The comeback cartridge: 380 ACP

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mundaire
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The comeback cartridge: 380 ACP

Post by mundaire » Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:45 pm

The Comeback Cartridge: The .380 ACP

These .380s are the handgun choice for those looking to avoid trouble.

By Mark A. Keefe
I believe we are seeing a practical compromise on the side of persons committed to their own armed self-protection. While the new generation of .380s is far from the ideal of any combat pistolero knowingly heading into harm's way, they are ideal candidates to keep with you all day, every day. These .380s are not the handgun choice for those looking for trouble but rather the light and handy handgun of choice for those looking to avoid it.
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Re: The comeback cartridge: 380 ACP

Post by m24 » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:18 pm

Good article. Thanks for sharing, Abhijeet.

Regards
Jeff Cooper advocated four basic rules of gun safety:
1) All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3) Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.
4) Identify your target, and what is behind it.

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Re: The comeback cartridge: 380 ACP

Post by Vikram » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:10 pm

Interesting find,Abhijeet.Thanks for sharing.

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Re: The comeback cartridge: 380 ACP

Post by saahil » Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:24 pm

what an ironic situation,they take .380 acp inadequate for self defence and we are using .32 acp as the best possible option.thanks abhijeet for sharing this nice article.

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Re: The comeback cartridge: 380 ACP

Post by Vikram » Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:27 am

saahil wrote:what an ironic situation,they take .380 acp inadequate for self defence and we are using .32 acp as the best possible option.thanks abhijeet for sharing this nice article.
Saahil,

Not to lose heart.They are not pitching it as adequate SD round.Simply they are pitching for the portability of pocket sized .380 pistols.They are saying the one you carry is the best gun you have.By that yardstick, the .32 is alright.That until of course we get to lay our hands on more potent stuff.LOL.

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Re: The comeback cartridge: 380 ACP

Post by timmy » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:35 am

When one compares the ballistics of a .38 Special out of a snubby 2" barrel with that of the .380 ACP out of a similarly sized handgun, I don't think it looks to shabby. For years, people carried even less potent weapons around for personal protection. This is not to say that improvements are not possible, but I fail to see how the British Empire's military establishment can determine that the .38/200 is sufficient for a sidearm in combat, yet magazine writers have the expertise and authority to pronounce the ballistically similar .380 ACP insufficient for anything but a paperweight.

Of course, when one considers that the chief priority of one party in this is winning a war and the chief priority of the other party is to sell magazines, some perspective can be gained about the relative merits of each party's views...

It's pretty well known that some intelligence services have favored even the .22 Short as the cartridge of choice when conducting certain business. Of course, there are always those parties who will use such examples to prove that Africa's Big 5 can be reasonably taken with the .22 Short, and others will counter that the .22 Short is a foolish choice for anything.

i think that reasonable people, like those of us here, can assess the available data and reach conclusions that are able to guide our choices -- when we have choices.

I agree with the quote Abhijeet posted -- thanks!
“There is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know”

Harry S. Truman

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Re: The comeback cartridge: 380 ACP

Post by m24 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:36 pm

More: http://shootingillustrated.com/Guns/Sem ... 0guns.html

A review of 8 popular .380 pistols available. Nice read.
They represent a trend that developed very quickly in our fad-driven society, and only time will tell how popular they will be as the years roll on.
Regards
Jeff Cooper advocated four basic rules of gun safety:
1) All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3) Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.
4) Identify your target, and what is behind it.

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Re: The comeback cartridge: 380 ACP

Post by xl_target » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:35 pm

The only thing that I can add to this is that in my part of the US, .380 ammo has been very hard to come by last year.
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Re: The comeback cartridge: 380 ACP

Post by MoA » Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:05 am

xl_target wrote:The only thing that I can add to this is that in my part of the US, .380 ammo has been very hard to come by last year.
Not surprising given that there were at least 14 million guns sold in the US. For that was the number of NICS checks..
also why not just call the 9mm para the comeback?

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Re: The comeback cartridge: 380 ACP

Post by Sakobav » Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:20 pm

Budgeted best guy per my opinion was Taurus 738 TCP out of box had the least issues and was second cheapest gun. ..Some guns required lot of breaking in, trigger issues, sights were small, failure to chamber
Copied from American Rifleman

Concealed Carry: 21st Century Style

With the growing popularity of compact .380 semi-automatics, Wiley Clapp reviews nine of the compact pocket pistols that won’t be left at home.

http://www.americanrifleman.org/Article ... 2074&cid=4

The lure of the little gun is stronger than ever. The ranks of new CCW permit holders are growing steadily, and few choose a big gun for daily carry. Although weight and size invariably accompany a gun that is the best possible choice for defensive use, most people simply won’t make a habit of carrying a heavy, bulky gun.

It is obvious that smaller and lighter handguns may be a compromise of a sort, but they nonetheless place respectable power into more of the right hands. In this article we’ll look at the characteristics and performance of nine different guns that represent a new trend toward the lightest, smallest pistols chambered for the century-old .380 ACP cartridge. Most are new to the market, and all are examples of modern gunmakers responding to consumer demand.


But first let's look at the .380 ACP cartridge. Also known as the 9 mm Corto, 9 mm Kurz and 9x17 mm in Europe, the .380 was first used in an American pistol: the Pocket Model Colt of 1908. It is a short 9 mm round using bullets of 0.355 inches in diameter and 80 to 110 grains in weight at approximately 900 fps from the muzzle. In the United States, the cartridge has a long-standing association with some pretty classy semi-automatics from Colt, Remington and others. Many quality .380 pistols came from Europe in the first half of the century, either by import or in the duffle bags of G.I.s returning from our two European wars. After World War II, many other pistols came to America from Spain, Italy, Germany, Austria and France.

American ammunition companies load the .380 ACP with a variety of bullet types. Recoil of the .380 ACP is bearable for almost all CCW holders, and most guns for which it is chambered are easy to carry. For most of the lifetime of the .380, the guns that used it were simple blowback designs in which a combination of slide weight and recoil spring tension held the breech closed until the bullet left the muzzle and pressure dropped.

In the nine pistols reviewed here only two use this system, which requires a fairly heavy slide. The other seven are recoil-operated guns using some form of tilting barrel lockup. In short, these .380s use an operating system that is also found on similar pistols chambered in 9 mm Luger, .40 S&W and other cartridges. In this way, the .380 pistol manufacturer can reduce its weight and bulk. Several in the lineup are very compact pistols that weigh less than 10 ounces. This effectively fills the bill for shooters who demand light weight, compact dimensions and overall shootability in their CCW gun. If they can accept the limitations of the ammunition, it is an appealing concept.

The guns are—in alphabetical order—the Kahr P380, Kel-Tec P3AT, Magnum Research Micro, North American Arms Guardian, Rohrbaugh R380, Ruger LCP, SIG Sauer P238, Taurus 738 TCP and Walther PK380. There is a great deal of variety, with prices running from a low of $318 to a high of $1,150. Weights range from a low of 8.30 ounces to a high of 19.72 ounces.
http://www.americanrifleman.org/Gallery ... =46&id=275 - Gun Gallery
Following is a description of each gun in capsule form.

Shooting the Guns
Each pistol tested got an equal shot in the evaluation process. I fired the American Rifleman protocol of five consecutive, five-shot groups, plus a half-dozen or so magazines of informal shooting. That’s roughly 100 rounds per gun. These guns are intended for sudden crisis encounters at very close range. For that reason, I would not be too concerned about the performance of the guns at 25 yards. When I report that the average group size is more than 6 inches, that means the gun doesn’t compare very well to, say, a S&W Performance Center M1911. It is apples and oranges. I can tell you they will all cluster seven rounds into a group the size of your hand at 5 yards.

I am concerned about the number of cycling malfunctions, most commonly failures to feed and chamber. With one exception, every gun experienced these problems. Even here, we have to put matters in context. Kahr Arms, for example, includes the same manual with each of its pistols, regardless of size or chambering. That manual tells the buyer that he or she needs to run at least 200 rounds through the pistol before pressing it into service. That is coldly realistic advice that all of the other manufacturers would be well-advised to emulate.

With most of the guns, the greater number of glitches came when they were new out of the box. As the shooting wore on, the frequency of malfunctions declined. I would also suggest that when breaking in your chosen .380, you should make sure the gun is well-lubricated, perhaps even over-lubricated. Shoot until malfunctions stop.

This diverse lineup of .380 ACP pistols provides many choices to the defensive handgunner who wants a light, small, shootable handgun at a conservative price.

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Re: The comeback cartridge: 380 ACP

Post by m24 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:56 am

Source: http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l= ... tail&p=129
The 380 auto inhabits a valuable and useful place in our society, mostly because of the easily concealable, tiny pistols chambered for it. HOWEVER, because of the very limited size of the cartridge, it is plagued with limited power and therefore most of the existing ammo in 380 auto suffers from not being reliable as a man-stopper. We've studied and played with nearly all of the existing available 380 ammo and find it wanting as a reliable means of self defense, especially against a large, insane, drugged up/pain free, determined attacker.

Here's the problem. The current 380 auto frangible ammo delivers a large amount of surface trauma, but lacks serious penetration. For example, if you shot me or another sane man in the face with modern frangible 380 ammo, it would blow off a big portion of my cheek and send a few teeth down my throat, I would undoubtedly fall to the ground in shock and pain, but I would be very much alive and functional if I could get past the shock and pain as that frangible bullet would have stopped some where inside my face, never making it to my brain. However, if you shot a drugged up maniac in the face with that same frangible 380 ammo and blew half his cheek off, he would keep right on coming because he is insane and is not thinking like you or I. Plus, he is likely pain free and fear free and wont know that half his cheek is missing and if he did know, he would not care. So whatever 380 ammo you shoot him in the face with, had better go through his face and blow his brain stem out the back of his head, because only a CNS (central nervous system) hit with a 380 is going to stop him. Likewise, a torso hit to the sternum needs to penetrate deep enough to blow all the way through his spine in order to shut him down spontaneously. If you fail to shut him down instantly, you and your loved ones are going to have to find a way to survive while you wait for him to bleed out and pass out. The best chance of survival for you and your family is to shut down the attacker instantly. So, we've designed a few 380 auto +P loads to keep you and your loved ones alive under the worst of scenarios.
The end product is on the link given above.

Regards
Jeff Cooper advocated four basic rules of gun safety:
1) All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3) Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.
4) Identify your target, and what is behind it.

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Re: The comeback cartridge: 380 ACP

Post by boatme99 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:55 am

The .380 never really went away here in the U.S. In the early 1980's I carried a Walther, then jumped on the 9mm wagon, trading it for a S & W Mod. 39, which turned out to be a so-so gun. I picked up a Colt Gov't. .380, which I still have, although I rarely carry it any more. It's too nice and collectable for everyday carry.
My sister's everyday carry is a Bersa Thunder DLX .380. A friend of mine just purchased a Kel Tek P3AT .380 for everyday carry.
As for ammo, we've been able to consistently find it (paying a premium at times), and manage to fire at least 100 rounds a week for practice. :)
The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation where the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. James Madison

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Re: The comeback cartridge: 380 ACP

Post by m24 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:43 am

boatme99 wrote: As for ammo, we've been able to consistently find it (paying a premium at times), and manage to fire at least 100 rounds a week for practice. :)
And I thought we were the only one's paying premiums and super premiums on guns and ammo here in India. Didn't know such a thing as premium on ammo existed in US. :)

Regards
Jeff Cooper advocated four basic rules of gun safety:
1) All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3) Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.
4) Identify your target, and what is behind it.

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Re: The comeback cartridge: 380 ACP

Post by m24 » Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:06 am

After Wiley Clapp did a review of 9 .380s, here's a critic.

The .380 ACP in Review: A Critique of the American Rifleman Review of 9 New 380s.

Source: http://mjm.luckygunner.com/2010/06/12/t ... -new-380s/
The American Rifleman reviewed 9 new .380 ACP pistols. I let this article go, but have returned to it. Why? Here’s why: Shooters, I’m troubled by the article, that’s why.

Wiley Clapp has been writing for years. I value his career and I appreciate his work. However, this article reviewed guns men and women intend to stake their lives on: carry guns. Probably, the owners will never need to deploy the pistol but…. The gun owner will desperately need utter reliability–the gun must not fail. MUST not fail. Carrying is nice; having the thing go “BANG” at the critical moment is the sine qua non, the sole reason, for packing it in the first place.

Wiley reviewed the following: Kahr P380, Kel-Tec P3AT, Magnum Research Micro Desert Eagle, North American Arms Guardian, Rohrbaugh R380, Ruger LCP, Taurus 738 TCP (pictured on cover), SIG Sauer P238, and Walther PK380. These guns ranged widely in price, from $318 to $1,150. Wiley describes them in detail, and notes details that shooters realize are important only after buying it and putting some rounds downrange, things like poorly finished edges that bite your hand.

But, here is what bothers me: during the test, he fired each gun only about 100 rounds.

In a separate, colored print box, Mr. Clapp expressed his own concerns about the number of malfunctions he experienced shooting these guns. “I am concerned about the number of cycling malfunctions, most commonly failures to feed and chamber.” (p. 53) Worth mentioning, he wrote, ”The Rohrbaugh did not malfunction.” (p. 50)

Mr. Clapp cautions, “Shoot until malfunctions stop.” Mr. Clapp gives some benefit of the doubt, quoting Kahr’s manual cautioning the shooter to break the gun in with at least 200 rounds.

My Glock didn’t need breaking in. I’ve experienced one ammunition failure malfunction in 9,000 rounds. None with my S&W J-frame. One with my Taurus .38 revolver and I’ll never forget the shock. Guns you rely on to save your life in extreme circumstances must fire reliably. You can’t test a gun’s reliability firing only 100 rounds. Based on the test, I’d cross every gun off the list but the Rohrbaugh, and then it would get 400 more rounds. After 1,000 malfunction-free rounds, I’d be confident in the equipment. Granted, spending a range-day with a .380 is not great ergonomic fun. Ouch. But, neither is a close encounter with the demented kind fun. Hire some college kids to pull triggers and blast away, regardless of what’s hit and get some rounds through these combat pistols. Note every malfunction, record the type, the load, and when it occurred in the string of fire. Or, are these sea-change offerings really combat pistols at all?

I’d like to have seen a scathingly critical conclusion, admonishing the manufacturers to make guns that not only sell, but also shoot–every time–out of the box.
Regards
Jeff Cooper advocated four basic rules of gun safety:
1) All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3) Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.
4) Identify your target, and what is behind it.

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