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My african safari

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winnie_the_pooh
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Re: My african safari

Postby winnie_the_pooh » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:34 am

Rajat,

Why are you so worked about some one spending his hard earned money to do something that is legal in another continent in areas where wildlife is so plenty that hunting is a sustainable activity ?

In Africa,countries that have banned hunting (Kenya and Zimbawe come to mind) wild life has been decimated post-ban.

In India,despite every effort,wildlife has dwindled.There is a need to rethink the way wildlife is managed in the country and perhaps even look at re-starting hunting as way to bring in the money that is needed and to make people look at wildlife as a revenue earner and therefore worth preserving.Tourism did nothing to save the Tigers of Sariska.


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences.

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Bespoke
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Re: My african safari

Postby Bespoke » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:40 am

winnie_the_pooh wrote:Rajat,

In Africa,countries that have banned hunting (Kenya and Zimbawe come to mind) wild life has been decimated post-ban.

.


Hunting banned in Zimbabwe :shock:

No Hunting in Zimbabwe is not banned.


“Bravery is believing in yourself, and that thing nobody can teach you.”

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Re: My african safari

Postby kanwar76 » Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:25 pm

I have never objected to anybody's act of plucking or cutting a "baingan" I wonder why people are after my way to get my food :roll: :twisted:

-Inder


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Re: My african safari

Postby Rajat » Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:44 am

Hi Winnie,

You have got it wrong, I regret if I made it sound this way. I have nothing against Prashant for spending his money on the African safari. I love some of the pictures he has posted and can make out that he is passionate about nature.

Please go through my earlier posts on this topic, I did not mean to attack his posts. I am sure he understands and shares my concerns.

It is just that I dislike senseless killing, To clarify again I am not referring to Prashant's post. This is just a general comment.

You are right when you say that in India despite every effort wildlife has dwindled. We surely need to rethink and re plan a better way of managing it. Restarting hunting will not be the right step today. It will destroy everything. Specially here, with our enforcing agencies there simply will be no control. Tourism did nothing to save the tigers of Sariska but the same can be said for hunting earlier.

The need of the moment is to care for wildlife here in Indian and nurture it like a child and care for it and help it stand on its feet.

Once we are actively involved with this and accomplish it I am sure we would not want to hunt what we helped raise. All of us can do our bit. However small it may be still it will help.

Please take this in a positive way. Thanks.



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Re: My african safari

Postby winnie_the_pooh » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:52 am

Rajat,

Hunting is not 'senseless killing' as you put it. It is not mindless slaughter of animals,if this is what you mean. Also the carbon footprint of the number of tourists you would need to generate the same amount of money as would be spent by a single hunter is substantially more.Tourist trucks barging into forests create more pollution and disturb animals more than a single hunter on foot.The strain on resources is also less when revenue is generated through hunting

Rajat wrote:Restarting hunting will not be the right step today. It will destroy everything.


There is an old article by HS Pabla,the present Chief Conservator of Forests,MP about sustainable hunting.Certainly his work is more scientific than the sentimental outpouring of individuals opposed to hunting on ethical principles rather than practical concerns.

Ungulate numbers in some parts of the country is large enough to have them included in the list of animals that can be hunted to protect crops.Wild boar and Blue Bull can be legally hunted in some parts of the country.I am sure hunts can be sold for these animals to manage their numbers and also generate much needed revenue. Money that can be used to check poaching of our flora and fauna.

Rajat wrote:The need of the moment is to care for wildlife here in Indian and nurture it like a child and care for it and help it stand on its feet.


Where are you going to get the money to do that?


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences.

prashantsingh
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Re: My african safari

Postby prashantsingh » Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:08 am

I agree with winnie_the_pooh when he talks about the funds raised by a hunter when compared to those raised by tourists. Here is a classic example.
On my last trip to Rajaji a friend and I went early morning to the entry gate. There we were told that the gates would open at 6:30 a.m. We waited. By 6:15 there was a sudden surge of tourists (wearing the brightest of colours) and within 15 minutes at least seven commercial jeeps were topped up with all age groups, whose main concern was a "joy ride" into the jungles. They were quite a noisy lot and were well armed with large quanities of "breakfast" for the "joy ride /picknic". How many of them could identify a kaakar from a sambhar is my guess. When the gates opened I was horrified to see the scene. It was almost like the start of a car rally where the jeeps zoomed into the park and everyone on them was out to out run the other. The sight of thick saal jungles might have triggered fear in these big city dwellers (Fear of the king of the jungle ----The Tiger---thought there are few in this range and can hardly be spotted), and probably they wanted to get out as soon as possible. These guys made so much noise that I knew they would drive away all animals much before they actually reached the spot. I was in no hurry. So I stopped my friends Gypsy and waited for an hour. When we restarted the journey ....our patience was rewarded. We saw some nice herds of Cheetal, elephants , sambhar and wildboar including a Tiger kill.
On the way we also collected the litter this group had thrown all along the jungle road till the last morsel of "breakfast" was over.
I met the same group at lunch and asked them what they had seen.
"Nothing" was their answer. "These bloody jungles are empty."

I smiled and walked away........Thinking to myself -----"Junglee Kaun....jaanwar, ya ye log ?"


Rajat wrote:The need of the moment is to care for wildlife here in Indian and nurture it like a child and care for it and help it stand on its feet.


Where are you going to get the money to do that?[/quote]

I agree with Rajat here. I think there are enough funds for tiger conservation coming in from India and Abroad. The problem is How well these funds are being utilised. Whether they are being used by officials to attend lectures abroad or whether they are being used to prevent poaching and encroachment of forest land on ground. The Tiger is the apex predator. If one can put to proper use the funds for tiger conservation......one will automatically be able to save all the other animals in the Indian jungle.



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shooter
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Re: My african safari

Postby shooter » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:01 am

OOOOh seems like i missed out on the fun.
Sorry was away doing senseless killing.

Right.

Prashantsingh: thanks for writing on my behalf. Yes it is not an individual bag. As some are aware this has been stated in my networking site and also in the PM's i recieve. All shot on the wings in a drive.

HVJ: thanks for your respect. Man you embarrass me. You are a national figure. Winner of shivaji khel ratna. Man i am deeply indebted re: the (unjustified) esteem you hold me it.

Rajat: man i dunno where to start. actually i have been taken aback.

Its late and maybe i havent read things correctly but anyways ill try to clarify a few points:

Re: memberships of various organisations etc:
Its not to 'proove' anything but just to show you that when many small-time hunters with modest means pool their resources, it has been known to promote conservation. (read : practically proven, is happening as we speak and i am a small part of it).

When i said 'i dont know what you do...... it wasnt to discuss your annual income or monetary status but in reference to another article i have written. Also mentioned in the post.

but its good to know that you can afford to spend a lot more than me (or what i ever can). I dont dispute this as i am a man of humble means.

But where my money goes, it protects the environment. (not the destruction or decimation of wildlife as you said). While all your money (more that i ever can; which must amount to a bit) still isnt doing any good.

Name calling: well any meat eater who calls a hunter, esp someone who shoots for food a senseless killer is a hypocrite. I was merely stating a fact.

Regarding my posts: you make it sound as if i know nothing and copy and paste stuff etc etc.

This is a double bind. If i write from my experience (see basc people doing good for the environment and national rod agency for waterways etc, you write it doesnt prove anything.

If i cite articles, you say very cleverly (which shows a higher IQ which i respect) essentially its not my brains behind it.
So what do i write.

I have always tried to the best of my ability to write about facts and well researched articles or posts.
There is 4 types of evidence research and personal experience both on the list. (but not heresay) so i try to include both.

I dont know if you read the anti hunting article i posted and encouraged another anti hunter to post similar ones.
There is another pro-anti-hunting post i have written. Please read that before you make these statements.

I certainly dont take you for the tiger you rest my gun on. Or any other tiger, for that matter.

There has been a post where it has been agreed that i only take 'grewal' to be a tiger.

More than many people, i try not to do things that destroy the environment.

I have written several many posts about not buying plots of land houses etc for investment/status etc. (i do understand its easy for a poor bloke like me to follow and difficult for a rich bloke like you but nevertheless its true)
Try to use furniture made of sustainable timber. (encouraged others to do so in several posts).

written about how to save water. Encourage readers to give up water coolers.
I dont eat environmentally unsustainable meat products. I eat only ethically sourced animal products or eat what i shoot).Actually I cant spend as much money as you can so i come up with other ways more suited to money at my disposal.

Re: bragging. Rest assured i dont think you are bragging. Reading your post i think you are too intelligent to think having money is worth bragging about.

Consider this the beginning: re what? sounds like a warning to me. Or ailaan -e-jung. I hope you arent Kajor Mal Murari Lal from school still fighting with me.If no please ignore this sentence. If yes, for the last time, I DIDNT KNOW IT WAS YOUR SAMOSA.

BTW are you one of my internet friends? this is my dialouge "consider this the beginning".

I usually use in response to their comments of 'good bag' 'good shooting' 'how much do you wanna shoot' etc.

I do want to give you credit for one thing. You are right. Conservation, being one with nature food etc are secondary reasons.

I shoot/hunt etc because I like it. Actually i never use these excuses but i never had really thought about it.

but how right you are. I do it because i like it. Yes i like hunting.

Lastly I have a question for you (sorry to be OT)

When you said that you had been confronted by 3 mighty hunters and one shooter,
Iam i referred to in this sentence?
If no then whos the other shooter?
If yes then am i in the hunter category or shooter one?
If im hunter then who's shooter.
If im the shooter then why address me separately?

AM i just a hunter and not 'mighty' like the other 3? How do i come in the mighty category?

Or you dont consider me to be mighty at all.
This different form of address esp without an adjective also shows you might have been a bit more irritated by my replies than by the other ones'.
This supposition also holds true in the difference in tone of replies to the other 3 vis a vis me.

I dont understand this. for the first time, Ive irritated someone to that extent.

I am sleepy. Need to go through more of your posts or read a non-emotional post before i can write something about you or your background.
Till then, good bye and hoping to hear from you soon.

The emotional components make it a bit difficult for m to comment


You want more gun control? Use both hands!

God made man and God made woman, but Samuel Colt made them equal.

One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted. by Jose Gasset.

Rajat
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Re: My african safari

Postby Rajat » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:21 pm

Out of all that I have said in my last posts this is the only part you can dig up and comment on. Maybe I also irritated you so much. Maybe I hurt your feelings.

Sorry the party is over Shooter. You ARE late. Read above. The hatchet is buried and we are trying to smoke the peace pipe or maybe this is not your way.

OOOOh, I get it maybe it’s that you want to have the last word. Sorry, I do not wish to engage further with you on this matter. Not because I cannot debate further but because I prefer not to.

Because I do not want to get into slanging matches and bickering which have resulted earlier out of this topic. I can see what is coming. Typical examples can be seen right here:

“While all your money (more that i ever can; which must amount to a bit) still isnt doing any good” : As if you know.

“Name calling: well any meat eater who calls a hunter, esp someone who shoots for food a senseless killer is a hypocrite. I was merely stating a fact.” : It never was about shooting for food. Read what I said about the Intent of hunting etc.

“I have written several many posts about not buying plots of land houses etc for investment/status etc. (i do understand its easy for a poor bloke like me to follow and difficult for a rich bloke like you but nevertheless its true)” :
"Rich bloke" My contributions whatever they might be do not say or mean in any way that I claim to be rich or am rich. Can you define being rich? It is not about how much you have but about what you do with it that makes the difference.

My, My, you are good at interpretations. Aren’t you. Isnt it also very easy draw your interpretations and to turn around what the other person is saying and use it against him.

Or perhaps you would like to elaborate how I am an armchair Conservationist? Perhaps you know better. It was this that led to the above and now you have complaints.

“Try to use furniture made of sustainable timber. (encouraged others to do so in several posts)” : How to you know? May be I do this and perhaps promote it more than anyone else here. You still do not know what I do in my daily life. I hope this will not be related to money or riches now.

IQ levels :

“Or ailaan -e-jung. I hope you arent Kajor Mal Murari Lal from school still fighting with me.If no please ignore this sentence. If yes, for the last time, I DIDNT KNOW IT WAS YOUR SAMOSA.”

“When you said that you had been confronted by 3 mighty hunters and one shooter,
Iam i referred to in this sentence?
If no then whos the other shooter?
If yes then am i in the hunter category or shooter one?
If im hunter then who's shooter.
If im the shooter then why address me separately?
AM i just a hunter and not 'mighty' like the other 3? How do i come in the mighty category?
Or you dont consider me to be mighty at all.”

Typical entrance examination multiple choice question. Hope you find the answer yourself.

“Need to go through more of your posts or read a non-emotional post before I can write something about you or your background.
Till then, good bye and hoping to hear from you soon.”

Ok now it is going to a more personal level. Please do not do this. I am scared.

Please do, I hope you find a lot of stuff and make your day doing this.

Probably you may not find something like:

This is the reason why I left India.

Or in some places prostitution is legal what do you say about it now as compared to legal hunting?

Or something to the effect: You kill while Deworming too. If you do not hunt or kill then do not deworm.

Examples of brilliance I must say.

“also shows you might have been a bit more irritated by my replies than by the other ones'.
This supposition also holds true in the difference in tone of replies to the other 3 vis a vis me.”

True. Human nature, some I like some I do not. I trust my instincts

“I dont understand this. for the first time, Ive irritated someone to that extent.”

Please try to analyze this. It is necessary so you learn from it and do not repeat it. Its not about me and also this is not the first time for someone. Why only you each time and not anyone else. Was I not having a discussion with the others without offending them? Please think.

I am sorry for this post. I wrote it out of lack of self restraint. Things are getting personal here and are not what we started out with. It’s not about you and me here.

You have knowledge and you can debate but limit it to a debate and not an assault. Please try to make it less offensive and personal.

Over and out. I am not coming back to this conversation again.



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shooter
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Re: My african safari

Postby shooter » Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:01 pm

Need to go through more of your posts or read a non-emotional post before I can write something about you or your background.
Till then, good bye and hoping to hear from you soon.”

Ok now it is going to a more personal level. Please do not do this. I am scared.



And many others.

Dear Rajat you misunderstood me completely. please dont take this otherwise. This wasnt personal. Please read my earlier posts etc. a lot of times from a person's writings i have written up a 'report' (for the lack of a better word).

In which i try to guess place they are from , maybe profesion, hobies etc etc (hence the word background) I either write to them via pm or post it here. they then can tell me how accurate i was.

More often than not i am able to reasonably deduce accurately. This is a hobby and a lot of IFGans here know this and even give me feedback regarding this.

I replied late because i was out hunting and not because i wanted to have the last word.
Not going into any other detail for this reason. Just wanted to clear the misunderstanding about a few things you have said above. And i wasnt irritated by your post. In fact i had a cracking weekend and was in a good mood. Thats why i wanted to write a report on you but wasnt able to.

re the IQ: i actually meant it. it was not sarcasm>n same for the other things. if it has a positive adjective, i mean it, not being sarcastic.


You want more gun control? Use both hands!

God made man and God made woman, but Samuel Colt made them equal.

One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted. by Jose Gasset.

Bespoke
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Re: My african safari

Postby Bespoke » Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:03 pm

Rajat,

I might not agree with some of your statements ,but the way you have handled this thread is applaudable :cheers: the way you make you point in a very dignified and noble manner and I hope members on the forum would learn from this.


“Bravery is believing in yourself, and that thing nobody can teach you.”

prashantsingh
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Re: My african safari

Postby prashantsingh » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:50 pm

I think we are playing too much with words and in the mean time missing the point here.
I have seen numerous instances (like the one I have narrated above) where the "package tourist" who has limited knowledge of the wild behaves in a forest area. The money earned from this tourist is limited and he is there simply because the "picknic in the jungle" is a part of the package trip. This often happens in my areas (in and around Doon) where tourists coming for the Char Dham Yatra add the Rajaji National Park to their itinerary.

While I am not so sure how many such tourists really appreaciate their experience in the Wild.

On behalf of all ethical hunters I can say one thing with confidence.
While all tourists MAY Not be lovers of wildlife and their habitat.
ALL HUNTERS have a certain amount of love, knowledge and respect for the WILD.



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Re: My african safari

Postby hvj1 » Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:21 pm

ALL HUNTERS have a certain amount of love, knowledge and respect for the WILD.


Also kindly add - Former Hunters who have switched to 'Wildlife Photographers' (however amateur they may be..... :D )



Rajat
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Re: My african safari

Postby Rajat » Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:00 pm

Shooter,

Thanks for the explanation. My apologies for being rash. No hard feelings.

Sincerely,
Rajat



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Risala
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Re: My african safari

Postby Risala » Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:11 pm

One side trying to convince the other...this discussion is really going no where,the fact is that till the time hunting was allowed ie circa 89-90 the wild life flourished everything was in abundance....especially the Tiger.
To put it in perspective in 89-90 the Tiger population was around 4500....since the ban in 89-90 the same is down to 1400



prashantsingh
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Re: My african safari

Postby prashantsingh » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:12 pm

Sanjay,
Tiger hunting was banned much earlier than the 1990. Infact around 1971. In '72/'73 Project Tiger was launched. With an estimated 1400 tigers left in the wild today. We need a Project Tiger 2 to save the big cats. The human population has grown considerably in the past 40 years. Saving the tiger today is a much bigger challenge than what it was way back in the early 70's. China's demand in the illegal trade has added to the problem.It's now or never.




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