Monster Mountain Lion

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shooter
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Re: Monster Mountain Lion

Post by shooter » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:21 pm

Moin. wrote:One dumb question.Does poaching happen in the US like it does in India XL. These huge funds from paid hunting has not been able to put a stop to poaching in Africa. So is it that only the game reserves prospers and are properly managed. What about the rest of the forests and wildlife in African countries.

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A quick answer.

Poaching happens everywhere; nowhere is it zero. A good system can only minimise poaching never eliminate completely.
As re: your african question. The National geographic Feb/march 2013 has a cover story re: elephant poaching for ivory.

It gives the numbers of elephants poached for ivory. You can easily see that countries with legal hunting have less (not zero) poaching. Countries with n hunting have a lot more poaching. This is national geographi saying. I had read this article in detail as I had planned to write about that article, not because of the poaching/hunting angle but because india was identified as a leading country consuming and demanding blood ivory (illegal ivory). Later thought against it as in my experience everybody gets defensive if such stuff is pointed out.

There is a reason WWF, IUCN all support hunting.
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Re: Monster Mountain Lion

Post by timmy » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:22 pm

Moin. wrote:One dumb question.Does poaching happen in the US like it does in India XL. These huge funds from paid hunting has not been able to put a stop to poaching in Africa. So is it that only the game reserves prospers and are properly managed. What about the rest of the forests and wildlife in African countries.

Thanks
Moin.
Moin: I have only had one experience, knowing a poacher. This man had a family and was out of work at different times (this was before I knew him), and he would go out and shoot a deer to feed his family occasionally. He did it by parking his car in the middle of an open park in the mountains, he said, but I am sure he had some special place on someone's ranch where there were no other hunters. Anyway, he would wait until they got close to his car (deer are curious critters, when they are not spooky from being hunted) and he'd pop one in the head with his .22 from close range. That way, he did not destroy meat and there wasn't a sound that would alert very many.

My boss in New Mexico told me of a man who was in a similar situation. This man had a Spanish name, but my boss said he was Native American. (This is not uncommon, for reasons too lengthy to go into -- I would need to give a New Mexico history lesson!) Anyway, my boss said that this man was always being tracked by the game wardens, but his Native American hunting and tracking skills prevented them from catching him. Once, he dabbed his trail with meat and strong chile powder, and my boss said that sniffing the tracking powder ruined the tracking dogs' noses, so they left him alone after that.

Montana had a reporting line for poachers -- I'm sure some folks were turned it on that line, knowing Montana. But in some closed communities, there probably was regular poaching, but that is only conjecture on my part.

The big deal out west was endangered game, like eagles. In this case, something would break on the news on occasion. Native Americans use eagle feathers in their ceremonies, and there may even be some provision for them to somehow harvest some eagles. This is usually true for walrus, whales, and salmon -- species that Native Americans have traditionally harvested have some provision in law for them to pursue their traditional lifestyle. But I think that there would be some who would poach eagles and sell the feathers to Native Americans, and sometimes these people would be caught.

The penalties for endangered species poaching would be quite stiff, because they are protected by federal law, where regular game like deer and elk are under state jurisdiction.

So to answer your question, from my perspective, there is poaching, but when it begins to affect endangered species populations, the enforcement is very thorough. Fish and Game departmental funding does come from licenses and tags, so I think it is correct to say that hunting does play a significant role. Not only that, but it also funds studies by universities and hires biologists who can give expert plans for a sound game management plan, whether for hunted game or protected game. I think that the environmental study part is, perhaps, the most important part of this and the enforcement is second, personally speaking.

Regarding Africa, I think what you have there are governments with a relatively high level of corruption (see http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2012/results/ ) and, perhaps more, governments that are influenced more by using the paid hunter monies for their economy, rather than plowing enough back into game protection and policing. The problem is like what we've said and read here about India: The government wardens have old SMLEs and maybe have shot them, while the goons have automatic weapons. These bands also seem to be much more organized and in larger groups that what one might hear about in the US, where a "gang" might be 3 or 4 hillbillies, rather than a group that resembles armed revolutionaries in temperament and armament.

My response to you is, therefore, that just paid hunting alone is not going to solve the problem. The solution requires a national and governmental will to protect and manage the game and hunting supplies money for that to happen, including proper scientific management and enforcement. Also, properly managed game becomes like "ecotourism" with many side businesses prospering. Once that happens, it becomes the concern of those businesses to see wildlife flourish, because if they do not, that impacts business income for many. In other words, the economy is changed so that following the law and business prosperity is aligned with what's best for wildlife and the ecology.
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Re: Monster Mountain Lion

Post by Skyman » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:35 pm

They hunt elephants with AK's.China is an even bigger consumer of Illegal Ivory and paws,teeth etc.
I would rather hit my target gently than miss hard.

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Re: Monster Mountain Lion

Post by TC » Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:40 pm

prashantsingh wrote:I respect your opinion bennedose.
But we can not deny the fact that hunting, in countries where it is practiced, contributes to wildlife conservation by bringing in the much needed funds .
Here is how we Indians see our forests.
Below is a snap of a wild boar competing with cattle for food. I have hundreds of similar snaps.

Infact this post and TC's comment have inspired me to write a new post on how we in India are raping our forests through all the other possible ways.
Thanks Prashant.
I hope you remember the special reports / pages on man animal conflict that I prepared for Hindustan Times and posted on some thread. Once you open the post I will contribute my bit.

Cheers
TC

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Re: Monster Mountain Lion

Post by Moin. » Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:39 am

shooter wrote:
Moin. wrote:One dumb question.Does poaching happen in the US like it does in India XL. These huge funds from paid hunting has not been able to put a stop to poaching in Africa. So is it that only the game reserves prospers and are properly managed. What about the rest of the forests and wildlife in African countries.

Thanks
Moin.
A quick answer.

Poaching happens everywhere; nowhere is it zero. A good system can only minimise poaching never eliminate completely.
As re: your african question. The National geographic Feb/march 2013 has a cover story re: elephant poaching for ivory.

It gives the numbers of elephants poached for ivory. You can easily see that countries with legal hunting have less (not zero) poaching. Countries with n hunting have a lot more poaching. This is national geographi saying. I had read this article in detail as I had planned to write about that article, not because of the poaching/hunting angle but because india was identified as a leading country consuming and demanding blood ivory (illegal ivory). Later thought against it as in my experience everybody gets defensive if such stuff is pointed out.

There is a reason WWF, IUCN all support hunting.
Thank you Shooter. Will try and look up the article if its available online. i thought the sale of ivory is banned in India. How come India is the biggest consumer of Blood Ivory. I personally have never quite understood hunting for sport. I mean hunting elephants or lions or leopards for sport and trophy hunting i.e what you cant eat or utilise. As far as the thrill of prey animals having an equal chance to kill you, how true is that I mean what chance does a lion have against 2 to 3 shooters with high powered rifles.How many hunters are really mauled or killed by lions or cape buffalos vs the tropies taken. I saw a few videos on youtube on lion charges during hunts and it is spine chilling......Sorry my personal opinion. But it is great that atleast this money is channelised for conservation effort and preservation of wildlife and forest land. If it was India this money would go to Babus pockets rather than being channelised for conservation of wildlife.

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Re: Monster Mountain Lion

Post by Moin. » Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:54 am

Regarding Africa, I think what you have there are governments with a relatively high level of corruption (see http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2012/results/ ) and, perhaps more, governments that are influenced more by using the paid hunter monies for their economy, rather than plowing enough back into game protection and policing. The problem is like what we've said and read here about India: The government wardens have old SMLEs and maybe have shot them, while the goons have automatic weapons. These bands also seem to be much more organized and in larger groups that what one might hear about in the US, where a "gang" might be 3 or 4 hillbillies, rather than a group that resembles armed revolutionaries in temperament and armament.

My response to you is, therefore, that just paid hunting alone is not going to solve the problem. The solution requires a national and governmental will to protect and manage the game and hunting supplies money for that to happen, including proper scientific management and enforcement. Also, properly managed game becomes like "ecotourism" with many side businesses prospering. Once that happens, it becomes the concern of those businesses to see wildlife flourish, because if they do not, that impacts business income for many. In other words, the economy is changed so that following the law and business prosperity is aligned with what's best for wildlife and the ecology.[/quote]
_________________________

Thank you Timmy for taking the time out for such a detailed reply. Your last paragaraph really provided the answer to my question. I wonder when our governments will learn to value and put a sincere effort to stop poaching and towards proper conservation of wildlife. HOW sad it is when a tiger is killed by poachers (the link posted by Prashantji).

I saw a documentary on Discovery or NGC sometime back where they showed Tigers and bears being bred specifically for the bones skins gall bladders and what not in China just like chickens or cattle.Heart wrenchin to see an animal on top of the food chain is such conditions....


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MOIN.
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Re: Monster Mountain Lion

Post by xl_target » Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:27 am

If it was India this money would go to Babus pockets rather than being channelised for conservation of wildlife.
One of the reasons that I would not advocate opening up general hunting in India at present.
It is almost too far gone for that.

As far as poaching goes, it varies from place to place. In Minnesota, if you are a regular poacher, especially on public lands, you are almost guaranteed to be caught. Because there is adequate funding to pay rangers, there are more than enough rangers who patrol their territories regularly to make poaching a risky proposition. I'm sure there is still poaching going on but it is on a very small scale.
Game animals are seen as the property of the Government and there are some individuals who are always ready to "stick it to the Man". Then there are some people for whom anything forbidden has some kind of allure. For most people the penalties are not worth it. One can, for a small fee, just purchase a license and hunt legally. Poaching is looked down upon and most people will report poachers.

As Tim points out, it is about the money. If you can make conservation lucrative, it will prosper. Conversely, if you make poaching lucrative, it will also prosper. Not only do you have to make the penalties for poaching so onerous, you also have to step up enforcement to make sure that poaching becomes a risky behavior. It is not just poaching that you have to discourage, you also have to discourage livestock from intruding into reserved forests. Lets forget corruption for a minute and just concentrate on pure conservation. If for example, you start confiscating any livestock found in a reserved forest, you might be able to reverse habitat loss. If you catch people denuding/felling trees in a reserve forest, you will have to prosecute them. Unfortunately, the poverty in rural India makes this an unwelcome business. It is unwelcome from both a political and humane standpoint. Most people in rural India don't have enough land to graze their cattle and they need firewood to cook their food. However, we can't forget corruption as this is one of the major factors that have contributed to the sorry state of Indian wildlife conservation today.

Shooter, you should go ahead and post articles even if you think they would be controversial. Most people here have a very high respect for you and your thoughts. Think of it as educating people. When people are aware of the true facts and not the feel-good, poorly researched crap that some organizations put out, they are more able to make good informed decisions.
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Re: Monster Mountain Lion

Post by essdee1972 » Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:28 am

Infact this post and TC's comment have inspired me to write a new post on how we in India are raping our forests through all the other possible ways.
Please do, Prashantji. I am sure it will be a great learning for us "city slickers".

With your first hand experience, I am sure you will provide a lot of ammo to us who find themselves outnumbered by weepy "why do you kill, you beastly savages" kinda people!
Cheers!

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Re: Monster Mountain Lion

Post by timmy » Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:56 am

@Moin: Regarding the idea of hunting, especially dangerous game, I think what captures the imagination of people are the tales told by Corbett in India and many of the olden African hunters, up to more modern folks like Robert Ruark and Peter Hathaway Capstick. If you have not seen the movie, The Ghost and the Darkness, I think it would be well worth your while.

Having said this, please don't take my comments to mean that I want to convince you or convert you to the pro-hunting point of view. You seem to have formed your viewpoint on the subject, and I respect that. Hunting animals under whatever code or protocol is something that some will enjoy and others will not, and regarding our polite exchanges on the subject, I'm content to leave it there.

@XL: The poverty in some places can be a significant issue. I will note that this can be brought up as an arguing point, rather than as a data point (aka fact), but in the cases where poverty really does exist, there is not much one can do to de-incent someone who is barely at the subsistence level from engaging in something that has the promise of keeping himself afloat.

The problem and danger comes along when such people engage in this sort of behavior for decades and generations. Lawbreaking and even violence becomes an accepted way of life and bringing such folks into the fold of peaceful and productive society becomes a real challenge.

That's another reason, besides ecology, why it is important to take measures to eliminate the situation and get on with a prosperity program for the population, the wildlife, and the forests and grasslands. As you've argued so eloquently, accomplishing all of this needn't be a zero-sum game -- there are solutions that have worked elsewhere.

Granted, one may not be able to lift conservation programs and impose them into India without modification. This is no excuse for not studying other approaches and drawing up plans to deal with these problems. Simply giving in to inertia and the status quo will not benefit anyone or anything in the long run, and I think we are all united on the premise that the situation begs to be changed.
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Re: Monster Mountain Lion

Post by Skyman » Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:42 pm

People tell such tales when they shoot animals from a distance.Let them hunt properly with a spear if they want a thrill.....
I would rather hit my target gently than miss hard.

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Re: Monster Mountain Lion

Post by timmy » Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:14 pm

In your experience, skyman, what is the difference between hunting animals from long range, vs using a spear? I am trying to understand your point.
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Re: Monster Mountain Lion

Post by Skyman » Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:29 pm

Pardon my sarcasm, if people hunt for the thrill or the chase or whatever, sending a ball of lead very fast toward an animal is hardly thrilling.Hunting with a spear ( like the Maasai do ) is a far more thrilling activity.If that's what they want.
I would rather hit my target gently than miss hard.

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Re: Monster Mountain Lion

Post by timmy » Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:42 pm

Skyman, your statement pretends to know that whatever you think is thrilling or not is what everyone else thinks. That carries the flavor of the famous saying, "Why can't everyone else just be reasonable and do it my way!"

I might also add: Do you have experience in sending a ball of lead toward an animal on a hunt, and therefore know from experience that it is not thrilling?

And have you hunted animals with a spear to know from your own personal knowledge that that activity is, indeed, thrilling?
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Re: Monster Mountain Lion

Post by Skyman » Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:58 pm

Skyman, your statement pretends to know that whatever you think is thrilling or not is what everyone else thinks.

It is my opinion, laced with disgust at the pleasure people take in killing for the sake of it.I did not claim to be right.

I might also add: Do you have experience in sending a ball of lead toward an animal on a hunt, and therefore know from experience that it is not thrilling?

I would not, even if i could.Thrill is relative.I find none in such an activity.If some one does, i neither care nor judge.

And have you hunted animals with a spear to know from your own personal knowledge that that activity is, indeed, thrilling?

I did fight off a dog with a 5ish foot stick.Once the animal gets in your guard, you are done for.Yes, it was far more life threatening ( and thrilling ) to engage an animal 5-6 feet away knowing your life depends on not letting it get through, than to be away off and use a catapult or similar projectile firing weapon.And having friends for back up.
I would rather hit my target gently than miss hard.

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Re: Monster Mountain Lion

Post by timmy » Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:06 pm

Thank you, just wondering
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