Indians For Guns

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Well friend, I am extremely greatful 2 U for this useful post. It contains the type of info which an ordinary citizen in our country can only dream 2 get on the fire arms and the Army and their policies. Sites like Wiki only provide the basic info on such topics and leave the reader in ambiguity. I've been searching for something like this for the last 4 years.

Now comming to the point, I always knew that the insas was no match for other state of the art weapons such as the AK, M16, G36 etc. but I had no idea that it was so much crappy.

I visit the DEFENCE.PK forums regularly and some armymen (presently serving and retired) have also pointed out that the barrel of the INSAS rifle overheats on continous fire, Magzine Breaks (as Pointed by you) and the gun's hitting power is nowhere near that of the AK(although the AK does have a bigger 7.62mm round)
Also there is the problem of oil leak in the INSAS.

Wiki also pointed out that during the Kargil Conflict these guns regularly jammed and also the safty switch constantly broke.
Also the army loaths this gun for its noise during firing. The Nepalese army even asked the Indian govt. to Cancel the order of these rifles after experiencing the inferior quality of the INSAS.


Now the most important part:
THIS ONE IS ESPECIALLY FOR THOSE WHO WROTE ABOUT BEING UNPATRIOTIC ETC.

First of all I would like to tell you guys that knowing about the inferior quality of arms that our security forces use/produced in our country and based on that passing a HONEST judgement is nothing unpatriotic.

To me it shows the man's concern for the wellbeing of the men at arms and contempt for those resposible for approving such weapons for use.

Honestly, I have began to accept the fact that maybe we (INDIANS) are not suitable to build state of the art weapons.
Instead of being angry just face the truth.

I would also like to apprise you guys about the other defence blunders :

1. Even thoug some of my countrymen like to think that the next conflict eith PAKISTAN would be a swift operation but fats from the latest standoff speak otherwise. During 2002 when operation PARAKRAM was launched by India to prepare for a full scale war with Pakistan (which didn't take place), apart fom the obvious delays in deploying of the forces, some other intersting things happened:
a. The 30% of 5.56mm ammo with the army then, when tested did not fire also the Locally made ammo for the T72s ,which formed the backbone of our armoured columns, refused to fire(Source is an article in the TOI).

b. The ammo which is locally made for the T90s tanks is not compatible with the LRF on-board

Source ajaishuklablogspot.com

MUST READ also the corrupion involved in it.

Lastly I will point out the obvious( as apparent to anyone who has read the above blog with a certain degree of abservation) that the engineers and Designers recruited by the Govt. in these OFBs do nothing but COPY the already exising designs and are not even good at that. They usually try to Take the best out of the existing designs and "assemble" them together and the end product U get is a DUD. Also the Govt doesn't want to allow private sector in this field for reasons known only to them.

You take the example of the INSAS rifle(apparent from the above blog)

Arjun tank(The basic designing of the tank was Done by a German Engineer who made the Lepord tank, and thus the arjun looks the same as the lepord on first sight.
Our 'GENIUSES' at the DRDO haven't even changed the design(externally) in 36 years)

The fighter named MARUT(Again designed by the German Engineer Kurt Tank)

The Hal Dhruv(90% parts of dhruv are Imported)

The IFV abhay(God Knows what happened to it?) seems like an amalgamation of the Bradley and the BMP with a british WW2 40mm Cannon(Look Carefully)

The LCH looks like an unsuccessful copy of the COMANCHE.

As far as patriotism is concerned, believe me none of you have ever thought about the country, its difficulties and their solutions more than I have.
I love the nation, I respect its armed forces but I hate the PIOUS MORONS that live in it.
I hate the government for its policies and its lineancy in implementing the laws, the people for being indifferent towards the problems of the nations and above all the LAWMAKERS who are not even worthy of being called humans(corrupt Burocrats and Netas)
I loathe the people of India(Most of them) because for trivial issues like RELIGION(by the way I'm an atheist) you'll see them marching on the streets, killing, rioting and doing all sorts of barbarric stuff but when it comes to the major problems of Corruption, Unjust Policies of the Govt. (like payhike for the ministers, rise of prices when they can be easily controlled, Mumbai crisis, Quota etc) they choose to sit in their homes acting as if nothig happened.

Last word is that I would love to see an indian army using the INSAS(as was originally intended) as its main rifle, the arjun as its MBT, Lch as a close support gunship, Abhay replacing the Bmp etc BUT IN MY LIFETIME AND NOT IN THEIR CURRENT FORM.

AND TO ANYONE FROM THE DRDO OR THE DEFENCE MINISTRY RELATED INDISTRY, IF YOU CANT DELIVER QUIT
HIRE PEOPLE ON THE BASIS OF THEIR TALLENT AND NOT ON THE MARKS SCORED IN THE ENTERANCE TEST, REMOVE BANS IMPLEMENTED ON THE PUBLIC, MORE THAN ONCE IN HISTORY HAS A CIVILIAN OUTCLASSED THE EXPERTS.

I AM VERY PASSONATE ABOUT GUNS AND AM ALSO A LAW ABIDING CITIZEN THUS EVEN THOUGH I WANTED TO MAKE WEAPONS(WHICH I AM FULLY CAPABLE OF) CAN NEVER DO NEITHER COULD THE OTHERS.

THINK ABOUT WHAT I SAID AND DO LEAVE A REPLY

The Indian

Do make a post in welcome and introduce yourself and read the rules. This board just sticks to Guns and their review what else DRDO does is beyond this place realm or discussion Dont quite understand the comment "Pious Morons".

The Indian wrote: Also there is the problem of oil leak in the INSAS.

Wiki also pointed out that during the Kargil Conflict these guns regularly jammed and also the safty switch constantly broke.
Also the army loaths this gun for its noise during firing.

Hi Indian,

Welcome to IFG.... scary reading your post....

While not exactly speaking for the INSAS or putting you down, to be fair...the thing about the oil leak... I think its mostly nonsensical whining by less than well-versed troops....similar to that much publicized quote by a 'commando' that the MP5 is more "lethal' than an AK....post 26-11.

There is no component in the INSAS or any modern firearm that requires so much oil that leaks become an issue. It certainly doesn't have an oil tank like the Japanese and Italian MGs of WWII...

Probably a bunch of troops over-oiled their new guns and got sprayed with oil when they opened fire...as any gun would in such circumstances.

The complaint about the noise is largely invalid. The SLR and AK are just as or much noisier. - Non issue. Its like asking for silent grenades.

I think its just a very overpriced, poorly made weapon surrounded by an aura of hopeless bureaucratic mismanagement.

Do introduce yourself.

regards,
cc

I personally feel that the INSAS rifle su**s!! It has been plagued with issues since its induction in 1998..! Also it isn't too reliable also. To quote Wikipedia
The INSAS saw combat during the 1999 Kargil conflict with Pakistan. According to the Times of India, the rifle encountered some reliability problems in the very cold climate in which the conflict took place. Due to the cold weather, the rifle would jam occasionally and the polymer magazines would crack.[3] There were also cases where the rifle would fire on full automatic, while in three-round burst fire mode.[3] According to the manufacturers, these problems have been fixed.
After King Gyanendra seized power, relations between India and Nepal cooled, with India refusing to grant military aid. There were reports that the rifle malfunctioned in a gunbattle with Maoist insurgents, leading to many casualties.[4] This was refuted by the Indian embassy in Nepal, trials conducted before the Nepalese Army showed that the rifle was satisfactory and that the malfunctions had been due to poor handling and improper cleaning of the rifle by Nepalese soldiers. Nepalese soldiers were still not satisfied as the rifle malfunctioned when used extensively for prolonged periods at war or during trainings.[4] These drawbacks were said to have been fixed after the Kargil Conflict in 1999.
Also the magazines are known to have cracked in Siachen .. In short i feel we are paying more for a rifles which is less capable that the AK series of assault rifles. We should trash INSAS and adopt the AK rifles straightaway...They are more powerful as well as damn reliable!!

very informative,appreciate your effort sir.i read in the papers that we are importing assault rifles is that true.
Thank's again CC

cheer's !

nice post quite indetail,insas has a lot of ,, let's just say life threating problems. Glad we are importing for sake of troops

Indian: Fixing the overheating problem during sustained fire, and the noise problem is easily done. All that is required is a repeal of the law of physics.
Can any thinking person really believe that a short light barrel is not going to get hot during sustained fire; or is not going to be noisy, when firing a rifle cartridge?
As for plastics, yes they get brittle when cold. Designers around the world outside the arctic regions make that mistake. But, a person living in a tropical, or temperate, climate can not possible imagine the effect of truly cold high altitude/arctic temperatures. So perhaps they should be forgiven. Or maybe not. Because those conditions can be reproduced in the lab. If you were informed enough to know of them. But when you reach for a wool sweater when the temperature drops to 75 degrees F, you just don't fathom that.

okay you cant make a decent rifle. but what on earth inspires you to make it so ugly? Such a depressing piece . the 200 year old .303 looks way better.

Great,,,thanks for the information,,,,

What 200 year old .303 ?

Converted Brown Bess ???

An almost professional, no BS review i would say....
You're good!! sir...

I have used INSAS rifle and the AK 47 as well. In my opinion the government should rather focus on developing something closer to the AK rather than clinging on to the INSAS rifles. Recently the panel formed for the CRPF revamp has also suggested that the force needs more AKs than INSAS to combat the Naxalites.

This seems to be the "newest"(2009) improved 1B1 version of INSAS. Not sure about the "improved" part but finish still is rudimentary at best with that hammered ugly piece to the rear of the receiver cover. But as per this gentleman on a famous forum, who by the way gives updated info & never really accepts the pathetic finish of INSAS, claims that all pending issues(including finish!) were solved in the new version. This seems yet to be distributed en masse to frontline or any kind of force. It's said they are waiting for the older ones to fully wear out!

INSAS Evolution = INSAS 1B, INSAS 1B1, INSAS 1B1 Improved



Image courtesy:http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indi ... rbine.html

About the stopping power of current INSAS:

When people talk about this that 5.56mm is not for kill, they dont know much about 5.56mm, There are many kind of 5.56mm and the one India use is more lethal than NATO, When introduce it used SS109 Nato rounds which were lighter and not capable of killing, Now INSAS use OFB 64gr(77gr too) 5.56mm ammo from its 18.3inch barrel and kills..

Yes it might be accurate, reliable & gets the job done but that shouldn't stop them from making it better looking. AK is a cult evergreen classic, and the rivety design should stay with that. It's all covered up in modern firearms & they all do work reliable enough in their current forms. This is the age of sleeker looking arms & CIP should've gone in that direction.

Atleast they should give it a full flat black finish, and not the glossy and grey ones. Even our armored vehicles can be seen sporting glossy paintjobs! Phosphate finish or whatever, it gotta be flat black. I guess they are yet to understand the real purpose of camo. The buttplate of even this 1B1 is chrome plated. Goodluck sneaking into a modern secured compound with that!

Atleast the orange furniture(GAWD! Orange color on a military firearm!) is gone. Good enough!

Now army is doing trails for selecting another rifle...bet on M4 Colt the show starts again