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I Just Purchased a Very Rare Double Rifle

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buckstix
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I Just Purchased a Very Rare Double Rifle

Postby buckstix » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:57 am

A Rare & Unusual Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Martini Style" Double Tipping Block Action by Miller & Val. Greiss

Hello All,

Although posted on other sites, this one is so very, very interesting that I decided to share my excitement about owning it with all the members of this forum. I just acquired this Most Unusual Double Rifle this past weekend at Rock Island's Auction. This is absolutely the strangest, most unique, and now my favorite, double rifle in my collection. It was made by Miller and Val. Greiss, Munchen, a well known German gun maker known for some very fine and elaborate rifles, shotguns, and pistols, of the late 1800's. I had never before seen a Martini Style action of this type, with external hammers, let-alone in a "double" Martini configuration with "double" external hammers. However, there was a similar rifle by the same maker, with the same provenance, and the same action, listed in Rock Island's Dec. 3, 2017 Premiere Auction. It sold for a considerable amount more than this one did, and although I bid on that other one, I very quickly got outbid, an dropped out of the bidding. However, last Sunday, we had a blizzard here in the Central States, and I think that cut-down on Rock Island's auction bidders. Lucky for me - because this time I was successful at about "half" the price of what the other one sold for last December.

If anyone knows the owner of that other rifle from December, please have him contact me. If anyone has ever seen a double rifle like this one, please drop me a note.

This rifle weights 8-1/4 pounds with a 13-5/8" LOP. It has a regular rear site and a tang mounted spring-up peep site. And, it also has a short raised dovetail platform that is for some type of early pre-WWI scope mounting. I'll be looking for one of those in the up-coming months.

There are no markings on this rifle except as described in the Auction listing. I've tried to shown them below.

Although the auction listed the caliber as 450 Short BPE, It has been difficult finding information about a cartridge with this name. However, after doing a chamber cast, the dimensions were very close to a cartridge that is called the "45 New South Wales." (dies from C-4 are were obtained, and 20 cartridges have been loaded) The chamber cast extended beyond the throat and it also showed that the barrel has 4-groove Henry Henry Rifling. In addition, the bores and chambers are absolutely MINT and Mirror bright. Cases for the 450 Short BPE were formed from 450-400 brass, shortened to 2.5", and opened-up to 45 caliber. The second to last picture shows the 450 Short BPE cartridge along-side a 45/70 cartridge for comparison. The 450 Short BPE case is actually much larger in diameter, and its longer than the 45/70 by about 3/8". The case capacity of the 450 Short BPE is actually 5% more than that of a 45/90 Winchester case.

Note the tiny screw tucked under the cheek-piece. (see picture 9) I removed it, and found it did nothing. It simply pluged-into a very neatly pre-drilled hole. I'm thinking this is some kind of game counter - Germans seem to like to keep track of their harvests?

The only markings: on the bottom of the right barrel are the last 4 digits of the serial number - and a number 7 on the bottom barrel rib. A "Crown V" appears on both barrels. The only place the full serial number appears is on the butt-plate.

As always, your comments are most welcome.


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And .... here is my first test target. I used 2 different aiming points. Dead center hold, and a 6 o'clock hold. That's why the 2 group locations. Although this is only the beginning of my load testing, things look very promising. I'll try some heavier bullets next time, to see if can get them to un-cross.

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Last edited by buckstix on Mon May 14, 2018 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.


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winnie_the_pooh
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Re: Just bought a Very Rare Double Rifle

Postby winnie_the_pooh » Tue May 08, 2018 3:01 pm

Very nice.Congratulations on the purchase.Thanks for sharing.I do remember reading about some one who was making new falling block doubles.


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Vikram
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Re: Just bought a Very Rare Double Rifle

Postby Vikram » Tue May 08, 2018 8:05 pm

Buckstix,

Congratulations! That is one exceedingly interesting and rare rifle. I have never seen one like this before. Thank you for the photos.

One man's snowstorm is another man's windfall! :wink:


winnie_the_pooh wrote:Very nice.Congratulations on the purchase.Thanks for sharing.I do remember reading about some one who was making new falling block doubles.



Winnie,

Bailey Bradshaw of Texas, late of Britain, builds modern Farquharson double rifles.

http://www.bradshawgunandrifle.com/Home_Page.php


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Best-
Vikram


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winnie_the_pooh
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Re: Just bought a Very Rare Double Rifle

Postby winnie_the_pooh » Sun May 13, 2018 7:57 am

Bailey Bradshaw of Texas, late of Britain, builds modern Farquharson double rifles.

Nice rifles but I still like the one Buckstix bought


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences.

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Vikram
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Re: Just bought a Very Rare Double Rifle

Postby Vikram » Sun May 13, 2018 2:40 pm

winnie_the_pooh wrote:Nice rifles but I still like the one Buckstix bought


True. I haven't seen one like Buckstix's. External hammers on a falling block double rifle.


Best-
Vikram


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sathvik
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Re: Just bought a Very Rare Double Rifle

Postby sathvik » Sun May 13, 2018 2:56 pm

Are you an Indian ?

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Vikram
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Re: Just bought a Very Rare Double Rifle

Postby Vikram » Sun May 13, 2018 3:05 pm

sathvik wrote:Are you an Indian ?

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American.


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sathvik
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Re: Just bought a Very Rare Double Rifle

Postby sathvik » Sun May 13, 2018 3:06 pm

Oh no . If he is an Indian I would have visited him just to see that double rifle.

Thanks for replying Vikram sir .

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Vikram
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Re: Just bought a Very Rare Double Rifle

Postby Vikram » Sun May 13, 2018 3:10 pm

(y) (y) Join the club.


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buckstix
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Re: Just bought a Very Rare Double Rifle

Postby buckstix » Mon May 14, 2018 5:20 am

Yes,

I'm in Wisconsin, USA.

Below is my latest shooting results. It only took about 45 rounds with testing 6 different loads to find its sweet spot. I might do a little more tweaking because the barrels are still crossing. But even so, with the way its grouping, I'm more than pleased. Groups slightly over an inch at 50 yards should result in about 4" groups at 150 yards. Its relatively flat shooting out that range. At 150 yards it still has over 800 ft/lbs of energy. That's plenty enough for anything here in Wisconsin. Also, the pressures with this load are mild. The fired cases drop easily back into the chambers. This allows for neck sizing only which will result in long case life.

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And ...... Here's an update......

I tried some Hornady 45 cal Flex-Tip bullets today. They weigh 325 grains, which is very close to the weight of one of the original bullets for the 11.6x65R. Back in the 1890's, the original bullet weighed 20.9 grams. ( = 323 grains )

And what a welcome surprise! Not only did they "un-cross" but they grouped better than any other load / bullet combination tested. Also, because these bullets have a "point" as opposed to a flat nose, these bullet have a higher ballistic coefficient. This, with the slight increase in weight, results in the ft/lbs energy increasing by about 150 ft/lbs over the entire 150 yard range.

I'm done! This will be my "best load" for this rifle from now on. It took only 92 shots to come to this final grouping.

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I just had a friend email me to say I should have quit after the first 2 shots, or at least I should have taken a picture of that first pair. They were 1/2" apart. Well, OK, I did take a picture.

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you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early

winnie_the_pooh
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Re: I Just Purchased a Very Rare Double Rifle

Postby winnie_the_pooh » Tue May 15, 2018 4:47 pm

Good shooting (y)


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences.

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Vikram
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Re: I Just Purchased a Very Rare Double Rifle

Postby Vikram » Wed May 16, 2018 3:38 pm

Very good shooting and the rifle seems to be very accurate. (y)


It ain’t over ’til it’s over! "Rocky,Rocky,Rocky....."

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mundaire
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Re: I Just Purchased a Very Rare Double Rifle

Postby mundaire » Thu May 17, 2018 12:26 pm

That's quite a find and it seems to be a fairly accurate shooter! (y) :)

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Abhijeet


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