• Advertisement
Kiehberg.in -  Outdoor gear and sports equipment

The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Posts related to rifles.
User avatar
estousandy
Posts: 397
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:41 pm
Location: KL

Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Postby estousandy » Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:27 am

One thing that everyone in the know swears by is: Insas is accurate. It's a surprise that some rudimentary ordnance factories of India can make something that faithfully does atleast 50% of the intended task. The rest is all cr*p. The AK with an off axis barrel may not pull off such a feat, especially with the kind of buttstocks Indian forces use on them. Neither was it designed for hole-in-hole.

Issue lies in the godawful implementation of insas which goes by the name of battle-rifle. It's just too long for any kind of maneuvering. Given the fact that a basic Indian soldier is untrained in proper gun hold or posture, these contraptions look very unwieldy in their hands. A modern field soldier needs a combat-carbine the size of an M4(just a ref, im not pro/anti US) or similar which can do an all round job. With some usable P-rails on them, top, bottom & side with proper mount points for 3-point sling operation about which Indian Army is not aware yet. Insas has none of these + extremely unrefined but somehow working internals. Save for the tiny rails provided, that too on the top cover! Goodluck keeping a zero with that.

Funny thing is this gun system is surviving in Siachen as well as Thar, when most other goodlooking guns failed. God knows what's the truth in that. Glad they are phasing out this ugly question mark.


with guns we are citizens, without we are subjects

For Advertising mail webmaster
User avatar
gladiatorgarg
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:31 pm
Location: india

Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Postby gladiatorgarg » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:34 pm

This weapon system like any other weapon system is still going through its experiment state..in case of India its more because of our lack of interest, attitude and dedication towards our work...but one thing for sure I have been using this weapon from its induction as 1A n its latest avataar 1B1...it is one piece of weapon which is functional from -40 to +48 deg temp...and I hardly have seen any other weapons like them...I have seen beretta carbine with BSF n CRPF and they have their fare share of trouble as well and other foreign carbine/assault rifle with our colleagues in SF's they r good no doubt but no1 is trouble free ...but there is a huge scope of improvement and i sincerely hope that with this make in India drive there will be soon a better and much improved INSAS for us...



bennedose
Posts: 930
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:30 pm

Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Postby bennedose » Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:06 pm

dev wrote:They should start selling the INSAS to civilians, we are conditioned to paying more for inferior quality stuff.
I quite liked the INSAS in the brief window that I had to shoot it. It was accurate though the cocking was inconvenient.
Wouldn't mind having one for shooting targets, really like the 5.56 round, strangely a round that the IOFB seems to make well.

Hasn't the Tavor already been introduced among the special forces?


I think they settled on an extra powerful 5.56 mm round for INSAS. I have been reading mostly lousy things about INSAS right from the late 1990s - all the way through the Kargil conflict where it was used in numbers and I am still reading the same stuff about it. When you question soldiers who carry the weapon they don't curse though - and I suppose I could make a list of 10 reasons why they don't curse.

The "average" security person carries AK 47s - nowadays usually with the bevelled muzzle to reduce barrel kick up - the AK is said to be accurate up to around 300 meters. The INSAS I recall being told is accurate to a longer distance. It is unsuitable for close areas and close in carriage - eg in a car. I am seeing more Tavors nowadays in the hands of security forces. I still see the occasional 9 mm Sten, and local police still use the century old .303. But the foot soldier is INSAS armed until something new comes up. For the last 10 years the same mannequin with the same uniform has been displayed at Aero India as an example of F-INSAS (Future Infantry Soldier Armament System) or something like that. Latest I read - that plan has been shelved.



User avatar
xl_target
Posts: 3455
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:47 am
Location: USA

Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Postby xl_target » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:56 pm

I think they settled on an extra powerful 5.56 mm round for INSAS.

Bennedose,
Are you saying that the INSAS doesn't use the standard 5.56X45 NATO ammunition?


“Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense” — Winston Churchill, Oct 29, 1941

bennedose
Posts: 930
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:30 pm

Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Postby bennedose » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:20 pm

xl_target wrote:
I think they settled on an extra powerful 5.56 mm round for INSAS.

Bennedose,
Are you saying that the INSAS doesn't use the standard 5.56X45 NATO ammunition?

This is what I recall. The army complained that the NATO round was not powerful enough (or something like that). Let me see if I can dig up the source.



bennedose
Posts: 930
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:30 pm

Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Postby bennedose » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:48 pm

Difficult to find much info. It appears that there is a separate 5.56 x 45 "INSAS" round - that apparently has a longer range that the std NATO round. Still looking for better links - but here are a couple of pointers. The OFB site calls it the 5.56x45 INSAS Ball ammunition
http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarm ... rms_id=538
While developed to fire the 5.56x45mm NATO standard cartridge, the INSAS has also been seen in 5.56x45mm INSAS and 5.56x30mm MINSAS calibers as well.


http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009 ... mmunition/
The firearm (not INSAS) chambers a round developed in India called the 5.56x30mm. This round is sometimes referred to as the “5.56x30mm INSAS” after the first gun to chambered the round, the INSAS Carbine Those of you who follow the industry closely may recall that Colt developed a round named the 5.56x30mm MARS during the 90’s as part of their now defunct Mini Assault Rifle project. I imagine the INSAS cartridge is very similar. The Colt patent describes the MARS cartridge:

The MARS cartridge is designed as part of the weapon system and exploits the high energy densities of modern ball powders. It for the first time uses magnum pistol type powders burned at rifle pressures to achieve high rifle velocities in a short rifle barrel. It uses a fast ball powder to achieve 2600 ft/sec with a 55 gr full metal jacket projectile in only an 11 inch barrel.

The MARS cartridge/rifle was able to achieve similar ballistics as a ultra-short barreled 5.56x45mm NATO rifle (I use the term rifle loosely, sub-carbine is more correct), but with less muzzle flash, noise and weight. The Indians went with the 5.56x30mm over the 5.56x45mm for these exact same reasons as Colt.
- See more at: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009 ... NQ3BZ.dpuf



User avatar
estousandy
Posts: 397
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:41 pm
Location: KL

Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Postby estousandy » Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:02 pm

I'll quote a previous post of mine here. viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9131&start=45#p220764

When people talk about this that 5.56mm is not for kill, they dont know much about 5.56mm, There are many kind of 5.56mm and the one India use is more lethal than NATO, When introduce it used SS109 Nato rounds which were lighter and not capable of killing, Now INSAS use OFB 64gr(77gr too) 5.56mm ammo from its 18.3inch barrel and kills..


This might be what they meant by "extra powerful". Turns out, muzzle velocities are similar for all grains, even for the heaviest.

The 5.56x30mm MINSAS caliber is for the "Amogh" rifle, which is said to be a heavily modernized version in the Insas platform. It is used mostly by the Indian Coast Guard. There might be some other SMGs in the platform which use the same caliber. Said to have succeeded Army trials but not really inducted in any role.

Image

gladiatorgarg wrote:..but one thing for sure I have been using this weapon from its induction as 1A n its latest avataar 1B1.


Glad to hear from an actual user. The gun actually does work, maybe that's why none is going over abusive over this 'thing'. They just have to re-engineer it & bring it up to the times. Aesthetics & ergonomics does matter in this age. Hope MCIWS improves upon this fully.

Info & pic from DFI.
Last edited by estousandy on Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.


with guns we are citizens, without we are subjects

TwoRivers
Posts: 1526
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:11 pm
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska

Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Postby TwoRivers » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:39 pm

estousandy wrote:I'll quote a previous post of mine here. http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 45#p220764


This might be what they meant by "extra powerful". Turns out, muzzle velocities are similar for all grains, even for the heaviest.


If that were to be true, it would indeed be a most remarkable achievement in Indian propellant technology. I seriously doubt that statement.



User avatar
estousandy
Posts: 397
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:41 pm
Location: KL

Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Postby estousandy » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:52 pm

TwoRivers wrote:If that were to be true, it would indeed be a most remarkable achievement in Indian propellant technology. I seriously doubt that statement.


Sorry about that. That does not sound logical.


with guns we are citizens, without we are subjects

bennedose
Posts: 930
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:30 pm

Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Postby bennedose » Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:01 pm

It all depends on whether you believe this site or not- DRDO page
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfoc ... mament.htm
For meeting the present day tactical requirement of the Indian Army of a light weight, compact and better fire power small arms, a family of Small Arms in 5.56 mm calibre (INSAS) and its family of ammunition have been developed. The family comprises Rifle (fixed and folding butt) effective up to 400 m, Light Machine Gun (fixed and foldable butt) effective up to 700 m, and Carbine effective up to 200 m range. The hallmark of the system is a large number of common components between the weapons of the family, all firing the same common ammunition. The ammunition with its superior ballistic design has better penetration capability than standard NATO rounds at ranges more than 500 m. The extensive use of plastic material for furniture items and heat resistant hand guard fabricated out of special composite material are the technologies exclusively developed for INSAS. The INSAS family of weapons is soldier friendly as it reduces logistics and simplifies training. The bulk production of weapon and ammunition has been successfully established at a number of Ordnance Factories. DRDO design has resulted into over Rs 5000 crores of production programme over a period of 10 years and this is a step forward towards self-reliance mission of the country.


Also this
http://www.rediff.com/news/jul/18army.htm
The INSAS ammunition is claimed to have outclassed the contemporary 5.56 mm North Atlantic Treaty Organisation rounds. An official release, quoting trials of NATO ammunition from five countries on the INSAS by infantry schools, said, "The overall performance of INSAS ammunition was superior in respect of accuracy, consistency, and penetration''.



bennedose
Posts: 930
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:30 pm

Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Postby bennedose » Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:11 pm

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/Loot ... 91898.html
Worse, vast quantities of OFB-produced ammunition too have been looted. This includes steel-core ammunition (where the bullet has steel inside instead of lead) made at OFB factories in Kirkee and Warangaon. The steel core gives the bullet a lethal velocity capable of shattering level-III bullet proof jackets. The Ministry of Home Affairs recently indented for 59,000 BP jackets which are useless against INSAS steel core ammunition. "Our steel core ammunition can penetrate even three mm mild steel sheets," OFB officials say.


Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/Loot ... 91898.html



User avatar
gladiatorgarg
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:31 pm
Location: india

Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Postby gladiatorgarg » Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:27 pm

TAR has been procured for the SF but they have several other top of the line assault rifle in their kitty as well...we are waiting for the upgraded INSAS rifle and carbine...trials are on...this weapon has withstood the harsh Indian terrain for sure...its quite an achievement in itself...very few rifles have achieved it and I have been part of few trials...though INSAS needs a lot of improvement but dont write it off...we have been fighting off our enemies with this rifle for a long time now...one can ask them how it tastes :twisted: but very few will be alive to tell you that actually :)



TwoRivers
Posts: 1526
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:11 pm
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska

Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Postby TwoRivers » Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:51 am

[quote="bennedose"]
[quote]Worse, vast quantities of OFB-produced ammunition too have been looted. This includes steel-core ammunition (where the bullet has steel inside instead of lead) made at OFB factories in Kirkee and Warangaon. The steel core gives the bullet a lethal velocity capable of shattering level-III bullet proof jackets. The Ministry of Home Affairs recently indented for 59,000 BP jackets which are useless against INSAS steel core ammunition. "Our steel core ammunition can penetrate even three mm mild steel sheets," OFB officials say.[quote]

It's amazing how much nonsense gets printed. A steel core does not, can not, increase velocity unless it reduces bullet weight. And, all 5.56x45 Nato ball ammo will penetrate body armor at normal engagement ranges. And what the heck is "lethal velocity"? A .22 RF at less than 300 meters per second can certainly be lethal.



bennedose
Posts: 930
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:30 pm

Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Postby bennedose » Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:04 am

TwoRivers wrote:
It's amazing how much nonsense gets printed. A steel core does not, can not, increase velocity unless it reduces bullet weight. And, all 5.56x45 Nato ball ammo will penetrate body armor at normal engagement ranges. And what the heck is "lethal velocity"? A .22 RF at less than 300 meters per second can certainly be lethal.

LOL :lol:

But the velocity-penetration confusion occurs here as well among our own friends on IFG

Having said that, if one wants to be a physics Nazi then two additional points must be taken into account:

1. The minute you replace any proportion lead with an equal volume of steel in a bullet, the lower specific gravity of steel ensures that the bullet will inevitably be lighter (have less mass) than a pure lead bullet. A lighter bullet in turn wil inevitably exit with a higher muzzle velocity given the same propellant energy.

2. Since steel is more resistant than lead to deformation under stress, a steel core bullet is less likely to flatten out as much as a pure lead bullet leading to dissipation of energy over a larger area. A concentration of the same energy over a smaller area means higher penetration.



TwoRivers
Posts: 1526
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:11 pm
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska

Re: The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise

Postby TwoRivers » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:48 am

1. True enough. A steel core bullet of the same shape will be lighter, and can be shot at correspondingly higher velocity. Which it will also lose faster than a heavier bullet, making it less efficient at longer range, and having a different trajectory. That would require new sight graduations. It will also then have less momentum, which is required for penetration. A steel core bullet of the same weight would have to be considerably longer, in turn requiring a shorter rifling twist. The options are limited. Also, the claim was made in this topic that the Indian bullet was heavier than the standard Nato bullet, hence deadlier. Which is it now? Heavier, or steel core and lighter? In any case, the standard 62 grain Nato ball has a a steel "penetrator" in the tip.

2. Since pure lead bullets are not relevant to a discussion of military ball ammunition, this point is moot.




Return to “Rifles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests