The odds of a 3.54 km shot!

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nitroex700
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The odds of a 3.54 km shot!

Post by nitroex700 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:50 pm

Guys there is this buzz about this Canadian sniper taking out an ISIS raghead with his TAC50 from an incredible 2.2 miles (=3540 km =3871 yd). In the thread below, first I will indulge in some nasty online plagiarism, letting a retd. US army major explain the nitty-gritties of a similar shot, then indulge in some number crunching and precision shooting geekdom of my own, later at night or tomorrow evening.. I hope the readers will like it! :)

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MAKING A 2700-YARD SHOT


by Major John L. Plaster, USA (ret)

Just how feasible is it to make a shot at 2700 yards?
A British sniper, Corporal Craig Harrison, recently set a new world record in Afghanistan by dropping a Taliban fighter at that distance plus 100 feet, besting the previous record set 8 years ago by Canadian Army sniper Robert Furlong, also in Afghanistan.

The London Times says the latest record distance is 8120 feet, fired with a .338 Lapua Magnum rifle, while Furlong’s was 7972 feet, fired with a .50 caliber rifle. Harrison’s distance reportedly was verified by a GPS reading.

I thought you’d find it interesting to see what goes into making such an extreme-range shot. Furlong used a McBros Tac 50 rifle while Harrison fired an AI .338 Lapua Magnum. I’ve fired both rifles, along with a host of .50 calibers and .338 Lapua Magnums, and personally own a Savage Model 110 BA in .338 Lapua Magnum. To calculate .338 Lapua Mag. exterior ballistics I’m using the Sierra Infinity V6 software for Black Hills Ammo’s excellent 300-grain load.

Can You Even See a Target at 2700 yards?
From time to time I’ve heard claims that Marine Sniper Carlos Hathcock could not possibly have made his famous Vietnam War 2500-yard shot because his target scope did not have enough magnification to see a target that far away -- and these more recent record shots were 200 yards further. Even among accomplished riflemen I’ve heard doubts you can even see a human through a scope at 1-1/2 miles. That’s where I began my research. Checking maps, I found a nearby lake that measured 1-1/2 miles, or 7920 feet, from shore-to-shore. Mounting a 10x fixed magnification scope on a tripod, through the scope I photographed a house on the far shore. Actually, the house was about 50 yards beyond the shoreline, making the distance slightly further than Furlong’s shot, and just short of British sniper Harrison’s shot. As this photo proves, even at 10x you can see a human-sized target and, as demonstrated in the blown up image, below, you could even determine whether the human was armed.

House at 2750 yds.
This is how a house looks at 2750 yards, viewed at 10x through a mil-dot reticle.

shooting_10_02.jpg

magnified reticle view of house
magnified reticle view demonstrates that a human’s height is about 2/3rd of a mil.

shooting_10_03.jpg

Inherent Accuracy of Rifle and Ammunition
Having seen that, indeed, a target can be seen through a scope at extreme range, how predictable is it that a shot could strike a target so far away? Let’s consider group-size against target-size at 2700 yards. A quality rifle firing quality ammo, using a quality scope, should shoot 1 MOA or better – meaning one inch or less at 100 yards. A one-inch group will have widened with distance, so that at 2700 yards, it has become 27 inches. Since a torso-sized target measures approximately 18 inches wide and 36-inches high, the 27-inch group is 9 inches wider than the target, but well within the 36-inch vertical area. Roughly, therefore, it could be said that simply looking at a one MOA group size, there’s about a 70% chance of striking the target at 2700 yards. If the rifle were grouping better, say 7/10th of an inch, or 0.7 MOA, its 2700-yard group would measure 18.9 inches – and in that case, assuming mechanical perfection and a perfect shooter with no consideration for crosswinds – the probability of a hit is nearly 100%. Interestingly, in all three of these shooting situations – Carlos Hathcock, Robert Furlong and Craig Harrison – the snipers did not score hits with their first round. Fortunately for them, at such extreme range an opponent cannot usually hear the muzzle blast and initially may not even realize he’s under fire, making follow-on shots possible. Interestingly, it takes 5.7 seconds for the .338 bullet to reach its target at 2700 yards.

Does Any Scope Have Enough Elevation to Reach 2700 Yards?
Here’s one aspect that the critics have correct – I am unaware of any scope made anywhere in the world with enough elevation to make a 2700-yard shot. Even with a 500-yard zero, the Black Hills projectile will impact 5,311 inches low at 2700 feet. Since one Minute of Angle equals 27 inches at 2700 yards, this means a shooter needs 196 MOA of elevation to hit at that distance. (5311 inches divided by 27 = 196 MOA) The most elevation I’ve come across on any scope is 140 MOA, which is the max elevation on the Millett LRS scope. However, that leaves you 56 Minutes short. But mount that scope on a 20 MOA base – which I have on my Savage .338 Lapua -- and you now have a total of 160 MOA – yet you’re still 36 MOA low. What then? With the LRS scope’s Mil-Dot bar reticle, you can squeeze out another 35 MOA by holding 5 mils over the target. Amazingly, you now are within 1 MOA of that incredible elevation. So, hold just a hair higher – and you have enough elevation! Corp. Harrison, who made the 2700-yard shot, told reporters, “I…aimed for extreme range of the weapon.” There’s no question -- he had to.

An Accurate Range Estimate
No less important than accuracy and sufficient elevation is an accurate range estimate – in fact, at such an extreme distance, 1-1/2 miles, a correct range estimate is crucial. In all three cases – Hathcock, Furlong and Harrison – their targets were beside or on prominent landmarks. In Hathcock’s case, it was a Viet Cong soldier beside a stream, while Furlong and Harrison fired at Taliban on facing ridgelines. A careful map analysis, alone, could have yielded a solid range estimate. What about ranging on other terrain? Manual and mental range estimation techniques – like the appearance of objects or dividing the distance into football-field lengths – are much too inaccurate for so great a distance. That leaves ranging with a laser. My Bushnell Fusion binoculars offer a maximum range of 1600 yards – great for most shooting -- while the military Vector laser binoculars only goes to 2000 meters or 2200 yards. Only the most powerful military lasers can reach to 2700 and, aside from their bulk, weight and cost ($13,000), they must be aimed with considerable precision to range accurately. As I have taught students in the past, “Aim your laser as carefully as you aim your rifle,” for best results. Indeed, earlier this year I was talking to a Special Ops Afghanistan vet who told me he had difficulty holding his laser on a truck at 2700 yards, much less on an individual enemy combatant. Steadiness is essential. Some laser rangefinders are compatible with the 1:20 coarse thread found on camera tripods, including my Bushnell Elite 1500 and Scout 1000. If no tripod is available, steady the laser on sandbags or whatever you have at hand – and laze the target several times to confirm that your beam is on the target and not something closer or further. And this brings us to an appreciation for the effect of even tiny errors at so great a distance. What if you are just 25 yards off? At 2700 yards, that .338 Lapua Magnum bullet’s arc is so steep that a 25-yard range estimation error will cause the projectile to impact TEN FEET short or beyond the target.

The Plunging Angle of Descent
But that’s not all. Just like firing downhill, at extreme distances a bullet’s steep plunge reduces the relative size of a target. Think of it this way: Let’s say you’re firing at a target at 100 yards which measures 36 inches high by 18 inches wide, or 648 square inches. At 300 yards or less your bullet flies fairly flat, so the target offers its entire 648-square-inch frontal area for impact. But when firing at 2700 yards, the angle of your bullet’s arc becomes very steep, so that, in relative terms, the impact area shrinks considerably – I’d say, with the bullet plunging down at 45 degrees, in relative terms that 648 square inches has shrunk by nearly one-half.

Wind Compensation
Fortunately for Corp. Harrison, wind was not an issue for his shot. As he told the London Times, “Conditions were perfect – no wind, mild weather, clear visibility.” At so great a distance, even a mild wind might make a shot impossible, and traveling so far, that bullet may have to pass through multiple winds of varying direction and velocity. But say there’s just one wind and it’s only 5 miles-per-hour. At 2700 yards a 5 MPH, 90-degree crosswind requires 244 inches of right or left compensation. If you were to dial that on a windage knob, that’s not too bad – only 9 MOA or 36 clicks on a ¼ MOA target knob. If you needed to fire faster and used the horizontal mil scale to hold right or left, you would hold exactly 2.5 mils – quite do-able. However, rarely would a sniper encounter in mountain country such ideal conditions as no wind, or a consistent, single wind. That’s where opportunity, or luck, enter the picture.

The Realm of Exotic Effects
When shooting beyond 1000 yards, long-range shooters begin to encounter exotic effects that are not an issue at closer ranges. The more common and best understood is Bullet Drift. A lot of attention is paid to bullet velocity but that bullet is also spinning, and at a considerable rate. Our Black Hills .338 Lapua Mag. projectile, with a muzzle velocity of 2800 FPS, exiting a barrel with a 1:12 rate-of-twist, is spinning at 168,000 RPMs. By the time the bullet has traveled 1000 yards, that tremendous rotation will cause the bullet to drift slightly in the direction it rotates – roughly one Minute of Angle. The only way to predict this effect at greater ranges is either to have tested a rifle and its load at those distances or to employ a reliable ballistic computer. In most cases, I suspect that snipers make their best guess and shoot. Less understood and less predictable is the Coriolis Effect. This is not an aerodynamic effect, but the slight pull of earth’s rotation on a bullet, pulling it a tiny bit right or left. Seldom considered by riflemen because it’s only a concern at extreme ranges, this deviation varies according to where the shooter is located, and the direction of his fire. It’s greatest on the poles and least on the equator, and the closer a shooter is to firing directly east or west, he can minimize its impact. However, again, calculating the effect requires a ballistic computer and, I suspect, most snipers make their best guess and take the shot. The day may come when all these factors and considerations are calculated automatically for a shooter. But having seen how much goes into such an extreme-range shot, I think you’ll share my appreciation for the amount of skill, knowledge and shooting experience required for today’s snipers to make these incredible shots. They have earned the respect of riflemen everywhere.

***************************************************************************************************************************************************

So this is about a 2700 yd shot. The shot we're so overly exited about is a 3871 yd one..! So let's start some number crunching.

Assuming a man 6ft high standing upright, providing full silhouette of his body about 1ft wide. Also, the length of his torso would be about double the width, i.e. 2ft.

Hence at 3870yd, the size of the 'man' in the scope is :
6ft@3870yd=0.52mil (whole body standing upright in full silhouette)

The size of the 'kill area' is:
2ft@3870yd=0.17mil x 1ft@3870yd=.09mil (torso)

THIS is an incredibly small area to aim and hit, or even see, especially in the burning hot temperatures of Middle East where the Mirage will turn the sight picture into blurry, hazy, constantly changing shape whose exact location will be even harder to determine.. Add to it the nasty kick from a 50BMG cartridge.. It is no coincidence that big bores are primarily used for anti material shots on large size targets...


Assuming that the shooter used top of the line Hornady A-Max bullets@2650fps with 1.050 G1 BC, the flight time will be just shy of 10 seconds. So that is 10 seconds for the wind to change direction and speed or the target to start tying his loose shoe laces..!

Also, most of such rounds will typically go subsonic between 2000-2500 yds depending on muzzle velocity & BC. So at 3870 yds, many airguns could shoot faster at muzzle! :P

Next up, later, the WIND... Coriolis, Spin drift, muzzle velocity change due to temperature variation, angle of descent of the bullet and some more factors... :)
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goodboy_mentor
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Re: The odds of a 3.54 km shot!

Post by goodboy_mentor » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:27 pm

Nitroex700, while I appreciate this thread and do not want to derail it, wondering what is the wisdom behind using a racial slur "raghead". A cursory search of the internet tells that "raghead is a racial or ethnic slur used for Arabs, Indian Sikhs and some other peoples, for wearing traditional headdress such as turbans or keffiyehs. Sometimes used generically for all Islamic nations."

If you see the pictures of people from Indian sub continent hardly even a century ago, almost every man wearing a turban, regardless of his religion or State. For example Swami Vivekananda used to wear a turban, are you trying to paint him also a raghead? The Bharat Ratna, Sir Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan, Vice President of India also wore turban, was he also a raghead? Were all the Kings of Indian sub continent ragheads? There is still tradition of wearing turban in various parts of Indian sub continent, for example Punjab, Rajasthan, Haryana, western Uttar Pradesh and many other States, are they all ragheads? Even Jesus Christ is believed to be wearing turban.

Sorry for the little digression, for those not aware of the original thread about 3.54 Kilometers long shot, this is the link https://www.indiansforguns.com/viewtopi ... 44&t=25219
"If my mother tongue is shaking the foundations of your State, it probably means that you built your State on my land" - Musa Anter, Kurdish writer, assassinated by the Turkish secret services in 1992

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Re: The odds of a 3.54 km shot!

Post by pistolero » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:11 pm

Nitroex waiting for the next thread
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Re: The odds of a 3.54 km shot!

Post by Alab Arsalan » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:18 pm

very good job bro very good :agree: , just look to this:
Canadian Sniper 2.2 mile Hit - SHOT ANALYSIS ~ Rex Reviews


8)

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Re: The odds of a 3.54 km shot!

Post by nitroex700 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:31 pm

pistolero wrote:Nitroex waiting for the next thread
Will try to finish the rest asap, with whatever little time work and family leave for pleasure... :D
Alab Arsalan wrote:very good job bro very good :agree: , just look to this:
Canadian Sniper 2.2 mile Hit - SHOT ANALYSIS ~ Rex Reviews
8)
Yes! Rex is a nice guy, even if a 'brand snob'.. I picked the same bullet as him for this thread, even though Barnes makes a slightly more 'slippery' bullet with 1.070 BC. Matching the bullet weight and cartridge loading as closely as possible to the barrel twist will be another factor here... I bet those guys are running custom loads in their guns....

@GBM: Boss you desperately need attention... Find a girlfriend or have a baby (if married)..! :lol:

Actually GBM is correct.
Please refrain from racial slurs and anything even resembling a personal attack. - Mod

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Re: The odds of a 3.54 km shot!

Post by goodboy_mentor » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:56 pm

nitroex700 wrote:@GBM: Boss you desperately need attention... Find a girlfriend or have a baby (if married)..! :lol:
This is just your personal opinion. Opinions are like ..........(fill in the appropriate words) :lol:
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Re: The odds of a 3.54 km shot!

Post by Machoman » Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:59 pm

Do you actually have time to google raghead ? :lol: you must be one of Hillary Clintons supporters.
goodboy_mentor wrote:Nitroex700, while I appreciate this thread and do not want to derail it, wondering what is the wisdom behind using a racial slur "raghead". A cursory search of the internet tells that "raghead is a racial or ethnic slur used for Arabs, Indian Sikhs and some other peoples, for wearing traditional headdress such as turbans or keffiyehs. Sometimes used generically for all Islamic nations."

If you see the pictures of people from Indian sub continent hardly even a century ago, almost every man wearing a turban, regardless of his religion or State. For example Swami Vivekananda used to wear a turban, are you trying to paint him also a raghead? The Bharat Ratna, Sir Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan, Vice President of India also wore turban, was he also a raghead? Were all the Kings of Indian sub continent ragheads? There is still tradition of wearing turban in various parts of Indian sub continent, for example Punjab, Rajasthan, Haryana, western Uttar Pradesh and many other States, are they all ragheads? Even Jesus Christ is believed to be wearing turban.

Sorry for the little digression, for those not aware of the original thread about 3.54 Kilometers long shot, this is the link https://www.indiansforguns.com/viewtopi ... 44&t=25219

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Re: The odds of a 3.54 km shot!

Post by xl_target » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:55 pm

Machoman wrote::lol: you must be one of Hillary Clintons supporters.
Them's fighting words, mister.
In certain areas of this country, you'll get punched in the face for insulting someone like that.
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Re: The odds of a 3.54 km shot!

Post by nitroex700 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:07 pm

Guys! Please keep the discussion to the topic, else, at least relevant to the shooting realm... Give me a few hours more, will update the rest along with a very wicked trick these Canadians have exploited to make this shot happen! :)

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Re: The odds of a 3.54 km shot!

Post by nitroex700 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:37 am

Ok Guys! Here is the second part of the thread...

Firing Solution:
Shot Location is assumed to be Mosul (36N43E roughly) - the current fighting hotspot and ISIS HQ.
Shooter is assumed to be shooting from the SW corner of city in a general NE direction towards the old city area which is currently under ISIS control. This has been done to reduce horizontal deflection for the shot.
Time of shot has been presumed to be afternoon to increase the chances of the hit due to reduced flight time.

Distance: 3871 yd
Slope angle: 0° (Assumed 0° since exact range to target is available.)
Latitude: 36° (Approximate Latitude of Mosul city)
Azimuth: 45°
Coriolis: 36°/45°

Time of Flight: 8.017 s
Impact Velocity: 954 fps
Energy on Target: 1515 ft-lbf
Trajectory Height: 520.4 ft
Vert Crosswind Def: 19” Up (1.58’ U)
Spin Drift: 191.2” Right (15.93’ R)
Coriolis Vert Def: 58.4” Up (4.87’ U)
Coriolis Hor Def: 46.0 Right (3.83’ R)
Angle of Descent: 40° approx

Vertical Drop: 7928” Up (660.67’) [= 56.9 MRAD] [= 568 Clicks]
Horizontal Def: 23” Left (1.92’) [= 0.2 MRAD] [= 2 Clicks]

Cartridge: Hornady A-MAX, 750.0 gr.
Bullet weight, grains: 750.0
Ballistic coefficient: 1.05 (G1)
Velocity, corrected to current temperature: 2820 fps
Muzzle Energy: 13243 ft-lbf
Gyroscopic stability Factor: 3.42

Rifle: TAC50
Twist Rate: 15” (Right hand)
Barrel Length: 29”

Scope: 5.25x56 S&B PMII
Zero Distance: 1000 yd
Scope height: 2”
Vert. click, MRAD: 0.1 (0.34 MOA)
Hor. click, MRAD: 0.1 (0.34 MOA)
Reticle: MilDot
Reticle Focal Plane : First Focal Plane (FFP)
Zeroing weather: Disabled (Assuming weapon was zeroed in same weather)

Weather:
Temperature F: 45℃ (113 °F)
Humidity : 10.0 %
Pressure: 1000.0 hPa
Wind speed: 7 kph / 19 kph (Gust)
Wind direction, degrees: 135.0 (SW)
Sound Speed: 1177 fps

Ballistic Table:
Hornady A-Max 750 gr.jpg
This is just the technical data that has been presented. Detailed analysis of the data will follow (or the experienced members can kindly chip in..).
Also, I have dropped ample hints for the 'trick' used by the Canadians to achieve the least horizontal deflection - let see if the members can explain exactly why and how it worked in their favour, making an impossible shot possible... :)

Added in 5 minutes 33 seconds:
Alab Arsalan wrote: just look to this:
Canadian Sniper 2.2 mile Hit - SHOT ANALYSIS
Check out some of the places where Rex and his ballistician geek assed up..! :twisted:
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Re: The odds of a 3.54 km shot!

Post by pistolero » Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:28 pm

Keep it coming!
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Re: The odds of a 3.54 km shot!

Post by russianshooter » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:04 am

shoot russian lobaev 3400 m


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