Have gone through the hunting stories on accuratereloading.com on Mehuls advise, and a large no. of them talk about a second shot or even a third and there are only a few about one shot kills.
Take care,
penpusher
Holland and Holland 30 Super Double Rifle
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Grumpy
- Old Timer
- Posts: 2653
- Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:43 am
- Location: UK
"Git as close as ye can, then git 10 yards closer!"
Yeah, that`ll be about 200 yards around here ( No, I`m not joking. )
There`s a guy not too far from here who has a new Land Rover Pick-up set-up as a mobile foxing station - covered in lamps and his rifle lies in a dedicated, fully articulated rest. He`s taken Foxes at over 800 yards - 400-600 yard shots are a weekly occurence.
Yup, amazing how often people need two or three shots to despatch an animal.............................
- Don`t think I`ll bother to say any more.
Yeah, that`ll be about 200 yards around here ( No, I`m not joking. )
There`s a guy not too far from here who has a new Land Rover Pick-up set-up as a mobile foxing station - covered in lamps and his rifle lies in a dedicated, fully articulated rest. He`s taken Foxes at over 800 yards - 400-600 yard shots are a weekly occurence.
Yup, amazing how often people need two or three shots to despatch an animal.............................
- Don`t think I`ll bother to say any more.
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penpusher
Maybe its because the large calibre high velocity rifles that they use generate so much recoil that they are not very comfortable shooting them. Another case of being over equiped? Have no experience of hunting big animals, but would not a big calibre with a heavy bullet at moderate velocity and medium recoil get the job done.Does any cartridge meeting this criteria exist out there ?Yup, amazing how often people need two or three shots to despatch an animal
Take care,
penpusher
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Vikram
- We post a lot
- Posts: 5065
- Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:14 am
- Location: Tbilisi,Georgia
Personally, I never take a shot unless I am absolutely sure that I can down the target with one shot. Expecting the bullet to finish the job without placing the requisite skill behind it is not right.JMHO.
A double rifle is any time faster than a bolt rifle.A twich of your finger is all you need.
Best- Vikram
A double rifle is any time faster than a bolt rifle.A twich of your finger is all you need.
Best- Vikram
It ain’t over ’til it’s over! "Rocky,Rocky,Rocky....."
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mehulkamdar
penpusher,
I can see why Grumpy has decided not to talk further on this issue. While things can go wrong, it is an injustice to the quarry if a hunter needs more than one shot for it. Many hunters are only recreation hunters who probably don;t put more than 30 or 40 shots through a rifle a year as preparation for a hunt. There are others who practice hard and are very careful how they do their job.
The whole thing about bigger guns killing if the shooters hits a non vital area is nonsense - unless you have artillery, it wouldn't work. I sometimes think that it is this power crazy mentality that is the cause of cruelty to animals in requiring second, third or worse fourth or more shots. A good hunter needs just one shot, no more. A second shot as insurance is fine, though it shouldn't be neccessary if you get what I mean...
Best wishes,
Mehul
I can see why Grumpy has decided not to talk further on this issue. While things can go wrong, it is an injustice to the quarry if a hunter needs more than one shot for it. Many hunters are only recreation hunters who probably don;t put more than 30 or 40 shots through a rifle a year as preparation for a hunt. There are others who practice hard and are very careful how they do their job.
The whole thing about bigger guns killing if the shooters hits a non vital area is nonsense - unless you have artillery, it wouldn't work. I sometimes think that it is this power crazy mentality that is the cause of cruelty to animals in requiring second, third or worse fourth or more shots. A good hunter needs just one shot, no more. A second shot as insurance is fine, though it shouldn't be neccessary if you get what I mean...
Best wishes,
Mehul
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eljefe
- Old Timer
- Posts: 2860
- Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:37 am
Gentlemen,
no offense meant to your collective experience or knowledge, most times , the first shot is the knock down , the animal invariably requires a second behind the ear! this is because the cartridge manufacturers tell us about the fpe , some one forgets to tell that to the animal!
Unless a 470 is used on a deer sized game-overkill??!!
RIP the one shot kill- there seems to be a new species of bulletproof animal in mutation-hence the Lott and A-square and Nyati??Our previous generations managed perfectly with their BP and cordite loads, even handcasting projectiles...but then , they didnt have britney spears crooning -'hit me baby one more time'- to them
best
Axx
no offense meant to your collective experience or knowledge, most times , the first shot is the knock down , the animal invariably requires a second behind the ear! this is because the cartridge manufacturers tell us about the fpe , some one forgets to tell that to the animal!
Unless a 470 is used on a deer sized game-overkill??!!
RIP the one shot kill- there seems to be a new species of bulletproof animal in mutation-hence the Lott and A-square and Nyati??Our previous generations managed perfectly with their BP and cordite loads, even handcasting projectiles...but then , they didnt have britney spears crooning -'hit me baby one more time'- to them
best
Axx
''It dont mean a thing, if it aint got that zing!''
"...Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away..."
"...Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away..."
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mehulkamdar
Asif,
I think the 30-30 has taken more game than all other rounds in the USA. It really is a question of getting the shot right. An animal shot in a non vital area with a 585 Nyati would not be killed any faster than with a 30-30 or smaller round... Frankly, I think my friend Johan's term "p*n*s extenders" for some of today's monster bores is very appropriate. I always laugh when I see a big bore rifle for sale with the copy "hardly used" or "less than 100 shots fired." The number is usually way below 100.
Frankly, I worry that it is not going to be too long before some idiot brews up some monster bore round and seriously injures or kills himself leading to a whole round of restrictions on guns in this country. I hope that it does not happen and my hat's off to those who shoot monster bores well. I am just not sure that some idiot or the other isn't going to get hurt. If I ever have a big bore rifle, it would be a 450-400. That is a round that I have found I can comfortably shoot and I am not ashamed to say that I don't like recoil at all. The idea of hunting to me means hitting the game hard, not myself.
Cheers,
Mehul
I think the 30-30 has taken more game than all other rounds in the USA. It really is a question of getting the shot right. An animal shot in a non vital area with a 585 Nyati would not be killed any faster than with a 30-30 or smaller round... Frankly, I think my friend Johan's term "p*n*s extenders" for some of today's monster bores is very appropriate.
I always laugh when I see a big bore rifle for sale with the copy "hardly used" or "less than 100 shots fired." The number is usually way below 100.Frankly, I worry that it is not going to be too long before some idiot brews up some monster bore round and seriously injures or kills himself leading to a whole round of restrictions on guns in this country. I hope that it does not happen and my hat's off to those who shoot monster bores well. I am just not sure that some idiot or the other isn't going to get hurt. If I ever have a big bore rifle, it would be a 450-400. That is a round that I have found I can comfortably shoot and I am not ashamed to say that I don't like recoil at all. The idea of hunting to me means hitting the game hard, not myself.
Cheers,
Mehul
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Vikram
- We post a lot
- Posts: 5065
- Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:14 am
- Location: Tbilisi,Georgia
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mehulkamdar
Vikram,
Butch Searcy and Ken Owen have started making double rifles chamberd for the 450-400 and you can buy their rifles for $ 9500 in the basic versions. These are new guns and made to order - maybe, someday, I shall buy one of them. Right now, I am not sure I would buy a new double because it would be of no use to me - I would like to have guns that I could shoot regularly and hunt with, not something that stays as a display piece...
I am looking, though, at buying a Waffenfabrik Hein custom rifle when they introduce their Mauser action next year - they are nice people and this would be the first rifle that I commission for myself. I have decided that it would be a 30-06 with a wood stock. There is much planning to be done but it is going to be some time before Hein launch their Mauser actions anyway.
Cheers,
Mehul
PS I saw that Winnie couldn't give you the address of the Enfield seller. Hopefully, it would resurface on Guntrader again. The rifle didn't sell the last time.
Butch Searcy and Ken Owen have started making double rifles chamberd for the 450-400 and you can buy their rifles for $ 9500 in the basic versions. These are new guns and made to order - maybe, someday, I shall buy one of them. Right now, I am not sure I would buy a new double because it would be of no use to me - I would like to have guns that I could shoot regularly and hunt with, not something that stays as a display piece...
I am looking, though, at buying a Waffenfabrik Hein custom rifle when they introduce their Mauser action next year - they are nice people and this would be the first rifle that I commission for myself. I have decided that it would be a 30-06 with a wood stock. There is much planning to be done but it is going to be some time before Hein launch their Mauser actions anyway.
Cheers,
Mehul
PS I saw that Winnie couldn't give you the address of the Enfield seller. Hopefully, it would resurface on Guntrader again. The rifle didn't sell the last time.
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eljefe
- Old Timer
- Posts: 2860
- Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:37 am
mehulkamdar wrote:Asif,
If I ever have a big bore rifle, it would be a 450-400. That is a round that I have found I can comfortably shoot and I am not ashamed to say that I don't like recoil at all.The idea of hunting to me means hitting the game hard, not myself.
Thanks Mehul for reinforcing the faith in the 450/400.There was a video posted about a heavy handgun (?460) being fired-I found it downright dangerous after the hysterics had passed.
totally agree with you on the hitting the game hard-having been on the receiving end many times during the unlamented testosterone days of my youth, its a relief to find a wepon like the 450/400.
You're going to be having fun designing the new 30-06...wish you many happy hours.
Best
Axx
''It dont mean a thing, if it aint got that zing!''
"...Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away..."
"...Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away..."
-
penpusher
Reading about this,I think even I will get a DG rifle.Passed on buying one twice.Just did not see the need for one.Maybe I can save enough for one now.Will be a pain finding one in a good condition and then finding the ammo for it , but would be something for me to do.Will try to find a bolt action .416 Rigby sounds nice.Anybody know of one(or anything else in this class) going cheap or deposited with a dealer or in a Thana?
Take care,
penpusher
PS-How much would an average African safari cost?Will start saving for one.Any ideas about the fee for i)Buffalo,ii)Lion,iii)Elephant (I am allowed to dream am I not?)
Take care,
penpusher
PS-How much would an average African safari cost?Will start saving for one.Any ideas about the fee for i)Buffalo,ii)Lion,iii)Elephant (I am allowed to dream am I not?)
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Vikram
- We post a lot
- Posts: 5065
- Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:14 am
- Location: Tbilisi,Georgia
penpusher wrote: .416 Rigby sounds nice.
penpusher,
.416 Rigby is a classic and there is nothing in Africa that it would not take with ease. .416 rem may offer similar performance with a shorter cartridge, but can never offer the romance of the Rigby.You can take elephants and Rhinos and with lighter loads even plains game like Kudu and Eland.The real all rounder for me.You may stumble upon one and one that is not terribly expensive.Or if you can afford a African Safari, you can easily buy a .416 Rigby made by any of the many modern rifle makers for a very small proportion of the rest of the expenses, if you are going to South Africa(Asif may chip in with more details). Or you can hire a rifle there, if I am not wrong.Also, you may consider visiting the www.accuratereloading.com, the web's best African hunting forum,and www.nitroexpress.com, re rifles there is really nothing those chaps don't know.But, keeping and shooting in India? I am frankly sceptical.
Safari shooting Elephants and Lions and Rhinos and Leopards? Not my cup.But, I agree and accept that that is necessary for effective conservation.
To sum up, a .416 Rigby bolt action is on top of my wish list,too. I would like it made by one of the gun makers of Suhl or Ferlach ( Zeigenhahn comes to my mind).
All the best with your quest
.-Vikram
It ain’t over ’til it’s over! "Rocky,Rocky,Rocky....."
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mehulkamdar
penpusher,
There are many good African Professional Hunters but the only people who regularly book Indians as far as I know are the brothers in Tanzania, Harpreet and Mohanjeet Brar www.rungwasafaris.com You could e-mail Mohanjeet at [email protected] referring my introduction if you want. They do mostly lion hunts in Tanzania.
If you are interested in Cape Buffalo or Elephant, there are South African hunters whom I could introduce you to - let me know what you are planning and I could offer some suggestions. Y0ou could chat with a few different people and then make your mind up based on your personal decision. You could also ask Nick who posts here as stripes for his recommendations. He is a highly experienced African hunter and one of the nicest people to ask for an unbiased opinion - a PM would be the best way to check.
Like Vikram, I agree with your choice of the 416 Rigby - a fantastic bolt action choice for everything you could find in Africa.
Best wishes,
Mehul
There are many good African Professional Hunters but the only people who regularly book Indians as far as I know are the brothers in Tanzania, Harpreet and Mohanjeet Brar www.rungwasafaris.com You could e-mail Mohanjeet at [email protected] referring my introduction if you want. They do mostly lion hunts in Tanzania.
If you are interested in Cape Buffalo or Elephant, there are South African hunters whom I could introduce you to - let me know what you are planning and I could offer some suggestions. Y0ou could chat with a few different people and then make your mind up based on your personal decision. You could also ask Nick who posts here as stripes for his recommendations. He is a highly experienced African hunter and one of the nicest people to ask for an unbiased opinion - a PM would be the best way to check.
Like Vikram, I agree with your choice of the 416 Rigby - a fantastic bolt action choice for everything you could find in Africa.
Best wishes,
Mehul
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mehulkamdar
Asif,
The pistol in question was a 600 Nitro Express. From what I heard at the club where the gun's owner shot and filmed it, it flew out of his hands and hit him hard in the head leaving him bleeding. The other members of the club then requested him not to shoot it there again - the possibility of the gentleman injuring himself or a bystander being very high. Even in the heavy double rifles that were made in the past, the 600 NE was an unmanageable round for most shooters. In a pistol, it must have had a horrific recoil.
Your 450-400 is a gem. Just get Mack The Knife to apply his magic on the gun and you'll be able to shoot it throughout your life and so will your children and their children throughout theirs.
When I shot Ernie Stallman's guns at last year's BGRC shoot, I felt that his 375 bolt rifles (which are less powerful than the 450-400) kicked somewhat harder. For such a powerful round, the 450-400 is remarkably pleasant to shoot. I can understand why, in these days when double rifles are becoming more and more popular and when African hunting is increasing in popularity as proper game conservation techniques contribute to a huge explosion in the numbers of animals especially in Southern Africa, there are several gunmakers scrambling to bring the 450-400 back. I would not be surprised if, in a few years' time, it becomes the most popular double rifle and single shot chambering being offered and actually used.
Cheers,
Mehul
The pistol in question was a 600 Nitro Express. From what I heard at the club where the gun's owner shot and filmed it, it flew out of his hands and hit him hard in the head leaving him bleeding. The other members of the club then requested him not to shoot it there again - the possibility of the gentleman injuring himself or a bystander being very high. Even in the heavy double rifles that were made in the past, the 600 NE was an unmanageable round for most shooters. In a pistol, it must have had a horrific recoil.
Your 450-400 is a gem. Just get Mack The Knife to apply his magic on the gun and you'll be able to shoot it throughout your life and so will your children and their children throughout theirs.
When I shot Ernie Stallman's guns at last year's BGRC shoot, I felt that his 375 bolt rifles (which are less powerful than the 450-400) kicked somewhat harder. For such a powerful round, the 450-400 is remarkably pleasant to shoot. I can understand why, in these days when double rifles are becoming more and more popular and when African hunting is increasing in popularity as proper game conservation techniques contribute to a huge explosion in the numbers of animals especially in Southern Africa, there are several gunmakers scrambling to bring the 450-400 back. I would not be surprised if, in a few years' time, it becomes the most popular double rifle and single shot chambering being offered and actually used.Cheers,
Mehul