Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

All Things Sharp and Pointed: compound and crossbows, knives and swords.
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Moin.
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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by Moin. » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:15 am

marthandan wrote:moin...what do i say...i have been looking through this thread every day since you posted (smiley paying obeisance)

my favorites are, 1. the arrow with a mechanical broadhead, 2. Akbar's shield and 3. the fourth axe from top in the first picture.

one Q - the all steel straight sword in page 2 is from an older era...isn't it? looks similar to south indian swords of the pandya / chola era.
Thanks so much Marthandan. No, none of the swords are so old. One of the Khandas is with an Old Hindu Box Hilt type but surely not that old. I was recently reading about the swords from the Gupta Period. I should have some material that should interest you. The straight swords in India are more than 1500 BC old. I have some pics of old carvings and paintings which I will post in due course.

Many Thanks
Moin.
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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by dr.jayakumar » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:26 am

Very interesting especially your mom being able to read Arabic and Farsi..thats incredible.
i have question for you Moin....where these blades made in india or elsewhere?if made in india,what happened to those craftsmen and their descendants?why aren't they making knives like the rest of the world?
regards and thanks for sharing Moin.
dr.jk

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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by brihacharan » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:42 pm

dr.jayakumar wrote:Very interesting especially your mom being able to read Arabic and Farsi..thats incredible.
i have question for you Moin....where these blades made in india or elsewhere?if made in india,what happened to those craftsmen and their descendants?why aren't they making knives like the rest of the world?
regards and thanks for sharing Moin.
dr.jk
Dr. JK wrote.....
If made in India,what happened to those craftsmen and their descendants? Why aren't they making knives like the rest of the world?

> Good question Doc :D
> The most probable answer to this question is...
> The British put an embargo on Indians making any sort of weapons or armament during their rule...worrying that these arms would be used for a revolution to gain independence.
> They made sure that these were made in Britain & then imported to India - Eg. Wilkinsons were the sword makers for their entire colony that included 'Ceremonial Swords'.
> The Brits if you recall history made sure that most textile items were made in Manchester & imported to India. In fact Indian cotton were taken to Manchester to be woven into cloth & sent back to India.
> Do you know that even ordinary pencils & fountain pens & inks were imported from the UK during Pre-Independent days :D
Briha

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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by airgun_novice » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:55 pm

brihacharan wrote: > Warranty Periods hold good if there is a 'manufacturing defect' :lol:
> Post that he should opt for a AMC (Annual Maintenance Contract) :D
> Wonder if his passion for blades will go into the back-burner at-least initially :roll:
Briha
Dear Brihji et al,

Warranty period does not necessarily cover manufacturing defects - but definitely comes with "Terms & Conditions". ;-) Rest assured Moinbhau *will* have an AMC - what with a doctor literally at his "bed and call". ROTFL Nor do I think his passion will go anywhere but stay on the front burner with a blade ever ready for forging and heat treatment - a true lover (of blade) that he is... ROTFL

Ain't I right Moin ? :twisted: We better get that biryani out now. :twisted:
regs
A.

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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by dr.jayakumar » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:49 am

Thanks Brihaji.
regards
dr.jk

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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by Moin. » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:45 am

dr.jayakumar wrote:Very interesting especially your mom being able to read Arabic and Farsi..thats incredible.
i have question for you Moin....where these blades made in india or elsewhere?if made in india,what happened to those craftsmen and their descendants?why aren't they making knives like the rest of the world?
regards and thanks for sharing Moin.
dr.jk
http://tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/V ... -9809.html

Dr.Saab; My mum did her schooling in an urdu medium school in Mumbai. Farsi was one of the subjects taught in urdu schools in those times. Most Muslims can read arabic since childhood when they learn to read the Quran. My mum used to be a free lance writer nd journalist for many urdu newspapers for womens rights etc etc so she is well versed in these languages. Just that age has taken its toll on here eyesight.

Damascus in India is as old as 400 BC. In fact King Porus presented Alexander the Great with Thirty Pounds of steel for sword making. India was far ahead of others when it came to steel technology.

Though the art of Damascus came to its zenith in the 16th and 17th Century in Middle East amd Persia under the patronage of the Mughal Dynasty.

WHY can't damascus be made any more ? Simple answer is that the ore used to make these swords calles Urruke in Tamil is not available any more.The rosettes or swirl patterns or jauhars as they are called are natural formations of carbides in steel that are pearliets metasites etc (not sure if tbe spellings are right).

These carbides made the steel extremely hard and gave it am abitilty to get and retain a good edge. There are legends of damascus swords being able to slice through rifle barrels. But these are again legends like the Excalibur or Shivajis Bhavani Sword or the Sword of Tipu Sultan or Khandas weighing 30 kilos. ( ** There is always a mystical quality to swords that is fascinating. The soul of the warrior is said to reside in his sword, this has held true since time immemorial. This is a wepon that has shed more blood, changed the face of civlisations and altered the course of history. It is but natural that these legends become synonomous with such a thing ** ).

THE damascus that you get now is pattern welded Damascus where two billets of high and low carbon steel are welded together hammered twisted to get these swirl paatterns. It is then dipped in etchant like Ferrous chloride where the low carbon stell dissolves ane the pattern becomes visible. THIS IS also called faux damascus
Last edited by Moin. on Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by Moin. » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:50 am

And as far as ornamentation and embillishment work is concerned there is still some top quality Koftagiri work being done in Rajasthan. Please do look up Katanajis posts in my thread Buying Sharp n Shiny Objects in Rajasthan. Its only that for any art or craft to survive it needs patrons. How many people are left who can commision swords or weapons like these with gold and precious stones and such fine work and with our obselete Arms Act how many people can buy swords in the first place.

Trust that answers your queries.

Regards
MOIN.
Last edited by Moin. on Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by Moin. » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:51 am

airgun_novice wrote:
brihacharan wrote: > Warranty Periods hold good if there is a 'manufacturing defect' :lol:
> Post that he should opt for a AMC (Annual Maintenance Contract) :D
> Wonder if his passion for blades will go into the back-burner at-least initially :roll:
Briha
Dear Brihji et al,

Warranty period does not necessarily cover manufacturing defects - but definitely comes with "Terms & Conditions". ;-) Rest assured Moinbhau *will* have an AMC - what with a doctor literally at his "bed and call". ROTFL Nor do I think his passion will go anywhere but stay on the front burner with a blade ever ready for forging and heat treatment - a true lover (of blade) that he is... ROTFL

Ain't I right Moin ? :twisted: We better get that biryani out now. :twisted:


regs
A.

GOWD Raan Biryani it is when ever you guys are free or you will not stop pulling my legs lolzzzzzz...... :mrgreen:
In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. Camus

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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by essdee1972 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:42 am

On Damascus - the old time steel (or iron, rather) was purified in the forging process itself. Hammered to take out the impurities. Hence, it never reached the levels of purity / consistency today's steel reaches. For example, if the guy doing the hammering was a bit under the weather or had a fight with the missus, the steel might be a little under-purified, and the properties could be vastly different! (steel is a crazy thing, 0.01% of some alloying element can twist the properties around). Plus, although the art of steel making was perfected in India, some other parts of Asia, Toledo, etc., but the science was not understood to a large extent till the arrival of the microscope.

After the Industrial Revolution, with the large scale manufacture of pig iron in blast furnaces (blame it on the Brits, again), and subsequently steel by the Linz-Donawitz (the Austrians this time!) process, the "hand-crafted" quality could never be achieved again.

And with the industrial revolution, not only in the "colonies", but also in the "home country" or Continental Europe, the hand-makers of many things simply starved or were forced to take up menial jobs in factories. Some of Charles Dickens' novels capture this process / tragedy. After all, mass production is far cheaper and gives "acceptable quality". The same is happening when you see Chinese stuff flooding the world today. So many people would have lost their jobs, from US to India, because the Chinese stuff is cheap, and of "acceptable quality".

Technically, swords should have become more affordable (just like steel utensils) but the colonial laws which our so-called free country sees fit to continue, screws things up!! Moreover, the current day swords, if made properly, would be much better (and far far more consistent in quality) than the Excaliburs or Bhawani Talwars. Also, the current day rifle barrels can probably take a blow from a 30-kilo khanda without flinching (the barrels and their metal having improved over the last few centuries). If the law makes swords free, and you need a sword to actually fight with, and not to hang on the wall, I suggest you would be better off with a state-of-the-art material rather than Damascus. Of course, it wouldn't be as good-looking as one of those antiques!
Cheers!

EssDee
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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by airgun_novice » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:05 pm

Thanks for the info SD. :cheers:

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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by brihacharan » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:51 pm

Hi Moin / SD,
> Great fundas on Damascus & the art of Sword Making :D
> Would appreciate if some 'Gyan' is let loose on Samurai Sword Making....
> I remember seeing a film clip that demonstrates how a billet of a certain grade of steel is forged / folded / forged ...to create a sort of laminate which is finally made into the Samurai Sword.
> I believe the repeated folding & forging gives the blade great resilience & tenacity + a razor sharp edge that is prized by the Samurais.
Briha

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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by pistolero » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:29 pm

Dear Briha,

Here is a quick overview :D

Making a Japanese blade be it a Katana or any other blade begins with the processing of Iron bearing Sand into "Tamahagane"
The whole smelting process is very unique, and is still carried out in the Tradtional Manner, wherein a Clay Furnace/smelter (also called Tatara) is built and the iron is processed for 3 days.

This process which involves smelting the Iron Sand "Satetsu", which has Iron Ore along with Charcoal, the whole process is unique and requires a delicate balance of temperature, and the amount of Iron Sand and Charcoal which is being used. Its a lengthy process and I will be happy to share videos later. Basically this process creates both High Carbon & Low Carbon steel.

This steel is sorted and crushed into a plate, post this it is crushed again and soft and hard steel is sorted and separated in heating trays. The soft steel called "Shingane" forms the inner core of the sword and the hard steel forms the outer body called "Kawagane"

The next step is to forge the Shingane, the inner core, the heating tray heats the metal to 1300 degrees, where the metal is then forged into a bar, which is horizontal, this bar, is then semi cut, (for the lack of a better word) into half, folded, hammered, folded in half, till the Smith decides that the "Shingane" is ready.

Post this the "Kawagane" starts getting shape in a similar mannner to the above, only in this case the the Folding and Hammering process can vary for 8-16 folds, again depending on the smith.

Once the "Kawagene" horizontal bar is ready, it is then shaped out into a Hollow 3 sided "U" shaped tube, so that the "Shingane" can be inserted into the same. Once the 2 pieces are welded together, the process of making the blade begins. The temperature of the metal at the time of forging is 900-700 degrees approx.

The blade now begins to take shape, at the first stage we get the Blank called "Sunobe" the Sunobe, then using finer tools is cut to provided the desired shape of the blade. The first step is getting the point, so a diagnoal cut is made and the "Kissaki" or point is made as required.

Post this the blade is heated, and the cutting edge is hammered out on the "Kawagane" at roughly 700 degrees, once this is done, the sword which till this time is "straight" and does not carry the curve we are all so aware about in Samurai Swords, the sword is roughly finished using a square file, for which I dont remember the name :)

If the file does not do the Job a coarse Japanese Whetstone is used sparingly.

It is at the next stage that the blade, transcends to a work of art. The application of the clay is perhaps one of the most delicate tasks, and the results in the eventual pattern of the blade, the clay is mixed with crushed charcoal and whetstone (In what measure, I have still never found out)

Post this the blade is ready for Heating, this is the stage where the True Master smiths emerge, the heating and Quenching called "Yaki-ire" is done mostly at night by master smiths. The reason for this is, that they need to study the colour of the flame! The forge temperatures at the time of the heating is generally at 700 degrees odd, however the master smith is more interested in the colour of the fire and the blade! It is delicate balance and the right time for removing the blade from the forge and tempering it in water "yaki-ire" is a decision the master smith takes, based on a life time of experience. Apprentices can practice for several years, before they can master this part of sword making.

All the effort that has gone in so far in making the blade can be turned to dust, if the blade is not taken out at the right time and tempered.

Once the smith approves the colour, the sword is taken out and plunged into the water for tempering, it is here that the shape of the sword changes from straight to curve. The clay captures the heat and as the soft and hard steel sets at different temperatures, the sword tips slightly down, then up forming the Curve of the sword.

Once the tempered blade is taken out of the water is checked for imperfections, and slight imperfections, are corrected. The smith may or may not give it a rough polish, before sending it out to the Master Polisher.

The thing to understand about making a "Shinken" is that it is truly a collaborative effort between different masters, all well versed in their art.

Once the Blade arrives at the master polisher, he can take several weeks to finish the polish. The work of the Master Polisher is a true work of art, as he is the one who provides the aesthetic finish to the blade, which all "Shinken" are so famous for. He will not only polish the blades, but will hone the blade as well.

Polishing consists of 2 parts, foundation called "Shitagi-togi" and finishing called "Shiage-Togi" . In order to perform "Shitagi-togi" the polisher sits crouched on his knee, and uses the most coarse Japanese Whetstones, to start the foundation, the foundation stones are generally quiet large, but handy, and they prepare the sword for the next stage. This stage requires that they take away just enough steel and not too much, which will affect the finishing.

In the "Shiage-Togi" process, the polisher again changes his stance, and might do so several times during the finishing. Some smith, keep one knee down and one knee up, and the start polishing the stones from back to front. This is done to avoid cutting oneself on the sharp blades, the size of the whetstone keeps going smaller and smaller till at the end, they are mere wafers, which the smith are using to polish using their thumbs and fingers.

It is at this stage also that the Hamon is highlighted, Iron Oxide mixed with "Nugui" Oil is applied to the blade, depending on the type of finish required, such as Aesthetically bright! or a more Matted down finish different combinations of oils are used. The whole polish process is extensive, and complicated, and I cannot hope to capture the magnanimity of the process in a few lines!! So please pardon any slips!!

Post this the blade is sent to the scabbard maker the Saya, Koshiare are added in the process and finally, the Habaki, Tsuba and finally to Tsukamaki which is the wrapping of the handle and the insertion of the Menuki in the grip. Each process is precise, however these are areas, I will ask other members to throw some light on, as my understanding is limited of these subjects.

Regards,
Pistolero
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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by supershaji » Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:16 pm

amazing post Moin miya!

Its no wonder that you recognised 'the White Mughals' book by it's smell.
chitty-vitty, bang-shang

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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by airgun_novice » Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:55 pm

Dear pistelero, Thank you for the info on katana/ dai-katana making. regs, A.

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Re: Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

Post by perfectionist1 » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:11 pm

Dear Moin,

Great...bravo...you are a person a kind of which is hard to find, very dedicated and constantly following your hobby.

I myself wanted to get 2 swords made for myself - one Khilij and other Shamshir, but from one year reluctant, dont know if it will be legal to keep it with me, that is why never went ahead and tried.

I even have taken out a dimensional design of Khilij of 36" blade.

In Nov'12 I went to my approx. 300 years old house and found out one Talwar kind of sword, the tip of which was rusted and melted by 3-4 inches, which cleaned it up, is looking good. The sword must have belonged to my ancestors, left it there only.

Attaching its pic for your review and comments, please....

Once again cheers....
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