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The killing of Cecil, the beloved lion!

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fencehen
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Re: The killing of Cecil, the beloved lion!

Postby fencehen » Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:08 pm

@SMJ: Since you are interested in this topic and have also read about some of the aspects to some extent, I recommend doing this excellent course:

https://www.hunter-ed.com/

Select any state and you should be able to quickly go through the topics. This course will give you a good overview of the conservation model practiced in North America. You can also go to specific chapters that cover hunting with a bow in detail. You should be able to cover it quickly in a days time. Once you cover the course material, you will have a good framework to debate this issue in you mind.



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Rajat
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Re: The killing of Cecil, the beloved lion!

Postby Rajat » Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:37 pm

"What Happened in the Harrowing Hours Before Cecil the Lion Was Killed"

https://gma.yahoo.com/happened-harrowin ... ries.html#

Added in 43 minutes 52 seconds:
10-dallas-safari-hunters-670.jpg


Kerry Krottinger: Probably one of the biggest conservators and wild life lover. Whole heartedly supports the cause it seems.

Pic source: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2015/ ... rs-670.jpg
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prashantsingh
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Re: The killing of Cecil, the beloved lion!

Postby prashantsingh » Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:46 pm

There are more African lions in the wild than there are wild tigers in Asia.
I wish we Indians had made a similar hue and cry a few years ago when we lost our tigers in two beautiful tiger habitats Sariska and Panna.


Frankly I am not bothered about a lion being hunted down in Africa.
I have seen their conservation efforts. Even the Masai Mara has an area where no hunting is allowed and surrounding private game reserves where hunting takes place. These private hunting reserves act as a buffer and prevent poachers from entering the core area



ngrewal
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Re: The killing of Cecil, the beloved lion!

Postby ngrewal » Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:46 pm

Doctor should have insisted and followed hunting ethics taught in USA and followed no bait hunting and using light etc to hunt in dark? He could have stayed away from rogue nation like Zimbabwe and gone to main line places. Legal hunting supports conservation and sustains wildlife



winnie_the_pooh
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Re: The killing of Cecil, the beloved lion!

Postby winnie_the_pooh » Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:58 am

Do all animals in African jungles have names?


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences.

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xl_target
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Re: The killing of Cecil, the beloved lion!

Postby xl_target » Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:27 am

ngrewal wrote:Doctor should have insisted and followed hunting ethics taught in USA and followed no bait hunting and using light etc to hunt in dark? He could have stayed away from rogue nation like Zimbabwe and gone to main line places. Legal hunting supports conservation and sustains wildlife

Navi,
I'm not so sure but "no bait hunting" and "no hunting after dark with lights" are rules used in most US states. However, Bear baiting is allowed in some states and lights are allowed for coon hunting after dark in other states. Are these forbidden in Zimbabwe? When you hunt in another country/locality, you must follow their game laws. That is why you hire a guide service and you rely on them to make sure you follow the rules. If anyone is culpable here, it is the guide. He is the one who is supposed to make sure that the hunter has a safe and fulfilling hunt. He is the one who makes sure that the hunter is hunting in the correct place and he is the one who tells the hunter which animal to shoot.

In fact, in many places, big cats are routinely hunted over bait. Zimbabwe is a mainline, popular and legal hunting and safari destination.
As far as shooting Cecil, I'm afraid one lion pretty much looks like another to most people. I sure couldn't tell couldn't tell one from another, especially in the dark, with a spotlight. I've only seen one photo of Cecil with his collar showing. In most of the other photos, his mane covers the collar. Besides that, it is not illegal to hunt and shoot a collared animal, in the USA (and I gather it is not illegal in Africa either).

Most of the news reports are a bunch of hooey. The "what happened in the hours before Cecil the Lion was killed" is a prime example of the. Here we have quoted statements of the actions of hunter and guide by a guy who himself admits that he wasn't there. He admits he didn't learn of the death of the lion till days after. Yet his statements are being presented as fact by a totally irresponsible (and should I say, ignorant?) press account. Unfortunately many people can't distinguish between fact and conjecture and will believe the "facts" presented in that account.


“Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense” — Winston Churchill, Oct 29, 1941

Oggie
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Re: The killing of Cecil, the beloved lion!

Postby Oggie » Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:52 am

"On another note, I don't understand the people who condone hunting of some animals and not others. Is a Wild boar's life more important than a big cat's? Why is it OK to hunt one but not the other? Are we guilty of saying; "you're OK if you hunt what I hunt"? "You're an ass if you hunt what I don't hunt"?
I'm not trying to call anyone out, I'm just genuinely mystified by the logic behind those statements.
If you hunt at all, doesn't it smack of hypocrisy to condemn other hunters? "

Hi Xl,

Love It but had to challenge your thoughts on this comment ! The debate is on....

I'm surprised that you don't understand this Xl - Throughout our lives we are regularly exposed to codes. To prescribe that "if you hunt then in that case all animals are fair game" is a myopic view and (respectfully) almost sanctimonious (in a reverse manner!) in my opinion.

To illustrate that further with an example of a similar generalist view to elaborate on the all life should mean the same argument - If that should really be the code then why not eat domesticated cats and dogs ? -

After all if one can domesticate chicken and cows for food then why not cats and dogs ? Now I do know that in some countries that may be on the menu but most of the world would see it as an aberration rather than the norm.

The point I'm trying to make is that a one brush paints it all perspective is not applicable here.The key factor here is opinion. These are bound to vary and in my opinion and again I stress it's my opinion that the hunting of predators is not my cup of tea.

In my case it's not about "You're an ass if you hunt what I don't hunt ?" but more about I'd rather hunt deer ! What is not white does not necessarily need to be black ! I hunt game that I enjoy hunting. I watch animals that I enjoy watching. There's a line in my mind that I won't cross for my reasons. I won't try and draw that line for others and I certainly won't let anyone play with my line. That line may or may not exist in other's minds and that's OK. I'm not here to judge what one can or can't hunt unless of course it's illegal ! I'm not here to draw lines for others. I'm here to enjoy what I do and will continue to do so.

Here...my 2 cents worth !

Cheers,

Oggie



prashantsingh
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Re: The killing of Cecil, the beloved lion!

Postby prashantsingh » Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:51 pm

My personal experience with the media has not been good.
Infact it has been horrible. Except for few. Most of them write what they want people to read. So most of the reports I am reading about this lion. I am not taking everyword seriously.
Those who have gone through my FRI maneater hunt would know how I had a problem with a particular reporter of a famous national news paper when she labelled an innocent leopard as a maneater and questioned its relocation.
This time she was kind enough.....or probably careful enough not to write about the Devprayag maneater.
The Devprayag maneater was covered by two news papers whose reporters spoke to me on phone. One of them reported "Villagers say leopard killed was not a maneater." I called her up the next day and asked her "If the villagers are such experts. Why do they have to call us from hundreds of kilometers away. They should identify and shoot the maneater themselves." She had no answer for it.

Similarly "The lion was beheaded and skinned" makes the first stage of taxidermy sounds like an act of terrorism.



ngrewal
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Re: The killing of Cecil, the beloved lion!

Postby ngrewal » Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:10 pm

Winnie the Pooh always trust you to poo paah all the drama behind one lion and question absurdity behind all this and whether all lions have names...
xL
Agree some states and rules allow baiting but question is about fair game hunting ethics especially bow cross hunters who believe that they stalk and get close to their prey hence fair game! So my grouse I believe bow arrow is too painful kill gun does a better job. Well everyone to their own also fun is in the hunt stalking not whether you get it or not. How many hunters come back empty handed from Alaska etc?
Zimbabwe is a rogue nation they destroyed their economy and now to parshant point their media is harking this story for nefarious purposes. Would some one want to hunt in Iran or such borderline nations when better options are available. Then I am a city sleeker never went out to hunt this dude is being dragged around ,
Best



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Hammerhead
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Re: The killing of Cecil, the beloved lion!

Postby Hammerhead » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:42 am

http://www.scout.com/story/1598477-lion ... be-charged



Minnesota Dentist Who Killed Cecil the Lion Won't be Charged
Patrick Carone

3:54 PM
Cecil the Lion's killer won't face charges, despite the public up-ROAR.

Walter Palmer, the Minnesota dentist and big-game hunter who killed Cecil the Lion while on a July hunting expedition, won't face charges in the beloved big cat's death, a Zimbabwean minister said Monday. There has already been ample publicity surrounding the lion's death, said the country's minister of environment, water and climate, Opa Muchinguri. "If you talk to him, tell him that tourists are welcome here," she said. "No hunting, though." Palmer and his family faced threats and saw worldwide protests unfold, including demonstrations outside his Bloomington office after the Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force reported that Cecil was lured out of Hwange National Park and shot with a compound bow.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So there;s more of the " Run for the hills, sky is falling"

Zimbabwe parks official: 5 arrested for killing 11 elephants with cyanide

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

FIRST POSTED: WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 07, 2015 02:43 PM EDT | UPDATED: WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 07, 2015 03:01 PM EDT

Fourteen elephants were poisoned by cyanide in Zimbabwe in three separate incidents, two years after poachers killed more than 200 elephants by poisoning, Zimbabwe’s National Parks and Wildlife Management Authority said Tuesday, Oct. 6, 2015. (AP Photo/Tsvangirayi Mukwazhi)


Suspected poachers kill 14 elephants with cyanide, says Zimbabwe
World Elephant Day highlights grim plight of majestic creatures

HARARE, Zimbabwe -- A Zimbabwean wildlife official says five people are in police custody and being questioned over the killing of 11 elephants poisoned by cyanide at Hwange National Park in the west of the country.

In addition to the elephants killed at Hwange park, three others were poisoned by cyanide near Kariba in northern Zimbabwe in the past two weeks.

National Parks and Wildlife Management Authority spokeswoman Caroline Washaya Moyo on Wednesday said in a statement all five suspects in the Hwange killings were resident in the national park's main camp. Moyo told The Associated Press by telephone that the suspects are not park employees but were staying with relatives.

She said no-one had been arrested for the poisoning of the three elephants near Kariba.


The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke

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essdee1972
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Re: The killing of Cecil, the beloved lion!

Postby essdee1972 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:21 pm

200 elephants killed by cyanide!!! And not a whisper on Facebook!! It seems a nice decent law-abiding guy doing things within the law is always a prime target for bleedin'-heart so-called wildlife lovers!


Cheers!

EssDee
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
In a polity, each citizen is to possess his own arms, which are not supplied or owned by the state.Aristotle

Get up, stand up, Stand up for your rights. Get up, stand up, Don't give up the fight.Bob Marley

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Safarigent
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Re: The killing of Cecil, the beloved lion!

Postby Safarigent » Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:25 pm

Zimbabwe says the dentist did no wrong....
Poor chaps who were up in arms against him have nothing to say anymore legally
Am glad for the dentist!


To Excellence through Diligence.

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kshitij
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Re: The killing of Cecil, the beloved lion!

Postby kshitij » Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:09 pm

SD,
I suppose the 200 elephants where killed quite some time back, now about 14 were killed/poached in two separate incidents. Atleast thats what i made from the news.


I am not anti hunting, not even close to it. But somehow the idea of killing any animal just for a trophy seems highly stupid to me. I can understand hunting for food, hunting nuisance animals and pests, even hunting cause there is a pressing need for population control but killing something just to hang a part of it on your wall is, for the lack of a better term, just stupid. People may strongly feel otherwise but this is how i feel.


Lock, Stock and Barrel.

TwoRivers
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Re: The killing of Cecil, the beloved lion!

Postby TwoRivers » Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:37 am

winnie_the_pooh wrote:Do all animals in African jungles have names?


Of course. Disney has the naming rights. And the names are trademarked.




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