Lady and guards shoot intruders in Kolkata

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Re: Lady and guards shoot intruders in Kolkata

Post by goodboy_mentor » Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:48 pm

Personally I am only keen to see if the charges of homicide stick in court or whether Mamta Agarwal and her guards succeeds in proving that they acted in self defence.
Law for right of private defense is very clear starting from Sections 96 to 106 IPC. Charges of murder filed by police itself shows that rule of law hardly exists. Is the police not investigating the fact that trespassers had scaled the walls before pressing charges in court? The law is very clear on how to treat trespassers. When a person is implementing the law for self defense, why should be made to face the legal hardships in court rooms?
I certainly hope all parties in this situation receive the justice that is due to them.
I wish the same too. But probably you are not aware of the extent of sorry state of affairs in this country.
In India justice comes to those who fight for it with their arms.
Probably this is why Maoists and people in various parts of the country have taken up arms to fight for their rights.
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Re: Lady and guards shoot intruders in Kolkata

Post by AgentDoubleS » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:04 pm

What a sorry state this country has come to. The more I read about the state of common man the more disheartened I get.

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Re: Lady and guards shoot intruders in Kolkata

Post by FN-Five-Seven » Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:08 am

hks2056 wrote:Most of the police investigations are not guided by the facts. On the contrary it is guided by what is projected in media.
Would you be kind enough to elaborate a bit more on the comment you posted ?

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Re: Lady and guards shoot intruders in Kolkata

Post by renjith747 » Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:52 am

SS wrote:What a sorry state this country has come to. The more I read about the state of common man the more disheartened I get.
If the situation is like this it is better for us to shoot clays with 12bore guns and 50m competition with rifles and pistols that we had in our license.Only for sports is safe.If the law is like this how we use firearms for self defence if we go into jail and get harassments from the police who are responsible for the security of every people in their premises.They cannot protect every person from bad guys it's a fact and they have to admit it.When there is a breakage of law and a common man uses his arms for self defense he is going to land in a big trouble and it lasts till the end of his grave yard in the present condition of judiciary :roll: .


We can argue and debate various sections in IPC that stands for self defense here in this forum, but real life is little different according to this incident.I don't think police will ever try to admit that there is right to self defense and make common man to know there exists a provision in IPC as they fears people will take guns for each and every thing and misuse the same.

What will we do in a self defence situation where life comes to threat either to shoot or not ???

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Re: Lady and guards shoot intruders in Kolkata

Post by farook » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:28 pm

renjith747 wrote:
SS wrote:What a sorry state this country has come to. The more I read about the state of common man the more disheartened I get.
If the situation is like this it is better for us to shoot clays with 12bore guns and 50m competition with rifles and pistols that we had in our license.Only for sports is safe.If the law is like this how we use firearms for self defence if we go into jail and get harassments from the police who are responsible for the security of every people in their premises.They cannot protect every person from bad guys it's a fact and they have to admit it.When there is a breakage of law and a common man uses his arms for self defense he is going to land in a big trouble and it lasts till the end of his grave yard in the present condition of judiciary :roll: .


We can argue and debate various sections in IPC that stands for self defense here in this forum, but real life is little different according to this incident.I don't think police will ever try to admit that there is right to self defense and make common man to know there exists a provision in IPC as they fears people will take guns for each and every thing and misuse the same.

What will we do in a self defence situation where life comes to threat either to shoot or not ???

Regards
Renjith.
Its certainly justified on the law enforcement to analyse all aspects of the incidents. Did she use the weapon when it was absolutely necessary, did she fire a warning shot, in most cases a shot in the air is sufficient to diffuse the situation. Firing unprovoked is not exactly human. Taking someones life is not acceptable to law unless the situation is out of control. Even in countries where law allows you to defend yourself and where owning a gun is a constitutional right of ever citizen, most states have a policy of retreat. Law advises them to run away from the scene and call the police. Did she call for help where the authority was 300 metes, could she have called for help. All these aspects need to be analysed.

Last year in oct there was a similar incident in nelmangala, a small rural area 30 km from my city of Bangalore. A group of dreaded local rowdies attacked a farmers house at around 1 pm. Around twenty of them came in a van and threatened the daughter and mother of a farmer of dire consequences if they did not pay the Protection Money of fifty thousand rupees by evening. The farmer at the that point of time was away in a nearby village. When he received the call from his wife he called the police and rushed back immediately. The police did visit the farmers house needless to say they were all gone. Hell broke loose that night when twenty rowdies armed with axes and swords attacked their pray, unwilling to pay them the farmer took out his 12 bore shotgun and fired into the air. The gundas were least effected. With no other option he finally fired at them, hearing the gunshots the neighbors took out their shotguns and joined the farmer. Forty rounds were fired by the group of farmers killing 4 of the rowdies and seriously injuring ( think ) 7 of them, the remaining fled for their life. A high level investigation was carried out the by police which led to the report "Shooting Justified". No cases were filed against any of the farmers. This is just one example of what a gun can do in a life threatening situation..
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Re: Lady and guards shoot intruders in Kolkata

Post by timmy » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:38 pm

farook wrote:Did she use the weapon when it was absolutely necessary, did she fire a warning shot, in most cases a shot in the air is sufficient to diffuse the situation.

farook wrote: Last year in oct there was a similar incident in nelmangala, a small rural area 30 km from my city of Bangalore. . . . Hell broke loose that night when twenty rowdies armed with axes and swords attacked their pray, unwilling to pay them the farmer took out his 12 bore shotgun and fired into the air. The gundas were least effected.
I'm not sure I am getting the point. It seems the goondas in your example did not know they were supposed to run away after the farmer's warning shot.

Are you sure tht the woman or her guards did not fire a warning shot?

Are you sure that they had a means of escape and did not try to run away?

Please fill in the details on the incident.
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Re: Lady and guards shoot intruders in Kolkata

Post by goodboy_mentor » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:00 pm

As per law there is no need to run away or fire warning shot provided the right of private defense gets invoked as mentioned from Sections 96 to 106 Indian Penal Code along with the restrictions mentioned therein.
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Re: Lady and guards shoot intruders in Kolkata

Post by farook » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:06 pm

The specific statement on record by the gundas after the farmer fired the warning shot was " We have seen lot of those". Apparently they believed he was impossiblely out numbered.

Had the lady fired a warning shot, could she have retreated, let the investigation complete. I can assure you her conviction will be based on these two aspects...

Need I mention here that there is lot contradiction between the lady's statement and the cctv footage...
Last edited by farook on Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lady and guards shoot intruders in Kolkata

Post by goodboy_mentor » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:47 pm

We live in an amazing country where the law and justice is given a back seat and statements of attacking goondas are believed.

We live in an amazing country where the law and justice is given a back seat and lady in her house is expected to fire warning shot or retreat when a gang of goondas scale the boundary wall and enter her own residence.

If this is the state of affairs how long will it take for the Indian State to whither away into the pages of history?
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Re: Lady and guards shoot intruders in Kolkata

Post by FN-Five-Seven » Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:16 pm

goodboy_mentor wrote:As per law there is no need to run away or fire warning shot provided the right of private defense gets invoked as mentioned from Sections 96 to 106 Indian Penal Code along with the restrictions mentioned therein.
Yes , maybe ( and I am saying maybe because I am not well versed with the Sections of the Indian Penal Code as you are ) firing a warning shot is not mandatory by Law , but it's never a bad idea to fire warning shot to intimidate the enemy/ attacker to retreat . My opinion of course ; others may differ .

It's just like keeping a fire extinguisher at home , even if it's not made mandatory by the Law .


Okay this is something I would like to add to this thread . This is what I read in the newspapers . I am providing the text in Quotes as well as Links
“Two men pinned me down and started strangulating me and tearing apart my clothes. I shouted and the guard came running to help. The gun was lying under our landlord’s (Ratan Lal Nahata) bed and the guard took the gun and began firing. He kept firing and chased them out of my room to the courtyard. The courtyard was full of bouncers in black clothes and there were women from a security agency,” Mamta said early this morning.

“Charo taraf se dhaam dhaam dhaam dhaam karne lage (there were sounds of gunfire from everywhere). I hid myself inside the house and the police told me later that some people were killed. I don’t know how many,” she added.
The police were initially treating Mamta as a victim but decided to arrest her after watching the footage from closed-circuit TV cameras that her own school had installed following an earlier trespass attempt in September. Nahata, who had staked claim to the property, was then seen sitting with a gun across his lap, guarding the plot.

“Footage from the four CCTV cameras installed on the premises show the woman running around with a gun and randomly opening fire. The first shot was fired at 4.43am. We detained her immediately after watching the footage and later arrested her after one of the private guards lodged a complaint,” said Murali Dhar, the DCP.

A senior officer said the footage suggested that she had herself torn her clothes. Till late tonight, the police had not charged any of the alleged trespassers with attempt to rape or assault.

The police said Mamta used to stay in a room on the same premises. Nahata lives in another part of the compound.

According to the police, the principal called up several friends and acquaintances after she found some of the men in black clothes standing on the school premises.

“The CCTV footage shows the unarmed guards running for cover inside one of the rooms of the school which has wooden walls. However, she kept running from one end to another and kept firing, aiming at the room,” said Pallab Kanti Ghosh, joint commissioner of police (crime).

The footage, the police claimed, shows Mamta and Pappu exchanging guns while running in the courtyard. One CCTV clip shows Pappu going very close to one of the classrooms and firing at a trespasser who was hiding inside. It is, however, unclear whose shots killed the duo.
Link
The nature of the bullet wounds that killed two recruits of a security agency at 9A Short Street suggests they were shot from “close range”, a hypothesis that investigators are trying to tie up with CCTV footage to establish the crime.

Prasenjit Dey and Pikloo Acharyaa were both fatally shot in the head while their colleague Kaushik Auddy was hospitalised after taking a bullet in his eye during school principal Mamta Agarwal’s alleged retaliation to a trespass early on Monday.
“CCTV footage showing more than one shooter aiming at targets from different locations have made it confusing to ascertain who killed whom. But the nature of wounds has made our work a little easier,” said an officer of the homicide department of Calcutta police.

The skull of one of the two persons who died in the incident was blown off. The other man had a gaping wound in the head.

According to a preliminary investigation, the distance between the victims and the shooter(s) would not have been more than four feet, the officer said.

The police know that establishing the exact sequence of events and who shot who is crucial to proving the murder charge against Mamta and the two guards employed by her.
Link

Maybe this is why the Police have charged Mamta Agarwal with charge of murder .

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Re: Lady and guards shoot intruders in Kolkata

Post by farook » Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:31 pm

goodboy_mentor wrote:We live in an amazing country where the law and justice is given a back seat and statements of attacking goondas are believed.

We live in an amazing country where the law and justice is given a back seat and lady in her house is expected to fire warning shot or retreat when a gang of goondas scale the boundary wall and enter her own residence.

If this is the state of affairs how long will it take for the Indian State to whither away into the pages of history?

The statement was given by the farmer during the course of investigation...he repeatedly warned them before opening fire
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Re: Lady and guards shoot intruders in Kolkata

Post by TC » Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:46 pm

Gentlemen, the police have seized and studied 8.3 minutes of CCTV recording showing the shooting and the same will be produced before the Court during trial.

As far as my knowledge goes the footage possibly shows the lady firing in the air / letting off warning shot at least once because one of the officers who studied the recording told a couple of reporters that "she fired blanks and also shot at the intruders."
By "blanks" cops mean firing in the air. Even today few of them know the technical difference and even fewer are aware that blanks are cartridges without projectiles. However, this information is not an official statement from the authorities and should be considered purely as my input because neither I nor the reporters who talked to me have seen the footage.

One more point. The lady, even as she was seen (in the footage) running from one corner of the courtyard to the other and firing at the intruders, was also trying to call up someone on her mobile phone. At that point, it could only be the police or someone who she thought might be of help.

The spot where the incident took place was not very brightly lit, also say the police investigators.


AND NOW SOME OFFICIAL DEVELOPMENT
When she was produced in court the day before, Mamta Agarwal's counsel argued that she had opened fire in self-defence after outsiders forcibly entered the premises. But the public prosecutor argued that even though the firearms seized from her house were licensed, those were not issued in her name. (As I mentioned earlier, they belong to Ratanlal Nahata, another resident of the premises, who was in a nursing at the time of the incident)

Counsel for the so-called security guards and bouncers (they were all deployed by a registered security agency against payment for that night's assignment i.e. to take possession of the house by throwing out Agarwal) argued that these men were all unarmed. So, the relevant IPC section relating to trespassing with intent to cause grievous hurt did not hold water, he pleaded before the court. The magistrate ordered police remand for all the accused till November 25.


So long. Thanks for all the valuable inputs and a great discussion.

TC


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Re: Lady and guards shoot intruders in Kolkata

Post by goodboy_mentor » Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:57 pm

When faced with situations as mentioned in Sections 100 and 103 IPC, wasting cartridges by firing in the air is not a legal requirement. Whether gun is legal or illegal is of no consequence for right of private defense. Example: if attacker is attacking with illegal firearm, it does not mean the victim will not snatch that illegal gun and fire back in self defense.

No gentleman or group of persons will scale the walls of any house especially in darkness or odd hours. Such an act itself causes reasonable apprehension that they have dangerous intentions. Section 103 of IPC is very clear about trespassing. Whether armed or unarmed is of no consequence. Section 100 IPC is also very clear about what can be done when faced with death, grievous hurt, rape, unnatural lust, kidnapping, wrongful confinement. Those who are not familiar with Sections 96 to 106 IPC can use Google and read them. Also Supreme Court judgment Darshan Singh vs State Of Punjab & Anr. on 15 January, 2010 can be read.
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Re: Lady and guards shoot intruders in Kolkata

Post by farook » Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:07 pm

goodboy_mentor wrote:Those who are not familiar with Sections 96 to 106 IPC can use Google and read them.
I have posted the IPC sections on self defense on page 1 of this discussion...
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Re: Lady and guards shoot intruders in Kolkata

Post by farook » Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:56 pm

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