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SIG & Caracal???

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pistolero
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SIG & Caracal???

Postby pistolero » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:02 pm

HI Guys,

Just saw this piece of news, that SIg & Caracal are L1 for 7.62x51 Battle Rifles and 5.56x45 Carbines.
Both are based on the AR Platform.

Would it not make sense to have both calibers from the same manufacturer? I think IWI is L2 in, would make sense to negotiate and setup a Manufacturing line for Galil in India, which Punj Lyod already has!

We seem to setting up manufacturing for AK 103 anyways! so we will now have 7.62x39, 7.62x51 & 5.56x45!!! Logistics people!!

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/us-made-rifle-uae-carbine-to-equip-indian-army-soldiers-1352324-2018-09-29

Thoughts


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xl_target
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Re: SIG & Caracal???

Postby xl_target » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:48 am

Interesting.
Thanks for posting this, Pistolero.
I don't know anything about the Caracal but the SIG 716 is a decent rifle.


“Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense” — Winston Churchill, Oct 29, 1941

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pistolero
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Re: SIG & Caracal???

Postby pistolero » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:53 am

I was seeing video's on the 716, seems out of the Box, the rifle had issues, which were resolved after 500 Rounds. Im assuming the Mil Spec Rifles, will not have this issue.

My point is, if a Local Manufacturing Unit has been established for Galil, why not use that? We keep pushing the make in India agenda, why not invite IWI & Punj Lyod for negotiations, and give them an opportunity to match or better the price. With local manufacturing, they can manufacture on demand. There is a 1 year deadline to deliver, Im sure the private sector can be counted on to deliver in time.

This will ensure local know how and the ability to manufacture in times of crisis, without any external interference.


Regards,
-P


"Whatever is begun in anger ends in shame."

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xl_target
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Re: SIG & Caracal???

Postby xl_target » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:26 pm

You have to be careful about which rifle you are mean when you talk about the SIG 716. There is a Gen1 which is a 15 lb rifle (with bipod and scope). There is the Gen 2 which is an 8.5 lb rifle.
The G2 has a short, stiff 16" barrel which does not change zero even when it gets warm. This is a very robust, reliable accurate rifle. This is close to the top end in AR type rifles and they cost about $3200 each. I'm sure in a large contract, the price will come down significantly. However, usually military contracts include spare parts, training for armorers, maybe some tools, maybe some ammunition, etc. which might bring the price up a little.
An interesting tidbit is that SIG has had parts made in India for a while. I'm aware of SIG pistol parts that were made in India but couldn't tell you where all their rifle parts are made.

There are a few different models offered as you can see here:
https://www.sigsauer.com/products/firearms/rifles/sig716/


“Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense” — Winston Churchill, Oct 29, 1941

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Re: SIG & Caracal???

Postby pistolero » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:04 pm

Hi XL,

I was referring to the Gen1, glad to know the Gen2, (which is actually what has been bid) is a good rifle.

Did not know that SIG made parts in India, that is good, very good. Indigenous production of small arms is a must. If SIG eventually gets the tender and uses local contract manufacturers to build the rifle, that would be great benefit for the local small arms industry.

Any feedback on the Caracal? I have not seen much or heard about it, I know these are Germans behind the gun, some ex HK as well. But thats where the info stops.

Regards,
-P


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Re: SIG & Caracal???

Postby pistolero » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:48 pm

Hi XL,

A quick question on the Recoil of the SIG 716, I see a lot of people say that the 716 kicks harder than the SCAR 17H.

Both rifles have a short stroke gas piston, so what is the real difference?

Regards,
-P


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Re: SIG & Caracal???

Postby xl_target » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:23 am

The recoil will depend on which variant is fired.

The SIG 714 is made in several variants (with corresponding barrel lengths and weights)
Close Quarter Battle, Carbine, Patrol Rifle, Precision Marksman
12.5″, 14.5", 16.0″, 20.0″
8.4 lb, 9.0 lb, 9.3 lb, 10.6 lb

Similarly there are several models of SCAR 17 made.
Without knowing which version is being ordered, it is hard to determine what the recoil will be like.

Recoil can be mitigated in many ways; Recoil pad density and thickness, bullet weight and powder charge, barrel length and rifle weight. The gas system can also be tuned to the specific load to minimize recoil.
Military rifles are usually overgassed so they function in extreme conditions.

I've shot the 16" barreled SCAR17 but not the SIG 716, so I personally couldn't make a statement of how the recoil compares between the two.
When reading reviews, keep in mind that a civilian rifle may be configured differently than a military rifle. Military rifles are usually overgassed so they function in extreme conditions. They are usually built a little heavier than a typical civilian rifle. Soldiers are not encouraged to mkae changes to the issued system like a civilian shooter would.

For example, my 9mm AR based pistol/rifle operates on the ragged edge of functionality. It is configured so the empty casing is just barely ejected and a new cartridge is loaded. My loads are tuned to the firearm. It operates flawlessly during my matches. However, the number of shots fired are relatively limited. I might not fire a full 32 round magazine, even after three strings of a stage. The gun never really gets dirty. It is cleaned (sometimes) after a match. It rides round in a padded case and sits in a safe that is in a climate controlled environment (when at home). It is religiously lubricated before each match.

A military rifle, on the other hand, is exposed to a whole different set of influences. It has to be carried in the open all day, exposed to the elements, if the soldier is lucky, he can store it in his tent overnight. It is continuously exposed to dust, dirt, heat, cold, moisture, lack of lubrication, etc.. After all that it must function, sometimes for extended periods of time, every time it is called upon.

When I'm playing a shooting game, if my gun malfunctions, I would lose the match with a chance to try again next week.
If a soldier's rifle malfunctions, he could lose his life, his comrades lives and possibly his country.

What are the differences?
The SIG 716 has a scaled up AR-15 like bolt carrier group that recoils into a conventional buffer tube.
The bolt carrier group should be lighter than the SCAR's
SIG 716 instruction manual (see page 22 for a photo of the bolt and carrier).

The SCAR
Here is a video of the SCAR's mechanism in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_skjZMzU7PI
The bolt carrier group resembles the HK G36's BCG with the recoil spring in the upper receiver.
There is no tail or buffer tube like the AR-15/AR-10 design.
I could be wrong but it looks like there is more mass reciprocating back and forth while the rifle operates (compared to the 716).


“Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense” — Winston Churchill, Oct 29, 1941

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pistolero
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Re: SIG & Caracal???

Postby pistolero » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:40 am

Thanks for the Info XL, much appreciated


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Vikram
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Re: SIG & Caracal???

Postby Vikram » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:41 am

I am not an expert but the way they have been ordering various small arms looks not very well thought out. The SIG is a brilliant rifle from all I read. Not really familiar with the Caracal at all.


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pistolero
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Re: SIG & Caracal???

Postby pistolero » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:37 pm

I dont know what is the thought:

To begin: We had a great 7.62x51 Rifle Platform, which was put aside, we Introduce 5.56x45 and Insas, then keep buying Belgian AK clones, then Multi Caliber Tender, then scrap the damn tender, then 7.62x51, then guess what we will have 7.62x39, which will be locally manufactured, and now we will buy 7.62x51 and 5.56x45 from external parties.

The process is beyond logic, only the Babu in his infinite wisdom will know, WHY and How, us mere mortals can only speculate.

SIG looks good, I agree, just give it to our soldiers ASAP, please dont let this be another fiasco. I can understand why FN does not want to bid in the tenders, KAFKA, could loose his mind.

All this Make in India, BS. If you are so serious, remove the license requirements, let small companies in! Im positive in a year, platforms will be offered by several players. But I can only dream.

All in all, if the contract actually gets awarded, I will be happy our Front Line troops, will have a good rifle. Lets just hope it does, and does not die another death.

Regards,
-P


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xl_target
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Re: SIG & Caracal???

Postby xl_target » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:37 am

Pistolero,
Here are two ex-Navy SEALS talking about the Scar17.
Interesting, to say the least.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CCp5g4Zki8


“Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense” — Winston Churchill, Oct 29, 1941


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