I got robbed on Friday

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kanwar76
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Re: I got robbed on Friday

Post by kanwar76 » Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:31 am

Great dane is not a dog..its a Donkey.... :D

One of my uncle is big fan of this breed. I really don't know why. May be just to show... I've got a big un' :mrgreen:.

I think that is a utterly lazy breed. It will mess up your couch. It will lean on you when standing and this opinion is not based on one dog. I've seen three great danes with family and friends, all of them were like this..

I think the best dog for Guard duty is German Shepherd.. Alert always. Fierce when needed. Very friendly with ppl...

-Inder

Disclamer : My opinion regarding Great Danes are based on my experience with them, I never meant to offend any Great Dane or Great Dane lover :D
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Post by dev » Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:45 pm

I think yeah them Santhals be it. They look like your regular pie dogs but the tail is always curled up etc. The chow I haven't seen actually. I have seen lotsa very protective neutered dogs not to be a swine remember the Egyptian harem guards were huge eunuchs.

Today, the cops recommended getting an alarm that goes off at the neighbours and all. They also recommend the magic eye. But what happens when the power cut is on?

Regards,

Dev.
P.S. Will try to get pics of the Naga dogs if I get a chance.
kanwar76";p="6765 wrote:
mundaire";p="6752 wrote:
dev";p="6736 wrote:By the way have you heard about Naga dogs? They look street dogs but are more fierce, have curling tails and a great survival instinct. You would have to if you were a dog in Nagaland. ;-).
I think you are talking about the Indian "Bhutia" breed (I think that's the name) of hill dogs. They can be found in Garhwal as well... and they do have a fierce reputation. I believe the local shepherds use them to guard sheep...

I have little knowledge on the subject... mostly second hand stuff, heard from all manner of people - as always would be interested to learn more...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

I think Dev is talking about Santhals, which is a Shepherd breed from North East. The other good breed from NE is Naga Chow which is a small breed and look more or less like pomerians.

Abhijeet,

The Bhutias you are talking about are called Tibetan mastiff which is also a shepherds dog mainly found in Ladhak region. It looks like a Gaddi shepherds which is another mountain sheep dog but the only difference is tail. Tibetan mastiff has curled tail where as Gaddi mastiff has a less curled tail (Not straight). If you go to chail, Kinnaur area you will hear stories of Gaddi's bravery. Chasing leopards etc is their daily routine. I know of one incident where two Gaddi's killed a leopard. Most shepherds put a round iron collar with small edged iron rods on their dog’s neck which saves them from a stalking leopard.

-Inder
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Post by mehulkamdar » Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:30 pm

dev";p="6812 wrote: But what happens when the power cut is on?

Regards,

Dev.
All of the newer alarms have a built in UPS type system to keep them working if a thief tries disabling them by fiddling with the power supply. That should work even in case of a power failure. Just look for an alarm with this feature.

Cheers!

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Post by vishosingh » Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:38 pm

i think the best guard dogs are pakistani bullies once you leave them free no one can enter your house.period.
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Post by Sakobav » Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:36 am

Vishosingh

Here is snippet from Mehul ( ex Judge/trainer) regarding Bully Kuta , "The Tibetan Mastiff has been a dog with a fascinating history as it is a fierce guard dog though I have seen only the very gentlest examples myself. Perhaps, the Tibetan Khampas treat their dogs very cruelly in order to bring the worst out in them. The Tibetan Mastiff has been bred to create a Pakistani breed called Bully Kutta which is a huge dog but with less fur and it is used in dog fights in Pakistan and Afghanistan. I have never seen one in the flesh but have seen pictures of them - they look like Tibetan Mastiffs but with very short hair and I have only seen khakhi and similar colours."

SOme links although ones here look like Boxer Mastiff mixs
http://www.bullykutta.net/

http://www.freewebs.com/beasts-from-the ... hkorea.htm

Are these available in India?

Maintaining such huge dogs is a task in itself. My friends Tibetan Mastiff used to be moody and he would spare only few members of the family. One needs quite a bit open space for such dogs.

Rgds

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Re: I got robbed on Friday

Post by Mark » Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:41 am

Rottweilers not only are great guard dogs, but they make nice family members too!
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Post by vishosingh » Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:38 pm

hi grewal saab
have a bully with me which i am maintaining myself so wrote that through personal experience.however have never heard this theory of evolution from the tibetian mastiff even after extensive research.
here are a few resources about the bully though:
http://www.freewebs.com/beasts-from-the ... ykutta.htm

http://www.molosserdogs.com/modules.php ... &album=241

http://www.unkc.com/

and if you r interested in large breeds u can see some presa canarios as well.
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Re: I got robbed on Friday

Post by mehulkamdar » Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:02 pm

Vishosingh,

The two Pakistani fighting dog breeds, the Bully Kutta and Gull Terr are molosser breeds derived from the Tibetan Mastiff and bred with probably bull terriers and other English breeds to derive what the dog eventually became. There is no formal classification of the breed even in PAkistan and I did talk to a major Pakistani hunting and dog enthusiasts group about this very recently. Standardisation, if any, in the case of this breed, is more what has been done by the US and British Canice CLubs and as far as I know, neither has any category for showing these dogs though small numbers are available both in the US and the UK.

Again, I repeat this here, as my point has been missed several times - no dog by itself makes for any kind of complete protection and a reasonably strong adult with a knife could kill any dog that was born without trouble. The whole business of a particular type of dog being the best kind of protection is little more than a silly daydream by people who ought to know better. At best, in a modern con text, a dog could be used as a kind of live warning system to alert an owner who could then tackle an intruder with a gun or whatever.

And, the best basic resource for all dog breeds is this website: http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/

I find a lot of anonymous sites on free locations like Geocities written by the same daydreamers who imagine that their pet pooch is a guided misslie on four legs. Daydreaming may be fun, but just take a look at police forces and armies around the world and that should tell you what works and what doesn't for a guard dog. Also note that the dog handler is always accompanied by someone armed and ready.

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Post by eljefe » Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:48 am

mehul,
I would imagine that a household pet dog will react to any 'intrusion' of its 'family' in an aggressive manner?
Unless specifically trained, it will put up about as much of a fight as its pot bellied /cigar chewing/out of exercise owner would?
Then again, no house owner would want a specifically trained attack/war dog hanging around at home with kids running around-Sad story in today's times of india about a bull mastiff mauling a 5 year old girl to death-UK.
Logical that trainers/ handlers of war dogs and their charges live together, and in task specific instances, are accompanied by an armed escort, besides probably being armed themselves.
That bully kutta though, is a very impressive specimen, after the routine dobs and rottweilers and german shepards one sees here.
I second the 'early warning system' role for a household canine.
Best
Axx
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Re: I got robbed on Friday

Post by kanwar76 » Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:02 am

Hi Visho,

Welcome to the forum buddy. Do you have any pics of your bully kutta? If one want to buy one can you please give some pointers. I am currently looking one for my parents house. We've always kept GSD's so looking for something different. How’s the dog's temperament. Is it good with children?

Please post some pics of your dog.

-Inder
I am the Saint the Soldier that walks in Peace. I am the Humble dust of your feet, But dont think my Spirituality makes me weak. The Heavens will roar if my Kirpan were to speak...

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Re: I got robbed on Friday

Post by mehulkamdar » Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:39 am

Asif,

Somewhat earlier in this discussion I voiced exactly the concerns that you have voiced here. Dev wanted a dog that was savage and I suggested not to go for one. ANother thing that people don;t understand that most of the molosser dogs have broad snouts and if someone hits them hard on the snout the dog would be a lump of shivering protoplasm in a fraction of a second after being hit there. Even without a knife it would be possible to put one out of commission. If you see the breeds that police and armed forces select around the world, you'll see that they select lithe and slim dogs for precisely this reason.

As I said, a dog is a pack animal and if it is properly integrated into a family, it considers the family it's own pack and would alert the family if a stranger came in. After this, the owners would be best off defending themselves with a gun, or, if a gun is not available, then with some other offensive tool. Relying on a dog alone is foolishness of the highest order no matter what breed one chooses.

Cheers!

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Post by Sakobav » Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:12 am

Vishosingh

Thats a great dog congrats and it will be nice if you could post pictures. Like Inder would like to know any kennel or breeder who sells their pups.

Mark

That picture prooves the point that it all depends how one trains or brings up the dog irrespective of their breed. Smartest dog I have known was my uncle's Mutt.

Mehul

Snout size never realized that.

mehulkamdar

Re: I got robbed on Friday

Post by mehulkamdar » Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:13 am

Navdeep,

It is basically simple. You can hit something that is broad much more easily than something that is thin and narrow, hence a hard chop with the edge of your hand on the snout of a charging boxer, mastiff, bull terrier etc is much easier to land than on the thin snout of a Dobermann. And, as I said earlier, if someone has a knife, then the bigger the dog, the easier to land a hard cut on it. It is easy to get caught up in romantic notions of knights defending castles with packs of mastiffs or of Tibetan sheepherders defending their flocks from wolves with their dogs. The thing is that wolves are not human and the days of releasing packs of 30 or 40 savage dogs onto a raiding party have been dead for more than a few centuries.

Like armies and police the world over who have had to adapt to modernisation, it is neccessary for today's home owner to adapt in order to protect his life and his family. IMO the dog should only be al alert animal, a good pet that recognises family members and is allowed to run free on the home premises so that it identifies them as it's territory. AFter that the home owner should have a drill for handling intruders, preferrably with a gun, and a good shotgun would be the best bet followed by a handgun that someone could shoot reliably.

Cheers!

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Post by vishosingh » Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:45 am

hi guys first about the history:
There are two sides being disputed regarding the origins of these dogs -

1. That the Bully Kutta was developed during the British Colonial rule in India for sporting purposes - resulting from crosses of various Mastiffs and Bandogges brought from the west around that time.

2. That it is of ancient origin, and direct offspring of the Alaunt and Hyrcania dogs of Ancient Persia, as well as the legendary Assyrian Molossus - brought the Indian subcontinent by the Indo-Aryans invaders. There is evidence that Pakistan and India already had such Mastiff type dogs long before the arrival of the British, and are mentioned in the literature of Alexander the Great and Aristotle. Through early contacts between the Persian and Assyrian empires, and the Indus Valley civilization, it is possible that the large Mastiff type dogs of India and those of the Persians/Assyrians, have influenced each other.

The truth of those two likely lies somewhere in between. It is mostly found today in areas belonging to Pakistan - particularly in Punjab, Azad Kashmir and North-West Frontier Province. A local strain of Bully Kutta exists, which became known as the "Sindh Mastiff" and "Indian Mastiff". Inspite of its name - it hales from Punjab not Sindh.

The "Bully" in its name actually comes from the Hindi/Urdu word bohli - meaning heavily wrinkled. "Kutta" means dog. Due to the fact that the BK is not bred to a standard or have any kind of recognition - it is technically not yet a "breed", rather a type of dog. In Pakistan the term "Bully Kutta" can refer to any kind of very large Mastiff type dog.

Though in the past it has been used by criminal gangs for dog fighting, which is illegal in Pakistan, the majority are pets or used as guard dogs.

another theory :
Prior to the British occupation of the Indian Contingent the Indian geographical boundaries comprised the entire Pakistan and even Afghanistan and the entire Khyber Pass through which Alexander The Great invaded Samarkhand and subsequently India.
Prior to the invasion of the Greeks the Iranian traders would venture in this territory for trade and the Alaunts would come along with them and they must have been there long before Alexander invades Samarkhand.
During the time Alexander the Great would conquer Samarkhand and fall in love with the Princess of Samarkhand, a lady of legendary beauty whom many thought as a myth. He got married to the Princess of Samarkhand, Rushnak, whom he called Roxanne, as he found difficult to pronounce the name Rushnak. Alexander’s brief stay in Samarkhand (now Part of Afghanistan) for more than usual time allocated in his plan. His Assyrian Mastiffs and the Medians (known for their fighting breed), and the Indian Mastiff originally being in this region, might have mated to create the great Gawii, the Afghanistani Bulldog.
During this time when Gawii is fading fast, a drop or two of Gawii’s blood found its way into the available Alaunt (or its version), creating a specimen which when crossed with the Indian Mastiff achieved a formidable size and temperament to become the Bully Kutta.
Bully survived being light footed and longer nosed with the tough Gawii temperament, and it gained much deserved popularity.
The entire Indian continent being a princely state was divided into many kingdoms and each had their own preferences. So the Bully Kutta survived in being different forms and shape as per the zonal preferences. This went far into the history and after Pakistan was created, each and every zone would have its own type of Bulldog, or populary called Bully. This is where the confusion began. The Area of Kohat has their own version of Kohati Bull dog, Sargodha has their own type and the Indian Mastiffs (otherwise called Sindh Mastiff) in the Sindh Area and in the Bhawalpur area of Punjab, will also be called the Bully as they all belonged to the Bull breed.
The Kohati Bull Dog is known for its excellent guarding and hunting abilities but loosing its popularity recently due to their lack of proper attitude required for fighting.

With time, even crosses of Kooche Dog and Bully Kutta and even Tosa Bully mixes get accepted as Bully. It is a very confusing zone to locate a proper Bully Kutta. Buyers be aware, and do go to Pakistan for some research before buying a Bully Kutta, and watch the Bully kutta in its element and decide if you are capable of managing a dog and man aggressive dog as the Bully kutta in the first place.
However it is to be noted that every different versions had enough time to standardize and now breeds true to its type. But people living in the gray zone will exist everywhere and as long as the dog fights goes on these group of people will keep on experimenting and keep introducing various bull type mixes as Bully Kutta. This is how the Original Bully Kutta got lost.
However there are few (I mean very few) breeders in Pakistan and a couple in India who are breeding true Bully Kutta and try their best to keep them in their original shape and form. Mr. Hammad Hassan is one such Pakistani breeder who not only strives hard to breed Bully true to its type but also tries his best to restore the breed in its pristine form.
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Post by vishosingh » Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:53 am

now about thething about day dreaming and large dogs:
here i would definately like to point out that any able bodied man with any knife cannot avoid getting bit by a large dog on charge. and once bit ithink stealing or breaking and entering would be the last thing on his mind.any person who has been on the recieving end of a charge bay a large dog or who has seen it happening would agree.guys i have seen bull terriers bring large men to their knees!!

i would also point here that the basic idea of a guarding system may it be electronic ,a chowkidar or a dog is to buy you time and to warn you and i think the a dog biting someone is someting that can buy you the maximum time.without a warning even a shotgun by the bedside may prove useless. let me also say here that there is no such guarding system today which works without human asistance.ihope all u guys agree!!
regards
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