Restoring an American classic : The Remington Rolling Block

[TC]

Very nice, the rifle is very pretty and performs well. You should be very proud of it. thanks for the report, loved the pics & video's.

Herb

Thank you so much Herb. I am deeply touched.
Well, I did the restoration to pursue my passion for guns. Pride never knocked on my door, till the wonderful people at IFG rained praises on me.
Your reaction is my reward.


I feel blessed.
TC

[TC]

Great, at the range report, excellent pictures (conveyed the earthy reality of the institution) and authentic video TC - good job!

The shots sounded very quiet, I was surprised especially as it was indoors, in an enclosed space. I liked the close up of the action and ejection of the case, very cool - Jabbar Bhai did his best with the camera. Would love to have an even closer look at the movement, with a renewed loading and ejection video perhaps, when you have a chance, at home?

Question: how do you explain the keyholes? I am not familiar with this phenomenon.

The refinished rifle looks really beautiful at the range, amazing restoration job TC!

Kalyan Da, believe me your smiling face kept flashing around me the moment I hit the range. Tried to figure out how to take the hundred yard shot (referring to the wild West film clip you posted earlier in this thread) with this tiny rifle and blow away the smoke as you suggested
Thank you so much for still liking the video although I couldn't do any of that at this range.

Coming to the technical points. You are correct about the sound. Excellent ears I must say
Unlike bolt action rifles, the rolling block doesn't completely enclose the breech and rear of the cartridge. The rotating breech block simply rests against the chamber. As a result, some gas surely bleeds through the chamber area I guess. This may lead to lesser report.
But more importantly the ammo I was shooting while the video was being shot was old KF. These were very old and the powder had caught moisture. I realized this only when I fired a few shots at the range. The sound makes it clear. The rounds had lost so much power that some of the slugs keyholed into the paper. In comparison, the ELey, Lapua and Neroxin sounded loud and made groups.

I will surely take a better and closer video of the action (with live ammo if possible) and post as soon as I can. That's a promise.
Thank you again for being so supportive.


TC

[TC]

Hi TC!
> Congrats!
> Must have been a real pleasure to shoot the Remington Rolling Block especially after you have so painstakingly restored it...the honor it deserves
> The key-holing is a bit of mystery....how does it happen?

Briha

Thank you so so much Brihaji. You always stood like a pillar of support.
Since you have already goggled to find the secret behind a keyhole all I want to add is exposure to moisture affects the powder and weakens its power. In such a scenario the projectile travels at a much lesser velocity and can make a keyhole when it is losing power.
I was lucky that one of these slugs didn't get stuck inside the barrel.

I showed bad judgement and made a unforgivable mistake, by firing such old ammo in a rifle that is more than 110 years old and has already lost some grooves after letting through a million rounds may be, as I mentioned at the very beginning. God knows what happened to me at that moment. I shot at least 10 of those rounds. Bad of me.

Thanks again Sir

TC

[timmy]

TC, watching the videos causes me to remember, many years ago, visiting a rifle shop in Montana. I would get off of work and walk over, and the owner would sit in the back of the store on a slow day, shooting a little Stevens falling block at a bullet trap under the front window. One could hear the "snap" of the shots when walking to the entrance, and there would be the odor of burning powder to greet one upon entry.

I'll bet you were the hit of the day when you showed up and blazed away!

I am thinking what an ideal little gun that would be to take to a dump. When I was young, we'd go to the dump to shoot rats and cans. The best were aerosol cans, because in the hot sun they would take off lilt little rockets when hit.

Sorry for going on -- your videos capture a great day to remember! Congratulations!

[TwoRivers]

[quote="TC"]


Unlike bolt action rifles, the rolling block doesn't completely enclose the breech and rear of the cartridge. The rotating breech block simply rests against the chamber. As a result, some gas surely bleeds through the chamber area I guess. This may lead to lesser report.


TC[quote]

No, TC. Only as long as the hammer is in the cocked position. The moment the hammer starts to fall its shoulder rolls under the breech block and locks it. With hammer forward, the breech block is locked and cannot move. And, the base of the case is completely covered and blocked by the breech block. If it were not, every fired case would self eject back into your face.

In any case, it is not the bolt, but the case that provides the gas seal in a cartridge firearm. (Those firing caseless ammunition excepted. But those are not on the market.)

[TC]

TC, watching the videos causes me to remember, many years ago, visiting a rifle shop in Montana. I would get off of work and walk over, and the owner would sit in the back of the store on a slow day, shooting a little Stevens falling block at a bullet trap under the front window. One could hear the "snap" of the shots when walking to the entrance, and there would be the odor of burning powder to greet one upon entry.

I'll bet you were the hit of the day when you showed up and blazed away!

I am thinking what an ideal little gun that would be to take to a dump. When I was young, we'd go to the dump to shoot rats and cans. The best were aerosol cans, because in the hot sun they would take off lilt little rockets when hit.

Sorry for going on -- your videos capture a great day to remember! Congratulations!

Timmy what a lovely memory to share. I can almost visualize the man, shooting the Stevens all day. And the sweet smell of gunpowder greeting every visitor.
Yes I was a hit that day and especially among the younger lot that hasn't seen too many guns from this era. None at all, in fact, in real life. A young chap in his 20s walked up to me hesitatingly (he never saw me before and must be a new member) and asked: "Sir will you please let me hold the weapon and if you don't mind, can I fire two shots." I laughed and have him the rifle, showed him how to load and fire and have him some ammo. The smile on his face was nothing short of a reward.

Well, visiting a dumpyard with a rifle would surely land me in jail in Kolkata but I get what you are saying. Yes, this is the ideal companion for a lazy afternoon.
You mentioned aerosol cans before also. Got to try it now... will go through the lady's cabinet when she is not around

Now I am going on
Thank you once again my friend


TC

[TC]

Unlike bolt action rifles, the rolling block doesn't completely enclose the breech and rear of the cartridge. The rotating breech block simply rests against the chamber. As a result, some gas surely bleeds through the chamber area I guess. This may lead to lesser report.


TC

No, TC. Only as long as the hammer is in the cocked position. The moment the hammer starts to fall its shoulder rolls under the breech block and locks it. With hammer forward, the breech block is locked and cannot move. And, the base of the case is completely covered and blocked by the breech block. If it were not, every fired case would self eject back into your face.

In any case, it is not the bolt, but the case that provides the gas seal in a cartridge firearm. (Those firing caseless ammunition excepted. But those are not on the market.)

Two Rivers,

It is true that the hammer locks the breech block while falling and completely locks it when down.

However, having disassembled and assembled this particular No 4 numerous times in these months and after examining the wear and tear (something that is making the little differences between theory and practice apparent to my eyes) I have come to a few conclusions.

In the No 4, the hammer is powered by a rather strong spring - a thick, tempered leaf. The trigger, extractor and breech block, on the other hand, are provided pressure (I rather used the word support) by the three arms of a little curiously shaped spring. This three-arm leaf spring, in my experience, is the most intriguing component of the Number 4 and cannot be found in any other rolling block that handle more powerful cartridges. Sadly, in my rifle, it's three arms cannot be as strong as it used to be. But luckily the action is still tight.

The chamber itself seems to have been polished quite a few times by people who owned and used this rifle for 110 years or so. Cartridges don't go in with a snug and tight push as you might expect from a rifle out of the factory. Its "easy going" you might say if you watch the video.

Add to that wear and tear and repairs to the extractor which led to loose fit and no capability to throw out the empties. I had to weld metal to it to get things right and make it rock against spring pressure, as I mentioned at the beginning of this post.

All this, tells my little knowledge in firearms, has created an air passage through the breech end, not much, just a little, narrow and invisible to the naked eye. Yet, it is wide enough to account for that lack of "crack" when a round is being fired. The barrel, despite erosion in the grooves is still good enough - as the target papers show - and the muzzle end is intact. Not the slightest sign of bell mouth.

So, I am yet to find a second explanation to the "less noise" phenomenon even while using high velocity hollow points that deliver a distinctive crack.
Would be obliged if you could help.

Regards
TC

[TwoRivers]

TC: No breech is air tight. And, no air in there to escape, only hot gas. And it is this hot gas under high pressure that presses the case wall against the chamber and prevents the gases from escaping to the rear. While I can make no statement as to the condition of your rifle's chamber, the obvious conclusion would be that these particular cartridges were stored under humid conditions. I am sure they would perform the same way in another rifle. Don't blame your rifle, it's the cartridges. Cheers.

[timmy]

I'll guarantee you, if hot gas is leaking out of the chamber, you will know it immediately and unpleasantly!

The cartridge case is often looked at as something different from the gun, but it is actually an integral part of the gun and the gun's system. It's purpose (among others) is to seal the chamber. Even though it fits loosely, when the gun is fired, hot, expanding gasses will seal the breech. If this does not happen because the chamber is too large, the case will fail somewhere and hot, expanding gasses under great pressure (even in shotguns and .22s) will come out to greet you.

This will usually happen when the chamber is too large or headspace is excessive. The hot gasses will expand the case beyond the ability of the brass to stretch that far, and the case will fail. Afterwards, you will see a split or even a full separation.

[xl_target]

Yup and that is why you'll hear me periodically harping about wearing eye protection of some kind when shooting.

[ckkalyan]

After what the gentlemen pointed out above, maybe it would be an idea TC to examine the spent casing under a magnifying glass to spot any abnormalities, expansion, cracks etc.? I seem to be eternally curious!

[timmy]

Yup and that is why you'll hear me periodically harping about wearing eye protection of some kind when shooting.

I would have lost an eye if I didn't wear glasses. In those days, I needed them. Since I've gotten old, I see better without any correction when using iron sights (rifle or handgun), so I have fixed up a pair from some old Bausch and Lomb frames I used to wear years ago and put some blank lenses in them from old ugly plastic safety glasses. I stick the Merit peep fixture on the corner of the right lens and I'm ready to go. It's not like when I was young, but it works.

By all means, use those safety glasses! XL is 100% right, and it doesn't get righter than that!

[ckkalyan]

I would have lost an eye if I didn't wear glasses. In those days, I needed them. Since I've gotten old, I see better without any correction when using iron sights (rifle or handgun)

timmy I knew this was theoretically possible, but now from your personal experience - I am eagerly looking forward to that time when my myopic eyes grow old and offer me perfect 20/20 vision!

I have observed that the power of my lenses have been dropping dramatically over the last decade.

[TwoRivers]

I would have lost an eye if I didn't wear glasses. In those days, I needed them. Since I've gotten old, I see better without any correction when using iron sights (rifle or handgun)

timmy I knew this was theoretically possible, but now from your personal experience - I am eagerly looking forward to that time when my myopic eyes grow old and offer me perfect 20/20 vision!

I have observed that the power of my lenses have been dropping dramatically over the last decade.

ckalyan: That may well happen, but you will also find that your arms have gotten shorter, and you will no longer be able to hold your reading far enough away to focus on it. But reading glasses are cheap.

[ckkalyan]

ckalyan: That may well happen, but you will also find that your arms have gotten shorter, and you will no longer be able to hold your reading far enough away to focus on it. But reading glasses are cheap.

good one TwoRivers, I like that!

Or just get LASIK and be done with it, now?