Indians For Guns

ngrewal wrote:Now army is doing trails for selecting another rifle...bet on M4 Colt the show starts again

No Navi, I think the Israelis are ahead in the race already.....

TC

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... IIndiaNews

CRPF asks govt to replace all its Insas guns with AK rifles :Nov 13, 2014

NEW DELHI: At a time when Prime Minister Narendra Modi is stressing on 'Make in India', CRPF has said bye-bye to locally made Insas rifles. The largest force fighting Maoists has written to the government to replace all Insas rifles it uses with AK (47/56) rifles because of the former's poor operational quality.

CRPF has said the gun gets frequently jammed at crucial times and is a danger to the life of jawans during anti-Naxal and anti-insurgency operations. The move, if approved by the government, would mean massive procurement of AK guns in the years to come as over 40% of guns used by the three lakh strong force are Insas rifles.

"We have sent a proposal to the government that all Insas rifles with the force be replaced by AK rifles. The Insas has a problem of jamming. Compared to AK and X-95 guns, Insas fails far more frequently. While the error percentage in AK guns is 0.02%, in Insas it is 3%," CRPF DG Dilip Trivedi said.

Sources said the force is expected to use the inferior quality Insas guns just because it is indigenously produced by Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO). "The government must ponder if it's okay to lose the lives of our jawans to promote a faulty indigenous gun," said another CRPF officer.

The move is a fallout of the government's push to the forces to launch all-out offensive against Maoists. This has resulted in the force increasingly using area weapons such as 81 mm mortar guns and automatic grenade launchers. "While we had these guns earlier, we used them sparingly. However, now we have done extensive training with BSF and are using them more and more," Trivedi said.

Mine protected vehicles (MPVs), however, are not finding favour with the force with the vehicles being increasingly proving ineffective due to the massiveamount of explosives used by Maoists in a mine. Ironically, they are now being used on those roads which have been checked by a road opening party and cleared of mines. "MPVs are to be used sparingly and only when we are sure there is no mine under the road. Maoists are using as much as 100 kg of explosives in a mine, making the utility of MPVs ineffective," Trivedi said.

TC wrote:

ngrewal wrote:Now army is doing trails for selecting another rifle...bet on M4 Colt the show starts again

No Navi, I think the Israelis are ahead in the race already.....

TC

Why are we placing all our eggs in Israeli basket?? Then

I used to own a Norinco SKS which is a chinese copy of the AK

This was sitting in my gun safe for 2 years, gathering dust. I took it to the range and it fired the same as it used to 2 years back.
Also I was a bit lazy to clean it and still no issues with the grouping.

No. The SKS, regardless of where it is made is not a copy of the AK. The SKS and AK-47 are two totally different rifles. And no relation to the INSAS.

The sks is made on the same basis as the ak. Difference is in the calibre. Norinco is a chinese company which makes these two rifles. There are ways to modify the mechanism in an sks so tht it can be full auto. If u take apart a sks and an ak there is not much difference. While comparing it to insas i wanted to say tht dont try to reinvent the wheel...

The SKS is a Soviet semi-automatic carbine chambered for the 7.62×39mm round, designed in 1943 by Sergei Gavrilovich Simonov. The SKS was made first, then came the AK where Kalashnikov probably drew a lot of inspiration from the SKS, and hence the similarities.

cdexter wrote:The sks is made on the same basis as the ak. Difference is in the calibre. Norinco is a chinese company which makes these two rifles. There are ways to modify the mechanism in an sks so tht it can be full auto. If u take apart a sks and an ak there is not much difference. While comparing it to insas i wanted to say tht dont try to reinvent the wheel...

You really should check your facts before making such ignorant claims. The SKS uses a locking system totally different from the AK's, it also never was a selective fire rifle. That you can turn a semi-auto into a full-auto by modifying the trigger assembly is really not germane to the topic. Aside from being illegal just about every place. And both SKS and AK-47 are chambered for the 7.62x39mm cartridge.

cdexter wrote:The sks is made on the same basis as the ak. Difference is in the calibre. Norinco is a chinese company which makes these two rifles. There are ways to modify the mechanism in an sks so tht it can be full auto. If u take apart a sks and an ak there is not much difference. While comparing it to insas i wanted to say tht dont try to reinvent the wheel...

The SKS is a tipping block action that works something like the Winchester Model 12 shotgun and the Savage Model 99 lever action.

The AK is a rotary bolt design that works more or less like a Swiss K31 or Austro-Hungarian M95 straight pull.

The bolt rotates to lock in an AK, but only moves up and down to lock in an SKS.

The SKS worked on a similar principle to the SVT Tokarev semiautomatic rifle, which was the Soviet Union's answer to the USA's M1 Garand.

The reason the SKS was replaced as the Soviet Union's front line assault rifle is because it didn't work too well as a full-auto weapon. The AK did, so it replaced the SKS as the front line weapon. Then, the Soviets, as they usually did, exported the older technology to other nations, like China, Yugoslavia, Albania, and Romania. Even North Vietnam got into the making of them.

A recent article on the ugly insas quoting this thread as a reference. Most of the issues mentioned were initial teething problems which were fixed. So it's only a partly accurate writeup but whatever.



"India’s Anti-Terror Troops Despise Their Assault Rifle

Soldiers would prefer AKs to this piece of junk
by ROBERT BECKHUSEN

In 1999, the Indian Army fought a three-month-long undeclared war with Pakistan. It was also the combat debut of India’s new Insas battle rifle.

The Insas is a very bad rifle.

During the conflict—waged over the disputed and mountainous Kargil district in the province of Kashmir—the Indian troops’ rifles jammed up, and their cheap, 20-round plastic magazines cracked in the cold weather.

To make a terrible weapon worse, the Insas had a habit of spraying oil directly onto the handler’s face and eyes.
Designed to shoot in semi-automatic and three-round burst modes, some soldiers would pull the trigger, and the gun would unexpectedly spray rounds like a fully automatic.

Soldiers also preferred the heavier 7.62-millimeter rounds in the FAL rifle, which the Insas and its 5.56-millimeter rounds replaced.

Then in 2005, Maoist rebels attacked a Nepalese army base. The Nepalese troops had Insas rifles bought from India. During the 10-hour-long battle, the rifles overheated and stopped working. The Maoists overran the base and killed 43 soldiers.

“Maybe the weapons we were using were not designed for a long fight,” Nepalese army Brig. Gen. Deepak Gurung said after the battle. “They malfunctioned.”



In November, India’s Central Reserve Police—which uses the rifle—finally had enough. The CRPF is a counter-insurgency force tasked with fighting Maoist rebels known as Naxalites in several eastern states.

“We have sent a proposal to the government that all Insas rifles with the force be replaced by AK rifles,” CRPF general director Dilip Trivedi told the Times of India. “The Insas has a problem of jamming. Compared to AK and X-95 guns, Insas fails far more frequently.”

Another CRPF soldier alleged New Delhi chose to “lose the lives of our jawans to promote a faulty indigenous gun,” he said, using the Indian term for a soldier.
The Insas make up almost half of the CRPF’s arsenal. That’s become an acute problem as Prime Minister Narendra Modi and the conservative Bharatiya Janata Party push the counter-insurgents to crack down hard on the Naxalites.

As part of this offensive, the CRPF is relying more on heavier weapons such as mortars and grenade launchers. At the same time, the Maoists are building bigger bombs to use against the CRPF’s armored, “mine-protected” vehicles.

But there’s larger reasons why the Insas is such an awful gun.

The main cause was a myopic obsession among the Indian military beginning in the 1980s about relying more on weapons made at home. The state-owned Ordnance Factories Board manufactures the Insas.



To be sure, India had practical needs for a new weapon. Well into the 1990s, the Indian Army and the country’s internal security forces relied on a mix of old, 1950s-era FALs, Lee-Enfields — first developed in the 1890s — and Russian-made AK-type rifles.

The Insas turned into a hybrid, combining features of both the FAL and the AK-47. But the result was an awkward weapon—and one prone to failure.

A few years ago, a pseudonymous Indian gun blogger( http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9131 ) inspected several of the rifles. Hoo boy, they’re a sight to behold.

There’s lots of redundant parts and features that seem to serve no purpose except to make the rifle more complicated and expensive to produce. Its plastic hand guard is wobbly. The gas cylinder—which powers the reloading mechanism—is prone to breaking.

The Insas is also “several times” more expensive than an AK, according to a 2012 report in The Hindu.

In addition to the plastic parts, there’s “four different kinds of metal, an amalgam almost guaranteed to impair their functioning in the extreme [mountainous] climates of Siachen and Rajasthan,” the paper added.

Nilkamal Plastics—the Indian plastic furniture giant—produces the crack-prone magazines.



“In the end it shoots fairly accurately and with reasonable reliability,” the gun blogger wrote. “But it’s plagued by shitty quality and needless refinements of dubious value.”

After the poor performance in the Kargil War, the Indian Army fixed some of the rifle’s flaws—such as the problem with the spraying oil. But the rifle still sucks.

Last year, the Army tested the Israeli Galil ACE, the American CM-901 Modular Carbine and the Italian ARX-160 rifles as a potential replacements. But it’ll still take years to swap out the Insas. And that’s a big if.

But remember what the counter-insurgency troops said. India could always buy more AKs."

One thing is for sure, the writer has never even seen the INSAS or fired any military rifle for that matter to draw a comparison. His lack of practical/first hand knowledge of the INSAS is too apparent. He has simply picked up bits and pieces from all over the net and woven this piece. I wouldn't pay any heed just because his name is Robert something. The internet is full of blokes who become experts on any subject overnight. Squeeze them hard and things start spilling over the floor

You guys will be surprised to know how much money Arms sellers, brokers and agencies that work as "middlemen" for hefty commission in international arms deals actually spend to get "reports" like these published. Know what I mean ?



TC

Teething problems of INSAS has been mostly resolved. Finish has never been a forte of DRDO with all their products looking remarkably worse than even a cheap chinese toy.
Most stoppage is attributable to piston getting stuck inside the cylinder, locally resolved by removing the upper hand guard.
Overheating.... almost all mil grade wpns including INSAS will continue to fire even when the barrel glows red hot. just have to aim slightly high because barrel droops when red hot.
Jamming of breech block etc is due to very high lvl of dirt/carbon accumulation. No soldier worth his salt would allow his weapon to get so dirty. will always clean the wpn before taking it out for operations, will clean thourougly before putting it for storage.
The requirement of AK 47 during counter terrorist operations especially in Jungles/built up area was felt not because it is better weapon, but mostly due to its compact size and folding butt which makes it easier to carry in restricted space and at the same time provide high fire power that a small carbine cannot.
Poor quality of the wpn is due to "Murphy's Law" which clearly states "Remember, your wpn is made by the lowest bidder"
cost of the rifle is high not because of the complexity of the wpn, but due to corruption.
iNSAS is a good rifle, Accurate, low recoil, high muzzle velocity, Small caliber (which means the rounds are small and light weight, which means a soldier can carry more number of amn into battle).

AK's in the hands of Paramilitary forces/Police is dangerous (except for the well trained cobra/commando, etc). Imagine the ill trained, who hardly get to practice in firing ranges (not their fault) firing full auto, in urban areas, trying to hit a single terrorist who is mixed with a crowd.

-- This is my rifle, this is my gun, one is for firing, one is for fun

Overheating.... almost all mil grade wpns including INSAS will continue to fire even when the barrel glows red hot. just have to aim slightly high because barrel droops when red hot.

If your barrel is that hot that it droops, your weapon is done for. The next round is going to blow out the "droopy" part of the barrel.

Poor quality of the wpn is due to "Murphy's Law" which clearly states "Remember, your wpn is made by the lowest bidder"

Actually, the only bidder and therein lies the problem.

The requirement of AK 47 during counter terrorist operations especially in Jungles/built up area was felt not because it is better weapon,

More likely because it just goes "bang" every time you pull the trigger.

AK's in the hands of Paramilitary forces/Police is dangerous (except for the well trained cobra/commando, etc). Imagine the ill trained, who hardly get to practice in firing ranges (not their fault) firing full auto, in urban areas, trying to hit a single terrorist who is mixed with a crowd.

The AK was designed to be handled by ill trained or poorly trained conscripts. Its simplicity is one of its virtues.
It is hardly going to do better or worse than any automatic weapon if you decide to shoot into a crowd.
The AK is also capable of being fired in the semi-auto mode in case you want to take careful aim at a single target.

A nine-year-old fighter waves his AK-47 assault rifle

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/ ... 56461.html

IN JUST 30 minutes, a young boy can master the use of an AK-47 machine gun. And a split second can turn him into a killer.....

Sad but true!

They should start selling the INSAS to civilians, we are conditioned to paying more for inferior quality stuff.
I quite liked the INSAS in the brief window that I had to shoot it. It was accurate though the cocking was inconvenient.
Wouldn't mind having one for shooting targets, really like the 5.56 round, strangely a round that the IOFB seems to make well.

Hasn't the Tavor already been introduced among the special forces?