IOF 315 rifle and cartridge

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TwoRivers
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Re: IOF 315 rifle and cartridge

Post by TwoRivers » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:40 am

Vikram: Could be a well-travelled rifle, out to the colonies and back again after its owner's retirement; although there was some interest in Britain in that cartridge/case as well. One development was basically a target version, the .322 Swift, with a very long and pointed aerodynamic bullet. Cheers.

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315 IOF

Post by marksman » Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:14 pm

Gentlemen,
Yours truly cut his shooting teeth on a .315 IOF smellie action.. The year 1968. I should proudly admit that all the game legally possible in those times were taken with this trusty rifle without any hitch or complain. Probably I was too naive to know bad from good those days but it didn't hurt. I paid less then 80 paisa a pop then and it suited my pocket well. in fact, I was offered to take away any rifle or shotgun of a reputed English make by a friend from the royalty when the privy purses were withdrawn by GOI (1972). Yet decided to stay content with my trusty Smellie action. Actually rs.8/ a pop in a 30-06 or Rs.15/ for a .375 Magnum was something pretty much beyond my means then. I certainly could not have shot those calibers as much as I did with the IOF., standard quota of ammo then being 100 at a time and 500 a year in Mumbai. In fact, I have yet to be as proficient with my other rifle as I was with the .315. Even pigeons and crows (regrettably) were a fair game and I could compensate for it's parabolic trajectory at known distances as one would, after shooting thousands of pellets from one's favorite air rifle. More experienced hunters swore by it and claimed it downed some tough game quicker then a 30-06. I have been exposed to much finer fire arms since but the .315 IOF occupies a special place reserved in the corner of my heart. Although it falls short in some areas, It certainly has served a lot of shooters well, right from the days of Raaj and I'd be lying if I said I don't feel the pinch when it is bad mouthed by IFG members. This .315 IOF is an integral part of us commoners' sporting history.
Marksman

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hamiclar01
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Re: IOF 315 rifle and cartridge

Post by hamiclar01 » Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:48 pm

Vikram wrote:
winnie_the_pooh wrote:Vikram,

If it is not too much trouble, can you confirm if the magazine cut off in this rifle is the same as the one for the 303.Thanks
No problem, Winnie. I emailed the seller asking if they could confirm the year of manufacture.They don't know.Will email them about this and get back.

Best-
Vikram
I actually know these guys. If they don't manage to move this gun, the next time you're here, we could go have a look at it
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Vikram
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Re: IOF 315 rifle and cartridge

Post by Vikram » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:10 pm

Thanks,Anand.


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Vikram
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Grumpy
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Re: IOF 315 rifle and cartridge

Post by Grumpy » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:49 am

Lovely ginger coloured rifle innit Vickers ?
Otherwise no comment whatsoever by me on the subject of BSA .315s ( cos they don`t exist. LMAO. )

That little feller is still knocking seven shades of pooh out of his dead horse......You`ld think he would have realised by now........
Make a man a fire and he`ll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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Re: IOF 315 rifle and cartridge

Post by Vikram » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:40 am

The hoss doesn't look quite deader to me. :wink: :lol:
It ain’t over ’til it’s over! "Rocky,Rocky,Rocky....."

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Re: IOF 315 rifle and cartridge

Post by Grumpy » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:45 pm

I reckon that after being beaten with a big stick for month after month the horse is stone dead.........deader than a very dead thing.........Deader than a Monty Python parrot in fact.
Make a man a fire and he`ll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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ruger_rugged
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Re: IOF 315 rifle and cartridge

Post by ruger_rugged » Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:48 am

Do any guys here know about Canwest Trigger available in Canada/USA which can be installed on .315 Bore rifle. If so please share a detailed information on this.

Thanks

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Re: IOF 315 rifle and cartridge

Post by darwinmauser » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:49 pm

Vikram wrote:I recently came across this BSA rifle chambered for the 8X50R Mannlicher/.315 sale in UK.

http://tinyurl.com/ydyale6


One of the clear pictures I have seen of this model.

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Vikram

Vikram , I bought a Lee Speed from these people last year , it was a bit of an unfortunate buy ,I would advise a personal or independent inspection of a rifle before spending any money.

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Re: IOF 315 rifle and cartridge

Post by msandhu » Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:15 pm

Hi Guys,
Today i went to a local dealer in India and he showed me 2 guns (both .315). One was made in Ishapore and it looked crude as compared to the other one which he said is made in a new factory in trichanpalli in Tamil Nadu.
He informed me of a few improvements
First was the better finish and second was the steel bolt instead of aluminum bolt.
The price difference between them was also considerable ( around 15k)
I would like to know from informed members if this is true and also if the extra premium is worth it.

Regards
MSandhu

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Re: IOF 315 rifle and cartridge

Post by TwoRivers » Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:35 pm

msandhu wrote:Hi Guys,
Today i went to a local dealer in India and he showed me 2 guns (both .315). One was made in Ishapore and it looked crude as compared to the other one which he said is made in a new factory in trichanpalli in Tamil Nadu.
He informed me of a few improvements
First was the better finish and second was the steel bolt instead of aluminum bolt.
The price difference between them was also considerable ( around 15k)
I would like to know from informed members if this is true and also if the extra premium is worth it.

Regards
MSandhu
There is no such thing as a Lee bolt action with an aluminum bolt, not even in India. How did this nonsense get started?

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Re: IOF 315 rifle and cartridge

Post by winnie_the_pooh » Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:00 pm

TwoRivers wrote:There is no such thing as a Lee bolt action with an aluminum bolt, not even in India. How did this nonsense get started?
From the cheapo chrome plating on the bolt.
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences.

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Re: IOF 315 rifle and cartridge

Post by TwoRivers » Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:36 am

Winnie: Actually, that "cheapo", aka "industrial" chrome plating is more durable than the "purtier" kind. Doesn't flake off, either. I am sure it was well intended. But obviously no marketing dept. at IOF.

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Re: IOF 315 rifle and cartridge

Post by winnie_the_pooh » Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:06 am

Tworivers,

RFI chaps don't machine the bolt.It is chromed as it is after casting, with a rough outer surface.The chrome plating is durable but also harder than the receiver which is differentially hardened.The bolt then works on the receiver walls like a file.Remove the chrome plating and the bolt cycles much smoother with a bit of judicious lapping.The bolt is made of steel.No aluminum bolt is going to pass proof at 18 tons mean pressure.

MSandhu,

Buy the RFI rifle.No use paying 15,000/- for a better paint job,which is what the "better finish" of the Trichrapalli rifle is.The barrel has a strange profile and is in fact, thinner than the barrel of the RFI rifle which is pretty slim and whippy as it is.The one Trichrapalli rifle that I saw had the magazine follower with the tabs, that should be bent downwards bent in the reverse direction.Also they have eliminated the cut in the receiver wall that is there to eject fired cases.
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences.

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Re: IOF 315 rifle and cartridge

Post by Esskay » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:54 pm

Hello folks,
A new member here and have been following this thread with great interest. Found some information that may be of interest:
http://home.att.net/~vintage-gunlore/8x50r.htm

"

8x50R AUSTRIAN MANNLICHER

On June 20, 1886, the Austro-Hungarian government approved the adoption of the M1886 Mannlicher "straight-pull" rifle for its armed forces. This rifle was designed to use the large M77 11MM Werndl cartridge, using black powder to propel a 360-grain, paper-patched bullet at a muzzle velocity of about 1,440 fps.

By the time production of the new arms had begun, it was already apparent that the large caliber lead bullets then in widespread use were becoming obsolete. Some European nations (France and Portugal, for example) were already moving forward with military rifles using smaller caliber bullets (8MM) fired at higher velocities, with corresponding flatter trajectories and a wider range of "point blank" dangerous space.

Crown Prince Rudolph (Emperor Franz Josef's only son, and heir to the throne), acting in his position as the Austro-Hungarian Inspector of Infantry, was widely criticized as bearing responsibility for Austria-Hungary's decision to continue use of a heavy 11MM lead bullet, even after approving the adoption of a new rifle design (the M1886 Mannlicher "straight-pull").

(Rudolph's later star-crossed romance with a commoner, and their tragic deaths at a royal hunting lodge in 1889 - assumed to be a murder-suicide - has been the subject of a number of films, including "Mayerling," released in 1968 and starring Omar Sharif and Catherine Deneuve.)

As a result of experiments with smaller diameter bullets, the 8x50R Austrian cartridge was developed in the late 1880s for use in the M1888 Mannlicher "straight-pull" rifle - a simple redesign of the M1886.

The new 8x50R cartridge was originally loaded with black powder, and was designed to shoot a 244-grain round-nosed bullet with a lead core and a full metal jacket. Some sources indicate that the original official designation of this original M88 black powder cartridge was 8.2x53R.

The black powder propellant was soon changed to a new "semi-smokeless" powder, and then, in 1893, to an all smokeless, nitrocellulose powder. This improved M93 cartridge was used in the M1888/90 and M95 series of Austro-Hungarian longarms - including those employed by Siam, Greece, Bulgaria, and others - along with a number of South American countries.

Congressionalist rebel troops used captured M1888 Mannlicher rifles firing the 8x50R cartridge to win the Chilean Civil War of 1891 -- marking the time that modern small caliber repeating rifles were employed in combat.

Various sources indicate that the Model 1893 8x50R cartridge was designed to fire a .323" diameter, 244-grain round-nosed, jacketed bullet at a muzzle velocity of about 2,034 feet per second (620 meters per second). Smith indicates a working pressure of about 42,000 p.s.i. for this cartridge, although other sources list a working pressure of only 28,000 psi.

In its 1904 ammunition catalogue, the Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM) listed the "Mannlicher M88 Oesterreich" cartridge (DWM No. 358) with an empty case length of 50.60 mm, and a .3248" diameter (8.25 mm) round-nosed, 244-grain (15.8 gram) FMJ bullet.

The 8x50R was the principle cartridge of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in World War I, having seen previous service during the First and Second Balkan Wars. After World War I, this cartridge continued to see widespread service in Europe, Asia, South America and Africa. Rifles surrendered to Italy during and after World War I were used by Italy during World War II, and also by partisan units throughout southeastern Europe. Ethiopia, China, Czechoslovakia, Poland and Yugoslavia are also said to have either adopted or used this cartridge.

This headstamp is from an 8x50R cartridge manufactured in Bulgaria in 1935. This particular cartridge was Berdan-primed, and loaded with a .32325" diameter, 243.4-grain, round-nosed FMJ bullet over 39 grains of an unknown smokeless flake powder. The case is Berdan-primed. My own experience with these Bulgarian rounds resulted in chronographed velocities in the 1,950 fps range out of a M95 long rifle.

Reloading data is not readily available for this cartridge, although Phil Sharpe included a few loads in his classic "Complete Guide to Handloading."

When referring to this data, please bear in mind that DuPont's smokeless 17½ powder was later replaced by its 3031, and the recommended loads for these two powders can be assumed to be interchangeable. Likewise 4759 can be substituted for DuPont's old SR ("Sporting Rifle") 80. Bullets listed by Sharpe as "MC" are metal-covered, or jacketed (as opposed to cast or swaged lead bullets).

John J. Donnelly, in his "The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions" recommends a load of 27.9 grains of IMR4320 under a .323" diameter, 224-grain lead bullet.

These Sharpe and Donnelly load recomendations should be restricted to use in the M95 family of longarms, and not be used in M1888 or 1888/90 arms. The dropping wedge bolt locking system employed in the earlier guns was designed for use with black powder cartridges, and is not as strong as the later rotary bolt locking design employed in the M95s.

In his "Cartridges of the World" (7th Edition), Frank Barnes lists a number of loads -- all of which are stated to be safe in good condition M1888 rifles:

BULLET
(grs.)


POWDER


CHARGE


MUZZLE
VEL.


MUZZLE
ENERGY


COMMENTS

159 SP


IMR 3031


48


2460


2142


-

227 SP


IMR 3031


45


2040


2102


-

244 SP


IMR 3031


45


2010


2200


Approx. mil. load

244 Ball


FL


FL


2030


2240


-

196 SP


FL


FL


2310


2320


Hirtenberger sporting

Some sources indicate that empty Boxer-primed cases for reloading can easily be made by trimming and fire-forming 7.62x53/54 Russian cases. However, my own experience (using Lapua brass) was not successful: the head diameter of the Russian cases was considerably undersized, and the cases failed to fire-form enough in the head area. My recommendation is to go with Buffalo Arms 8x50R Austrian cases -- Boxer-primed, and made up from .45-70 brass. Unfortunately, bullets for reloading are another story. Although both .323" cast and jacketed bullets are readily available, I have been unable to locate any round-nosed bullets as heavy as the 244-grain originals. Another problem stems from the fact that most 8x50R bores have groove diameters closer to .330" - for which .323" bullets are quite undersized - a combination ill-suited for best accuracy.

Loading dies for this caliber are available from Huntington's (RCBS), and from CH Tool & Die/4D Custom Die Company - both likely designed for use with .323" bullets.

As of this writing, MidSouth Shooters Supply offers custom Lee bullet moulds for two different heavy 8MM bullets which should work well with this caliber.

Bear in mind though, that 8x50R cartridges must first be put into Mannlicher-style clips (referred to by some as "en bloc" clips , or "loading frames") before the cartridges can be loaded into the M1888, 1888/90 and 1895 longarms. The magazines in these guns cannot be loaded with loose cartridges.



The clip functions as part of the magazine assembly, and falls out of an opening in the bottom of the magazine housing after the last loaded round is chambered. Two types of clips are pictured: the Model 1888 clip, which is a scaled-down version of the clip used with the M1886 Mannlicher and its big 11MM cartridges (and has solid sides), and the Model 1890 clip (with cut-out side panels). These clips are interchangeable, and will work in any of the M1888, M1888/90, and M95 longarms -- including those M95s which were later modified to take the 8x56R Hungarian Mannlicher cartridge (sometimes referred to as the Austrian Model 30 or Hungarian Model 31 cartridge).

Note: The reloading information on these pages has been obtained from several sources, is provided for information only, and I assume no responsibility for its use.

Updated October 19, 2006

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