What is the minimum handgun calibre....

[Mack The Knife]

....that you would feel comfortable with when stopping a determined attack?

Mack The Knife

[axp817]

The operative word being "comfortable" and the attack being a "determined" one, I have to say .45 ACP 200+ grain hollow point for handguns and 12 ga self defense shells for a shotgun.

A determined attack would be from one or more persons who would usually have a plan, weapons, and in such a case I would want something that "drops" them and not just keeps them away.

The assumption in the above situation is that I would have had enough practice at the range, especially with the handgun.

If it were a situation where I had to choose between various calibre weapons right before the attack occured and I didn't have much experience/practice with any calibre, I would probably choose a 9mm.

[penpusher]

Mack The Knife,

Planning a trip to Afghanistan or Iraq.Or do you plan to take a vacation to the more happening places in India. J&K, Assam , Mizoram, Nagaland ,Chhattisghar,Jharkhand.......

If you plan to stay in Bangalore, I think your khukhri would do.But do pray that you are not confronting a Jihadist/Naxalite taking a vacation there:D

How about .44 Mag/.45ACP/500 S&W/460S&W.The older calibres like the 455W&S were not bad too.Wouldn't mind the complication of having to choose between which one to use

At short ranges a shotty would do.Even loaded with birdshot.Buck shot is banned in India.So how about a DBBl with one barrel loaded with BB and the other with Ball.Then the Khukhri.Ayo Gurkhali,Jai Mahakali.

[Mack The Knife]

Mack The Knife,

Planning a trip to Afghanistan or Iraq.Or do you plan to take a vacation to the more happening places in India. J&K, Assam , Mizoram, Nagaland ,Chhattisghar,Jharkhand.......

Was only trying to get some conversation going.

I hate slow boards.

[mehulkamdar]

Mack The Knife,

Knowing how enthusiastic the I4G membership is, this is not going to remain a slow board for long. Also, Abhijeet has just disabled the Yahoogroups to enable people to move here faster by virtue of their no longer being able to post there.

In any case, let's get on with your question now that the 45 ACP is legal in India again for civilians. I may be buying a 1911 later this year, most probably one of the new Smith and Wessons in the calibre though I have been advised to look at the Springfield Armory 1911s as well as the Kimbers. I had a look at all of them at the NRA convention and I somehow liked the S&Ws a lot.

That said, in the Indian context, if I was in India at the moment, I would own a 22 cal revolver or automatic if I found a good one. The reason would be ammunition availability so that I could practice shooting the thing. Also, at short ranges, the 22 is very accurate and I would take head shots with it, likely to down any attacker who was within 20 feet. We have discussed this on the Yahoo boards and if a long arm were a possibility then wither a shotgun or a 22 lr rifle would be my preferred choice to a pistol in India.

Cheers,

Mehul

[cyrixoutside]

hi,

when did .45 acp become legel again for civilains in india. has their been some new notification in the recent past ???

please some details.

for self defence hand gun, one should purchase the most powerful caliber that one can comfortably use. of course in indian situation one also need to add other qualifications like availability of ammunition etc.

now a .22 lr comming out of a 24 inch rifle barrel and a .22 lr comming out of a 2 inch revolver barrel are very different propositions.

and even out of the rifle barrel the .22 lr maybe a effective killer, but its is certainly no "man stopper".

also if a guy is runnning towards one from 20 feet away with a knife/or god forbid - axe, then its nearly impossible that anyhing but shots to the body will happen, when the fear factor sets in, natural instincts take over and head shots are out of the question.

in fact as the US troops in Iraq has discovered that with FMJ ammunition (which is all that one can get in india) the 9mm's are hopeless and even the.45 acp not very effective as "man stoppers"

they have resorted to short barreled shotguns to make sure of things.

india in terms of pistol the .30 tokarev is the best bet as ammo is easily available

as for revolver get a .32 its the best solution for india situations.



rajat

p.s - some experst in the US do consider the .22 Magnun caliber with H.P bullets as a viable self defence option in situation where very deep concelment is necessary. However its not somthing to bet ones life on.

In a self defence situation the only weapon that would give me confidence is a shotgun with preferably a pump action or a DBBL and since we can't have buck shot, 6 or 7 birdshot.

[Mack The Knife]

Corrections, corrections, corrections....

Firstly, it's IFG not I4G. None of that text speak gobledy-gook. Thank you very much.

Secondly, there seems to be some confusion regarding the legality of the .45 ACP cartridge. It is perfectly legal provided one has a Prohibited Bore licence. That's all there is to it.

Interesting choice of self defense calibre. Would you go for a HP or a solid in high velocity or standard velocity.

Mack The Knife

[mehulkamdar]

Rajat,

There was a Supreme Court judgement in 2004 which set aside the calibre restrictions when I had just come to the US - I remember reading about it on the Deccan Chronicle and Hindu websites. All non military chamberings became legit - that said, the babus in India interpret the law to their convenience. Since the 45 ACP was not a military calibre in India, it should be legal now. Talking to a babu is another matter altogether...

penpusher should throw more light on this - he knows more about the law there than I do.

Cheers,

Mehul

PS I had a 25 auto for self defence and it was a pain to find ammunition for it. Frankly, I don't think head shots are difficult at 20 feet and under with a little practice - that said, a bigger calibre is always better. I agree with you on that absolutely, though ammunition availability etc in India would propel me towards the 22 lr if I had to have a defensive pistol.

[Mack The Knife]

Frankly, I don't think head shots are difficult at 20 feet and under with a little practice

You'd be surprised.

Mack The Knife

[sat]

I gather several people have Colt 45 ACP pistol in Mumbai. Not sure if they have a P bore licence. These licences were issued about three years ago.

Sat

[mehulkamdar]

Thanks for this information, Sat. I hope it is useful to anyone who wants to buy a 1911 though where they would get the guns or the ammunition for them, goodness alone knows.

Mack The Knife,

I have practised with the 25 that I owned quite a bit and if the gun is accurate then head shots are not difficult. In any case, this is an exercise based on available guns in India and those that have ammunition also available for them. I am going to buy a 1911 later this year for recreation shooting but then I could walk into a gun shop and pick up ammunition for it whenever I needed any. It's a shame it can;t be done in India.

Cheers,

Mehul

[penpusher]

Mehul,

Wrote a lengthy reply but could not post it due to some bug in my system.Don't have the energy to type it all again.So in brief:-

1.45ACP is PB no matter what the Commissioner/DCP in Mumbai is doing
2.25 is notorious for the bullets key holing because of the short barrels these pistols come with.Head shots at 20 ft. with a .25.Not likely.Ammo however is available again.All S&B.

3.Which 1911 do you plan to buy.Have drooled over photos of the Kimber 1911.

Take care,
penpusher

[Mack The Knife]

I have practised with the 25 that I owned quite a bit and if the gun is accurate then head shots are not difficult.

And I still maintain that even if the pistol is accurate and the shooter is very familiar with it, he will still have a problem at a fast oncoming target.

This is not gallery shooting, where one shoots in known and friendly circumstances.

I am reasonably confident in saying that most wont even recover from the shock of being attacked to get their pistols out of their holsters, leave alone getting off a few shots.

Mack The Knife

[penpusher]

Since 9mm's and .45's cant produce one shot stopping power,it's time to look at something more powerfull.

Here are my suggestions for minimum calibre for stopping a determined attack:-

1.For long range dipossal of Bad Guys how about a 155mm Howitzer. Mehul is the Bofors gum you had mentioned still for sale? But since it concerns you'r life why not go for something better,how about a 205mm gun.Better still , a 16" Naval gun.If they are not available , a MBRL might be used as a poor substitute

2.Now if the Bad Guy survives that and you see him crawling towards you with one arm and leg blown off,a la Arnie in Terminator,I would suggest a Gattling gun.The type mounted on heli's and which can burp out a couple of thousand rounds a min.

3.If the bad guy is still moving,I would say bring out the anti-material rifle.14.7 IOF.The Boyz Anti-tank rifle.Anything else in this class.

4.Assuming that the Bad Guy is really determined ,you would still see him moving towards you, a couple of rounds of a RPG would soften him up a bit .

5.As he moves closer,no need to panic,we have one of those muzzle loading 6 pdr guns that you see in the Napoleonic/American Civil War movies,loaded with grape shot.

6.Now you are ready to finally finish off this threat.Take out the 'British Army issue 15" Khukri(Indian army issue would do as well) and lope off the Bad Guys head.As you do so ,you would notice the limbs of the Bad Guy,at least the ones still attached to him,twitching.There is no need for further hacking,this is what all Bad Guys do when their heads are removed from their bodies.

Now repeat the process for all the Bad Guys that you might encounter.This is no laghing matter.It concerns your life and when it comes down to that, nothing but the best available equipment would do.

Take care and be prepared,
penpusher

PS-Do follow these instructions if you encounter the Squirell like creature carrying a bazooka that you find pictured on the armygran bakground of this site.

[cyrixoutside]

hi,

no one mentioned .357 mag ?

its not practicle in india due to lack of ammunition and high cost of the revolvers.

however with 125 gr H.P a 357 mag would be a very good choice for self defence. just keep the barrel to a min of 4 inches.



rajat

p.s - head shots at even 10 feet in a life and death situation are not a simple matter. when fear takes over even taking a gun out of the holster and disengaging the safety sometimes become impossible to do. multiple hits to the center of mass are the best one can possible expect.

btw - i used to have a .25 acp pistol, once it fired it at a plastic shampoo bottle, the range was about 5 feet, the bullet bounced of the bottle, not even a scratch.

i was stunned.

goes without saying i no longer have a .25