitely land on the side of the enemy. Thus if the smith actually made ballistics as good as he claimed then rest assured he was working against Akbar's interest. :-)
2. The "Meen" angle could imply Absolute Deliverence, i.e. Moksha - the Meen being a "Moksha" water rashi. Incidentally, if you look at the shield picture again you shall see that the SoD is embossed closer to the sign before (or after - being a Circle) the "Meen".
3. The "Meen" incidentally also is the first avatar of Vishnu which rescued humans (and some of the animal kingdom) and finds its way into the (pre-Abrahamic, 5-6000 yr old) Book of Gilgamesh which later the 'slaves' of Persians turned into the Story of Noah's Ark.
4. The "Meen" is shown to be looking and progressing bidirectional - implying that though that Man has a chance to head towards Moksha, his indecision and fickle-mind can return him to the web of the "Matrix". :-) Now isn't that exactly what a KING is -> he can either lead his people to a life of content, prosperity and peace by his actions and decisions or towards chaos and destruction... The West, similarly, had their Sword of Damocles hanging on the king's head.

By and large, my opinion is now towards the ornamental nature of the shield and the symbolic nature of the data enshrined therein. May be it hung behind and above Akbar's throne. May be he used some other shields like his 40 sword-option in actual combats. May be ... just may be... :-)

Over to you - O Masters of Steel ! :cheers:

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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by Ganesh TT » Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:45 pm

moin....really thanks for sharing this wonderful pics....thanks
Thanks

GANESH TT

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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by pistolero » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:19 pm

Moin,

A job well done, a catalog of the Edged Weapons of the Prince of Wales Museum is something I have been waiting on :)

GN Pant, never got around to doing it :) , but you have done a splendid job of getting all the images together.

Keep up the good work.

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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by Sakobav » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:57 pm

Moin

amazing pictures and what a find. great to know that Indian museums have such historic artifacts. Amazingly and thankfully they are still in India

best

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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by Moin. » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:19 am

Katana wrote:Sorry I missed this! Have been travelling. Amazing well preserved and amazing perseverance by Moin for clicking just about each article.

I spent a month or two in 1987 studying in Elphinstone College, before I moved to another one. I remember going across to the Prince of Wales Museum and the surrounding Kalaghoda area (the Museum of Modern Art was established later). Somehow, they seem to be better looked after now. Apart from arms the Museum also has some amazing and diverse art objects.

@brihacharan -Hexagram=Sri Yantra!That is a sign for Goddess Amba and the dual prowess of Shiv-Shakti. The story about 'Rajput Armourer' might hold water, because all Rajputs follow the Shiv-Shakti doctrine, although I doubt if the 'armourer' would have actually been a Rajput (that would be outside his calling in those days)! Anyway, it is said that after Humayun till Aurangzeb, all the Mughal Emperors were half Rajput through their mothers.
Katanaji, Not letting you off so easily.... Your comments on the Hilts, specially the one with tbe two horse heads and the engraving in between. WHATwould be the possible orgins of such a blade.

Thanks
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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by Moin. » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:20 am

hvj1 wrote:Moin
What a fantastic thread! Thank you very much for the effort and to all those who have contributed to its contents. AGN, Brihaji,and others.
Best Regards
Thank you Hemantji. :)

Regards
Moin.
In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. Camus

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