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First Air Rifle

All posts related to air-guns (air-rifles, airsoft, air-pistols, air-guns etc.).
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brihacharan
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Re: First Air Rifle

Postby brihacharan » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:32 pm

[quote="kiran2608"
Hi Briha Ji and members,

But I still have my own doubts :roll: :roll: In the picture, I could see that the karbin barrel is bulged in the tip. So do we need to remove that bulge and fix the front sight and then the rear sight?
I am still confused.
According to wiki, karbins were made in 1850's or some where before or after for the soldiers on horsebacks for immediate access. And those Karbins are less powerful and less accurate compared to the normal guns.
I hope precihole Karbins are not same:-)
Regards,
KD[/quote]

Hi Kiran,
> As Precihole confirmed - Karbin's short barrel does not affect velocity...
> The bulge in the tip you mention is the Muzzle Brake - It can be removed to fix 'normal front sight'...
> For your information the muzzle break is provided to ease the cocking effort & also render a balance to the air rifle....
> Can't understand why you had to refer to 'wiki' for information on 'Karbin' - as we are concerned with air rifles & not firearms....Those 1850 models referred to firearms 'Carbines' which had short barrels to help soldiers on horse-backs to shoot with ease - as long barrels would make it inconvenient to raise the rifle while galloping to shoot :roll:
> Also Karbins having less power etc. etc. & less accurate than normal air guns does not arise... as precihole makes them to conform to the forensic requirement of a maximum 12 foot-pound output.
> FINALLY - please put your confusion to rest - Karbin is specially designed to suit personal preferences of shooters who prefer short barrels... that's all - They are as good as "Normal Air-Guns" in terms of velocity & accuracy :D
> Hope all your queries are answered :lol:
Briha



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fantumfan2003
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Re: First Air Rifle

Postby fantumfan2003 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:22 pm

I strongly suggest you understand and memorise these safety rules before you even get the air rifle. Also get some basic tips on shooting for someone knowledgeable.

These rules are applicable to all types of guns.

No one pays attention to safety and training but they are of utmost importance to prevent mishaps of all kinds.

http://www.lakshyashooting.com/shoot_safe.htm

Rigid rules which must be followed:

1. Treat a gun with respect at all times - it is not a plaything.

2. Always point a gun 'down range' whether you are shooting, dry firing or aiming. 'Down range' means towards target / butt wall / sandbank or the corresponding area of the Firing point which is made of steel or sand to stop the bullets.

3. A gun must always be kept unloaded, except when you are actually firing it.

4. Even if someone tells you a gun is unloaded, always assume it is loaded, until you have yourself checked to make sure it is unloaded. Do not forget that all guns are to be treated as if they are loaded.

5. Even if you have yourself put down a gun on the table and picked it up two minutes later, open and make sure it is unloaded.

6. In the case of a pistol / rifle, always keep the bolt / block / slide open and in the case of a revolver, always keep the cylinder open, except when you are actually shooting.

7. No sooner a command for 'cease fire' or 'stop' is given, immediately unload your pistol / rifle, open the action, and place it on the table, barrel pointing down range. You may touch the firearm only after the command 'load' or 'commence fire' is given.

8. While loading, keep your finger outside the trigger guard. Finger may be placed on the 'trigger' only when you are ready to lift the arm for the shot.

9. Before touching anybody else's weapon, take his explicit permission to do so.

Additional points of safety

Eyes

With all ammunition, particularly Indian ammunition, you often get powder and shreds of lead flying in all directions. These can cause injury to the eyes. It is, therefore necessary, to wear glasses while shooting. Better to wash hands and eyes after every practice session to wash off traces of lead.

Ears

Pistol shots are extremely loud and dangerous to the ears. Prolonged exposure to pistol shots will cause progressive deafness. It is therefore necessary, to use ear protectors. These can be earplugs, ear valves or earmuffs.

System - lead.

All bullets and pellets are made of lead, which is a very soft and also a very poisonous metal. By merely rubbing a bullet you will get some lead on your hands. Lead is not only Toxic, it is also accumulative i.e. It accumulates in the system. Even small doses are highly dangerous over a period of time. Therefore, the following rules should be followed;

1. Always keep ammunition including pellets out of reach of children. Even though they may not swallow it, merely handling it or putting it in the mouth is dangerous.

2. Always wash your hands after handling ammunition.

System - lubricating oils.

In order to protect firearms against rust it is necessary to oil them after use. Most oils are harmful and not only that, they contain various chemical additives, which are also toxic. It is therefore, necessary to wash your hands with soap and water after handling weapons as a matter of precaution. Of course, the oils must also be kept out of reach of Children. Range rules.

1. Before occupying the lane, please sign the 'lane register' and pay the appropriate 'lane fees'. Occupy the lane, which may be allotted to you by the range staff, range Officer or any senior shooter.
2. Keep your club identity card and/or firearms license handy and show it to the range officer on duty when demanded.
3. Obey all commands of the range officer or senior shooter.
4. In case you are carrying any loaded and concealable firearm (revolver/pistol), it must be taken out from your person and/or bag only when 'commence fire' command is on, And that too only at the firing point/bay after it is allotted and occupied by you. You must unload it forthwith, observing all the rules strictly. You are not allowed to take out the loaded firearm from your person or bag during 'cease fire' and/or outside the firing point/bay allotted to you.
5. On hearing the command 'cease fire' or 'stop' you must unload your weapon, including magazine forthwith, and put it on the table in 'breach open' condition, barrel Pointing down range. All weapons must remain unloaded and not touched by anyone while 'cease fire' command is on.
6. Nobody is permitted to enter the ranges or move in the Lakshya shooting club premises with weapons in the waist and/or shoulder holsters which can be seen or are visible directly or indirectly, except law enforcing officers on duty. Nobody is permitted to move in any area of the range with nude handguns i.e. Handguns without a case that can be seen. All handguns must be kept in the case and can be taken out on the firing point only.
7. Members who are VIPs or VVIPs and are allotted gunmen are responsible to acquaint their gunmen with the safety and range rules. Barrels of all the carbines carried by such gunmen / bodyguards must be pointing up at all times.
8. Guests and family members are not permitted to shoot or enter your firing point/bay, unless specific permission has been obtained from the Lakshya shooting club office after completing necessary formalities.
9. You are totally responsible to acquaint your guests and family members who may accompany you, with all the safety and range rules. You will be liable for disciplinary Action in the case of breach of any of the safety or range rules by your guest or family members.

M.

Shrikar Sawant wrote:Thank you GNV sir I am going to buy the gun after a month as I have got my 11 board exams.from.tomorrow. so I'll buy the.gun after exam.and let you know.!!!!


As an example of overcoming adversity, Karoly Takacs has few peers. He was part of Hungary’s world champion pistol-shooting team in 1938, when an army grenade exploded, crippling his right hand. Ten years later, having taught himself to shoot with his left, he won two gold medals in the rapid-fire class.

Darr ke aage jeet hai

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kiran2608
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Re: First Air Rifle

Postby kiran2608 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:50 pm

Hi Kiran,
> As Precihole confirmed - Karbin's short barrel does not affect velocity...
> The bulge in the tip you mention is the Muzzle Brake - It can be removed to fix 'normal front sight'...
> For your information the muzzle break is provided to ease the cocking effort & also render a balance to the air rifle....
> Can't understand why you had to refer to 'wiki' for information on 'Karbin' - as we are concerned with air rifles & not firearms....Those 1850 models referred to firearms 'Carbines' which had short barrels to help soldiers on horse-backs to shoot with ease - as long barrels would make it inconvenient to raise the rifle while galloping to shoot :roll:
> Also Karbins having less power etc. etc. & less accurate than normal air guns does not arise... as precihole makes them to conform to the forensic requirement of a maximum 12 foot-pound output.
> FINALLY - please put your confusion to rest - Karbin is specially designed to suit personal preferences of shooters who prefer short barrels... that's all - They are as good as "Normal Air-Guns" in terms of velocity & accuracy :D
> Hope all your queries are answered :lol:
Briha[/quote]


Thanks a ton Briha sir:-) for bringing my confusions to rest. Even I agree that I should not have compared the karbins of AR with fire arms. Now I am very clear with karbins:-)

Now I request your suggestion, instead I demand your suggestion;-)

Should I go for .22 or .177 karbins?

My interest is always target shooting and not plinking:-)

More over I have never used or handled a rifle till date ( I mean in shooting range). In fact I have never handled air gun.

Request your suggestion:-)

Regards,

KD


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airgun_novice
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Re: First Air Rifle

Postby airgun_novice » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:19 pm

May I add to what Brihji's already mentioned - That shorter barrel length will also ensure less (though in terms of fraction of a second) lock time and thus greater accuracy than "normal" version. :-) But always remember, such high quality ARs will *always* out-shoot the shooters, in short, the workman may not be worthy of blaming his tools.

If anyone wants to shoot Karbin or Polaris or Pegasus or Club or Club Elite or N25 or N35 or anything inside a shooting range in India - it MUST be of .177 caliber. This has been pointed out N number of times and discussed ad nauseum on this forum.

Shrikar Sawant, didn't realise that Std XI exams also were conducted by the board these days. I presume you are from MH. Anyway, good luck. Most, if not all of your queries would have been answered by PH or Aimco; and yet in spite of several answers in this thread you did not mention efforts (communication) you undertook with either of them to get answers across. I also pointed out that you had PH dealers (as per their web site) even in interior parts of MH and yet it appears like you did not follow that lead. And now the exams. :-) So I wonder if you really were serious or merely having fun here. Anyway, hope you had a jolly good time. :cheers:

And in spite of all the Q&A, one must not overlook the safety factors associated with Airgun (or even the firearms) shooting. Ideally, the proper way to start *before* one goes for the "first air rifle" would be in a safety course at a range. If that's not readily available, then as fantumfan2003 has listed, rote the safety rules by heart and follow them thoroughly even at sub-conscious level. Regret to dampen your enthusiasm but that's the way the shooting fraternity and community works. More bad air is let out in a country like India by a freak accident than the good publicity created by 10 medals won by Indians at international events.

Good luck. Practice safe shooting. May your "dream air gun" come through at the earliest. ;-) :cheers:

regs
A.


==
O Shea (character): Guns make you nervous ?
Charles Bronson: Guns or the users ? Idiots with guns make me nervous.
(Death Wish V)

Shrikar Sawant
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Re: First Air Rifle

Postby Shrikar Sawant » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:49 am

Sorry airgun_novice its Xll board exam the spell correct function in my mobile changed it. But that's not the point. You said that I am not taking this seriously and doing it for fun. Let me make one thing clear that I am buying this gun from the money I have saved for last two.years. I live in RATNAGIRI, MAHARASHTRA, I have contacted all the dealers in my vicinity but none of them is ready to give me the.PH nx100 for less than 14k. The very big joke is that the gun shop owner in my town doesnt what type of gun percihole is. When I asked him how much would a ph cost he just kept staring at me he didn't even knew IHP rifles so the only option with me is aimco. Another big point is that I have to do all this "research" work undercover Becoz I am going to give a surprise to my parents. I just can't call the dealers and customer.service in front of my parents. I have to find moment when I am alone at home. So I think that you can now understand my situation. And the point of safety I have read all of it. And this is not the first time I am using an AR I have done a lot of shooting with my friends IHP .35 . So I know how to use an AR. There are no shooting clubs in my town. I think the nearest one would be Mumbai which is 375km from.my place so we just do general plinking or we print target shooting papers and set it up in our backyard. Ok I think this will satisfy you and please consider my situation. Today I have a board paper but still I am posting because I respect guns. So till 14 march I will be watching your posts undercover. So keep posting. And sorry for the inconvenience..........



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airgun_novice
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Re: First Air Rifle

Postby airgun_novice » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:59 am

Ah! In that case I stand corrected. :-) XII form top priority; don't lose focus from there. You can always follow the posts once you are done with the boards. Ratnagiri has 2 PH dealers. Contact MRA to see if there's any range there. If not, Kolhapur has a couple of fine ranges and so does Raigad. BTW, where in Ratnagiri are you from ? Have traveled there quite a bit myself. Grandparents from round there. Anyway best luck for the XII board exams. :cheers:



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brihacharan
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Re: First Air Rifle

Postby brihacharan » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:14 am

Kiran wrote:
Thanks a ton Briha sir:-) for bringing my confusions to rest. Even I agree that I should not have compared the karbins of AR with fire arms. Now I am very clear with karbins:-)
Now I request your suggestion, instead I demand your suggestion;-)
Should I go for .22 or .177 karbins? My interest is always target shooting and not plinking:-)
More over I have never used or handled a rifle till date ( I mean in shooting range). In fact I have never handled air gun.
Request your suggestion:-)
Regards,
KD

Hi Kiran,
(Should I go for .22 or .177 karbins?)
> Since your primary interest is "Target Shooting" I recommend you go in for Karbin 0.177 cal
> This model is well balanced & accurate...
> At a later stage you may mount a "Peep Sight" - which most target shooters prefer....
> Finally get yourself familiar with "Safety Rules & Procedures" & practice them every time you handle the Karbin...
> You may go through this link - will be of great help > Shooter's Guide to Air Rifle Safety - Civilian Marksmanship Program www.odcmp.com/comm/publications/.../JrS ... Safety.pdf
> Good Luck - Happy Shooting :D
Briha
Last edited by brihacharan on Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.



fantumfan2003
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Re: First Air Rifle

Postby fantumfan2003 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:17 am

My dear Shrikar,

The right thing for you is to stay off the computer and focus only on your 12th exams.
The air rifle can wait. If you do well in your exams, I might even help you out with the procurement. But you need to focus on your exams for that and on nothing else.

M.

Shrikar Sawant wrote:Sorry airgun_novice its Xll board exam the spell correct function in my mobile changed it. But that's not the point. You said that I am not taking this seriously and doing it for fun. Let me make one thing clear that I am buying this gun from the money I have saved for last two.years. I live in RATNAGIRI, MAHARASHTRA, I have contacted all the dealers in my vicinity but none of them is ready to give me the.PH nx100 for less than 14k. The very big joke is that the gun shop owner in my town doesnt what type of gun percihole is. When I asked him how much would a ph cost he just kept staring at me he didn't even knew IHP rifles so the only option with me is aimco. Another big point is that I have to do all this "research" work undercover Becoz I am going to give a surprise to my parents. I just can't call the dealers and customer.service in front of my parents. I have to find moment when I am alone at home. So I think that you can now understand my situation. And the point of safety I have read all of it. And this is not the first time I am using an AR I have done a lot of shooting with my friends IHP .35 . So I know how to use an AR. There are no shooting clubs in my town. I think the nearest one would be Mumbai which is 375km from.my place so we just do general plinking or we print target shooting papers and set it up in our backyard. Ok I think this will satisfy you and please consider my situation. Today I have a board paper but still I am posting because I respect guns. So till 14 march I will be watching your posts undercover. So keep posting. And sorry for the inconvenience..........


As an example of overcoming adversity, Karoly Takacs has few peers. He was part of Hungary’s world champion pistol-shooting team in 1938, when an army grenade exploded, crippling his right hand. Ten years later, having taught himself to shoot with his left, he won two gold medals in the rapid-fire class.

Darr ke aage jeet hai

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kiran2608
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First Air Rifle

Postby kiran2608 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:55 pm

Hi Kiran,
(Should I go for .22 or .177 karbins?)
> Since your primary interest is "Target Shooting" I recommend you go in for Karbin 0.177 cal
> This model is well balanced & accurate...
> At a later stage you may mount a "Peep Sight" - which most target shooters prefer....
> Finally get yourself familiar with "Safety Rules & Procedures" & practice them every time you handle the Karbin...
> You may go through this link - will be of great help > Shooter's Guide to Air Rifle Safety - Civilian Marksmanship Program http://www.odcmp.com/comm/publications/ ... Safety.pdf
> Good Luck - Happy Shooting :D
Briha[/quote]

Hi Briha sir,

I will follow your points exactly.

In fact today I have visited oliveplanet store in Bangalore. But they don't have karbins in Polaris. They only have karbins in scorpius. So I think I have to get it from amico.

Secondly I could not find any major difference in barrel length too. Hardly some two inches. But I still love the looks of karbin with rust proof coating:-)

Last and most important thing. I was a shooting club member in Denmark for almost one year and I was practicing with fire arms ( pistol). I am used to practice the safety rules and I promise you all that I follow the same even here religiously.

All this while I was buying the pistols( co2 and blow back) without my parents knowledge. As they are hand guns I could manage to hide them. But now it's rifle. I have to take proper approvals from my parents;-)

Once again thanks so much Briha sir. By the way I liked your customized buck blades:-)

Regards,
KD


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arni_genius
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Re: First Air Rifle

Postby arni_genius » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:51 pm

airgun_novice wrote:May I add to what Brihji's already mentioned - That shorter barrel length will also ensure less (though in terms of fraction of a second) lock time and thus greater accuracy than "normal" version. :-) But always remember, such high quality ARs will *always* out-shoot the shooters, in short, the workman may not be worthy of blaming his tools.


Hi,
Apart from lock time, I believe the karbin barrel will have lesser vibrations (amplitude of the vibration) and also will vibrate for a shorter time than the longer barrel. (Because time period of vibrations is directly proportional to length of vibrating body) I think groups wille be smaller for a karbin at longer range. But all this I say from theory, I am still a noob shooter; I have not grouped at long/medium ranges due to lack of space currently.

I have been shooting PH NX long barrel, currently thinking of swapping it with a karbin one.

Regards,
Arnab



prashantjha19
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Re: First Air Rifle

Postby prashantjha19 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:21 pm

arni_genius wrote:
airgun_novice wrote:May I add to what Brihji's already mentioned - That shorter barrel length will also ensure less (though in terms of fraction of a second) lock time and thus greater accuracy than "normal" version. :-) But always remember, such high quality ARs will *always* out-shoot the shooters, in short, the workman may not be worthy of blaming his tools.


Hi,
Apart from lock time, I believe the karbin barrel will have lesser vibrations (amplitude of the vibration) and also will vibrate for a shorter time than the longer barrel. (Because time period of vibrations is directly proportional to length of vibrating body) I think groups wille be smaller for a karbin at longer range. But all this I say from theory, I am still a noob shooter; I have not grouped at long/medium ranges due to lack of space currently.

I have been shooting PH NX long barrel, currently thinking of swapping it with a karbin one.

Regards,
Arnab


Dear Arnab,

I had glanced through this old thread sometime back, pondered intervening, but let it off as it was too old a thread.
Now that you have chipped in, here are things we all need to sit up and take note of (wrt this subject matter).

First, lets not get confused and include the barrel time of a pellet's travel as part of the lock time. At the most, as far as springers are concerned, this travel can be a part of the overall shot cycle, but certainly not lock time (and BTW, the jury is still out on whether the term applies to springers at all!).

Second, while your argument theoretically is plausible, a pistol (by the same accord) should have the least of the vibe/amplitude, and should therefore be vastly accurate. The size differential with a standard AR should cleanly neutralize the one-hand-operation limitation that pistols suffer with as far as attaining rifle-like accuracy is concerned.
However, that is not the case!!

Vibration accompanying a springer shot cycle is a factor mostly confined to its action, and barely the barrel. Now, pls remember here, that shot cycle vibes are different from disturbances /movements caused by recoil displacement (which does affect the barrel seriously).

Third, barrel size as a factor -to both energy efficiency and accuracy-, do not apply the same way to PCPs and springers.
For a PCP, longer barrels (within reason of course) are directly proportional to energy efficiency /output. Look at the Precihole PCP models - Club vis-a-vis the three times powerful Achilles. By your argument, the former (being a 7.5 J target shooter) should have the smaller barrel of the two. But that is not the case. It has the longer of the two barrels and is heavier by a whooping 1.2 KGs. And yet, it is designed as a target shooter, i.e. potentially more accurate and stable. Put the same barrel on the 20J Achilles, and you would likely enhance its energy efficiency (all other things same) by a substantial proportion....into the extra legal zone!

In springers though, this is seldom so straight forward. Here, the piston stroke and the pellet's acceleration profile (determined by hardness, start pressure, fit in breech and weight) have been found to be the two most crucial factors to determining a suitable length of barrel. The late Cardew's finding that pellets accelerate only in the first eight inches of the barrel is no more valid given how the profiles of today's ARs (as well as pellet designs) have changed in later years. In efficient adult size springers of today, the acceleration is found to extend to much farther lengths, and corresponds with the longer cylinder pulse esp of long stroke ARs.

In fact, some gifted tuners have discovered in these last few years that brands like HW and AA may have kept barrels of their 77s and TX200 (esp the Hull Cartridge imports in UK) shorter on purpose - to check ME. Experiments in extending the 13in barrel to 16in have yielded supremely efficient energy output (in the range of 50%!!) and stable and quiet behaviour.

Having said that, output from the Precihole's powerplant is a tamed one; and hence the karbin length does not affect (read check or impede) pellet acceleration, and hence potential ME as compared to its full length counterpart stands unaffected.
Sorry about the long post, but I just couldn't restrain from chipping in to put right some of what I felt might lead us into inaccurate assumptions, etc.
Best regards,
Prashant



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Re: First Air Rifle

Postby narach93 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:03 am

Spendid! Prashantji. Learn a lot from this post.
Regds




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