Pistol packing kiddo

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Re: Pistol packing kiddo

Post by xl_target » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:30 pm

Peter, I applaud you on your decision to get your child familiar with firearms and firearms safety at such an early age.
My daughter fired her first gun at the age of five. Now at twentyfive, is capable of safely handling and operating almost any firearm that she might come across.
Peter,
According to me gifting a 5 year old a firearm is not a good idea at all. The Indian government has made a rule of a minimum age of 21 tears. We may agree or not agree with that rule. The age could be reduced to 18 or ybe 16 years of age, but a firearm for a 5 year old is totally not acceptable.
Also by mentioning it on an open forum may encourage others to do the same.
Are you being intentionally obtuse?
Do you really think because the rifle is intended for Peter's kid that he gets to keep it in his room and use it anytime without adult supervision?
I don't see where Peter said anything about that being the case.

In the US, it is quite common for young children to have guns bought for them when they are quite young. That doesn't mean that they are allowed to use it without adult supervision. The gun will usually reside in Daddy's safe and doesn't come out till the appropriate time.

It boggles the mind that anyone has to explain that to an adult.
Here in India (North at least) people are proud break rules and boast about it. That is also a very stupid thing to do, as per my thinking. I am sure your upbringing must have been better than mine because my ideals in life are a lot different than most of the others,
There is absolutely no need to be insulting.
You may attack the post but not the poster.
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Re: Pistol packing kiddo

Post by aadhaulya » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:41 pm

xl_target wrote:Peter, I applaud you on your decision to get your child familiar with firearms and firearms safety at such an early age.
My daughter fired her first gun at the age of five. Now at twentyfive, is capable of safely handling and operating almost any firearm that she might come across.
Peter,
According to me gifting a 5 year old a firearm is not a good idea at all. The Indian government has made a rule of a minimum age of 21 tears. We may agree or not agree with that rule. The age could be reduced to 18 or ybe 16 years of age, but a firearm for a 5 year old is totally not acceptable.
Also by mentioning it on an open forum may encourage others to do the same.
Are you being intentionally obtuse?
Do you really think because the rifle is intended for Peter's kid that he gets to keep it in his room and use it anytime without adult supervision?
I don't see where Peter said anything about that being the case.

In the US, it is quite common for young children to have guns bought for them when they are quite young. That doesn't mean that they are allowed to use it without adult supervision. The gun will usually reside in Daddy's safe and doesn't come out till the appropriate time.

It boggles the mind that anyone has to explain that to an adult.
Here in India (North at least) people are proud break rules and boast about it. That is also a very stupid thing to do, as per my thinking. I am sure your upbringing must have been better than mine because my ideals in life are a lot different than most of the others,
There is absolutely no need to be insulting.
You may attack the post but not the poster.
XL,

I respect your views on guns and other things. I have become some sort of guru in terms of gun knowledge because of you and other experts on IFG. But I really don't think that I have been (1) Obtuse (2) Insulting (3) Attacked anyone. Though there is no harm in siding with your country man (I would also do the same).

My request to you and others would be to explain the 3 points mentioned by me, and I will correct myself, that is a promise.
I am quoting my post again so that all can go through it again
aadhaulya wrote:
PeterTheFish wrote:You're welcome to your opinion. Of course it is shaped by your upbringing and culture, as is mine.
Tour observation on my upbringing.
PeterTheFish wrote:
aadhaulya wrote: Here in India (North at least) people are proud break rules and boast about it. That is also a very stupid thing to do, as per my thinking. I am sure your upbringing must have been better than mine because my ideals in life are a lot different than most of the others,
Atul
Chengy wrote:Ok I am confused here. Are we talking about a 5 year kid being allowed to own a firearm or learning to use it under supervision ??
My 15 year old daughter started driving a Tata Safari when she was 12 years old and a lot of her friends have started driving cars. I taught her driving in an open field and never on a public road even if there was no traffic because it is against the law to drive till the age of 18 years. Now after seeing her friends drive she also wants a car which I flatly refused being against the law. I will buy her one the day she is 18. That is the way I am.

I have no issues with teaching children the safe handling and using firearms under supervision but buying a gun for a 5 year old, I do not understand. But anyway there is no point of argument as you mention 'everyone to his own opinion, all I would like to say is please be very careful that I am sure you will be.

I do not know about the USA but in India a 12 year old kid (I think) can fire guns or participate in competitions, under supervision.

Atul

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Re: Pistol packing kiddo

Post by kshitij » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:46 pm

[quote="aadhaulya"]Though there is no harm in siding with your country man (I would also do the same).[/qoute]

Atul,
I believe Xl_target is Indian, even though he may not reside here :mrgreen:
Lock, Stock and Barrel.

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Re: Pistol packing kiddo

Post by aadhaulya » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:07 pm

kshitij wrote:
aadhaulya wrote:Though there is no harm in siding with your country man (I would also do the same).[/qoute]

Atul,
I believe Xl_target is Indian, even though he may not reside here :mrgreen:
Kshitij,

Sure I am well aware of that, as I read almost all his posts. Interesting stuff.

Atul

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Re: Pistol packing kiddo

Post by Hammerhead » Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:37 am

Before we sink the thread

Other than half a million safety infractions, the kid is better than the other commando.

I'm not sure where the kid belongs to but, some one needs to stop him. At least from shooting.

As far as reviews, I'm not sure what is the point ? I would have him sit in some safety class first, if im the parent !!!
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke

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Re: Pistol packing kiddo

Post by Chengy » Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:28 am

Well, I used the word 'own' in a very specific way. Being from an Army (Infantry) background ,I remember all of us kids from 5 years and up being allowed to handle firearms on the range under strict supervision of the 'Uncles' who first made us strip and assemble the weapons and clean them later on, not to mention the range safety instructions that were drilled into us that I never forgot. Clearing the gun at least three times before handing it back. And these were fully automatic weapons like the 7.62 mm SLR and 9mm pistol, not 0.22 plinkers. But I was not allowed to 'own' a gun till I turned 25 and my dad transferred his weapons to me. My son and my friends son's have been instructed in the use of firearms since about the same age but no 'owning' guns. I suppose if 'own' is used as an adjective then no issues but in the discussion if used as a 'verb' then certainly there are issues. But as per clarifications issued I guess the kid is just happy with thought the gun is his and Dad makes sure it remains that way.

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Re: Pistol packing kiddo

Post by Hammerhead » Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:17 am

I hope this settle the discussion, but whoever taught this kid this pistol grip - I lick his feet !!!
____________________________________________________________________________________


6 Time Felon Killed In Shootout By 13 Year Old During Home Invasion


1:00 PM November 17, 2015
A brave 13-year-old Ladson boy fended off two hardened felons who were attempting to break into his house by using his mother’s gun to protect himself while home alone.

Image

The boy saw the men breaking into the back of his home, “at which time he feared for his safety” and grabbed his mother’s gun, the document states. He began firing at them, and the Sheriff’s office reported that they returned fire.

In a heated shootout, he shot Brown three times, and Bennett drove him to the hospital where he later died. The gray Chevy Sonic they were driving had bullet holes in it from the boy chasing them, the affidavit states.

Where is the media coverage of this brave young man. Without the protection of his mothers gun the boy, and probably his mother when she got home, would both be dead.

Guns Reports:

Two convicted felons intent on breaking into a Ladson, South Carolina, home last week were met with surprise when they came face to face with 13-year-old armed with a gun.

According to reports from The Post and Courier, the young boy, who is not being identified, was home alone when he grew suspicious of a car that pulled up outside around 1:30 p.m. Moments later, the two suspects went to the back of the house and attempted to break in, at such time, the boy, fearing for his safety, grabbed his mother’s handgun.

As the suspects tried to make their way into the house, the boy opened fire, but the suspects reacted by returning fire before fleeing from the scene.

The boy chased the suspects out of the home and continued to fire as they fled in their vehicle. The boy, who was uninjured, then called his mother, who instructed him to call the police.

Neighbor Debbie Griffin said she called police after hearing about six shots ring out. She added that her son was outside at the time and heard more shots and witnessed the attempted burglary. He told her he saw the suspects’ car parked behind the house.

Investigators combed the area around the boy’s home and discovered a Colt .45 pistol, which was believed to belong to the suspects.

A short time later, one of the suspects, who was later identified as Lamar Anthwan Brown, 31, was dropped off outside the emergency room of a nearby hospital. Brown, who was shot three times, died at the medical facility. The second suspect, Ira Bennett, 28, later turned himself in to authorities. He was charged with first-degree burglary and possession of a weapon during the commission of a violent crime.

Image


Lamar Anthwan Brown, (L) 31, of Summerville, died at Trident Medical Center of gunshot wounds. Bennett, 28, (R) of North Charleston has been charged with first-degree burglary and possession of a weapon during the commission of a violent crime.

But apparently the two men were no strangers to crime, with both having an extensive criminal history. Brown was convicted six times on felony drug charges, in addition to unlawful carrying of a weapon, disorderly conduct and trespassing. Bennett was previously convicted of assault with intent to kill, pointing a firearm at a person and third-degree burglary, in addition to drug convictions that included possession of a controlled substance, manufacturing and distributing a controlled substance and possession of marijuana.

The boy’s mother, who is just thankful her son is safe, said she kept the gun in the home for personal protection, but she never taught her son how to use it.

“I tell my kids that if anything ever happens to call 911, but I also tell them to protect themselves if they have to,” the mother said. “I never would have dreamed that this would have been a part of our day today.”

The boy, who homeschools and is typically home with another family member during the day, did not wish to talk with reporters, but according to neighbor Debbie Griffin, who witnessed part of the attempted burglary, the boy wished the shooting never would have occurred.

Photos: Google

- See more at: http://truthuncensored.net/6-time-felon ... /#zoom-out
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke

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Re: Pistol packing kiddo

Post by main13 » Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:29 pm

PeterTheFish wrote:I think its a fair question as to why start them off with a .22 vs. maybe an air rifle to teach safety habits, so I'll talk about that for a moment.

First, before he gets the gift, my five year old has already been introduced to firearms and safety habits, through his own curiousity. It started with me sending match videos while I was out shooting to mom so he could watch, which piqued his curiousity. Now, I shoot A LOT, and that means spending time cleaning and working on guns and reloading ammo. So from time to time he will come to my work bench with his toy tools to come help daddy. At these times I treat him like an adult and explain how they work, safety rules, and of course the danger inherent in misuse. He has memorized the 4 prime safety rules, and knows how to apply them. So then it comes to an air gun / bb gun vs. a .22.

Most BB guns are multishot and somewhat inaccurate - in short they are really toys. I don't want to teach him to shoot with a toy - I think it brings the opportunity to breed bad habits, carelessness, etc...

On the flip side are air-rifles. Not only is a quality single shot air rifle going to cost as much or more than this .22, but they are also going to be 1) Quite a bit heavier (the savage rascal weighs less than 1.5 KG), 2) Impossible for a 5 year old to cock, and 3) Airguns using a spring system actually carry even more recoil than a .22. Trigger quality is also wide ranging from mediocre to good on airguns, and generally on the worse end of that range on low cost models. The savage rascal uses savage's accu-trigger which has a crisp 2.5# break out of the box (easily manageable by a 5 year old) and can be adjusted to a heavier weight if needed.

My first air-rifle at age 7 was a Beeman C1. It weighed nearly 3.5 KG and I couldn't cock it until I was 10 or 11. This meant I needed the assistance of a parent for every shot, and could only shoot prone. Both are problems for children who even at age 5 want to be doing things on their own.

So I came to the decision that it is best to start him on a rifle that is the right size and weight for him, that he can operate totally on his own. It also reduces my workload, allowing me to focus on safety and coaching.

So in short, I think its the right choice, and certainly one amply considered.
With due respect to the American way of life, gun laws & all that, here are my two cents:

In the Indian Army, we have this philosophy of "Maximum Restraint, Minimum Force". This has allowed us to counter insurgencies far more effectively than several other countries of the west.

In India the statistical chance of injury or death due to a road accident is far higher than that from a gun-related injury. In the US, these figures could well be reversed! We owe this difference to our ridiculously difficult gun laws.. :)

Lastly, In Eastern India, we have a very cute ceremony wherein a young child is left into a room full of toys resembling various objects. The ones picked or played with by the child indicate his basic tendencies, allowing his parents & teachers to better nurture his talents & overcome his shortcomings.

My outlook towards a parent's responsibility towards their child is that of creating an 'enabling environment' around him. IMHO A parent's foremost job must be to set free their children's minds, letting them seek out their calling in life. When they do that, the child takes to his areas of interest like a fish to water.
The parents' next job should be to teach him by leadership, healthy values that will allow him to overcome his challenges & evolve into a capable young man or woman useful for the society, country & mankind.
Beyond this, I see very little need for 'parenting' - you need not leave your child with much money; just give him the skills & he will be smart enuff to earn it himself! :)

Having said that, I totally appreciate that you have taught your child to shoot safety. At the same time I hope that you realize that a child's mind is a fickle, pliable substance, constantly in evolution (atleast until he goes to college, where it finally stops working once & for all!).

I feel that you may buy a gun 'on his behalf', let him be its sole user, be responsible for its safety & maintenance, shoot competitively, whatever.. yet the gun should ultimately 'belong' to you until such time he comes of age & is able to buy his own first gun (with your express permission!).

In the meantime, I would suggest you introduce the child to nature & its beauty.. Inculcate in him, a respect for all things living, a love for nature, take him camping/hiking/trekking/climbing, teach him tracking, perhaps try going vegetarian if that's palatable to you.. Teach him the significance of human values, culture, art, music, finesse of life too.. Expose him to the challenges to mankind, the contrast between self-service & social-service, the difference between a terrorist & a soldier...

Doing all this would go a long way into ensuring that (god forbid) should your son ever need to fire a round at something living, it will be a measure of last resort.
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Death cometh soon or late.
And how can man die better
Than facing fearful odds,
For the ashes of his fathers,
And the temples of his Gods.

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Re: Pistol packing kiddo

Post by chicky » Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:14 pm

:agree:


Well said, completely agree with you Main13.
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Re: Pistol packing kiddo

Post by PeterTheFish » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:39 pm

main13 wrote: With due respect to the American way of life, gun laws & all that, here are my two cents:

In India the statistical chance of injury or death due to a road accident is far higher than that from a gun-related injury. In the US, these figures could well be reversed! We owe this difference to our ridiculously difficult gun laws.. :)
The figures are not reversed in the US - the same trend is followed, even though road deaths are much lower thanks to general use of seat belts and paucity of motorcycles and larger number of firearms in circulation.

For children, (many) more deaths arise from swimming pools than firearms.

As regards children in general, you'll note that he receives this gift due to sustained interest. That interest may wane - no foul. His brother may not show a similar interest, no problem.

He is in his second season of ice hockey but didn't make it through two sessions of football practice.

That said, there is one area that he shows great interest that I don't encourage - watching TV [emoji12].

Overall I think philosophies are the same - provide at least as many opportunities as I was given as a child (but aspire to provide more), and teach that the things we want must be earned, not given.

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Re: Pistol packing kiddo

Post by xl_target » Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:40 am

In India the statistical chance of injury or death due to a road accident is far higher than that from a gun-related injury. In the US, these figures could well be reversed! We owe this difference to our ridiculously difficult gun laws.. :)
You would be totally wrong about those figures if you actually believed that.
Of course, The mainstream media, in the US and most of the rest of the world, tries to do everything to cement that incorrect impression in everyone's minds and they have succeeded, for the most part.

For example, here are the top ten causes of death in the USA.
The figures are from 2013 (from the CDC, a US Govt. entity):

Number of deaths: 2,596,993
Death rate: 821.5 deaths per 100,000 population
Life expectancy: 78.8 years
Infant Mortality rate: 5.96 deaths per 1,000 live births

Number of deaths for leading causes of death:
Heart disease: 611,105
Cancer: 584,881
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 149,205
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 130,557
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,978
Alzheimer's disease: 84,767
Diabetes: 75,578
Influenza and Pneumonia: 56,979
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 47,112
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 41,149
the above information is from here

You are more likely to die of what are generally considered old-age related ailments, an accident or if you purposely kill yourself than to get killed in some kind of gun related attack
You can go here and peruse all kinds of statistics on the mortality rate in the US.
“Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense” — Winston Churchill, Oct 29, 1941

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Re: Pistol packing kiddo

Post by TC » Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:55 pm

Hi XL,

Visited IFG after a long time and was browsing through the threads when I bumped into this topic.... seems to be a never ending one :) Agree with you, even on the death rate after all the recent attacks :)
(where are the smileys? what have guys done to the writing tools during my absence? (: )

Hammerhead has posted a very relevant news. This was all over the net a week ago.

The first pistol I shot was my maternal uncle's Luger P 08 in 9mm. I was 7 or 8. My dad was my coach and supervisor. That was the beginning.. and I am still not tired... In short, age is not really a factor. In fact, the earlier you start the better it is as far as understanding weapons is concerned.

Carry on gentlemen.
Best

TC

PS: Bring bring back the smileys.

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Re: Pistol packing kiddo

Post by main13 » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:39 pm

xl_target wrote: You would be totally wrong about those figures if you actually believed that.
Of course, The mainstream media, in the US and most of the rest of the world, tries to do everything to cement that incorrect impression in everyone's minds and they have succeeded, for the most part.
India & US have very different population sizes, hence number of deaths may give an erroneous image of reality on the ground. IMHO comparing the ratios of deaths/injuries due to guns vs total deaths/injuries for both countries would give a more accurate picture.
I'm sure this ratio would be far more favourable for India than for the US.

In India parents never think about their kid getting shot by another in schools; I doubt one can say the same about US. I don't think it is a coincidence that US employs nearly three times the number of police officers per 100,000 people as compared to India. This difference becomes even more stark considering the opinion that the US police is more efficient as compared to its Indian counterpart.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... e_officers
PeterTheFish wrote: The figures are not reversed in the US - the same trend is followed, even though road deaths are much lower thanks to general use of seat belts and paucity of motorcycles and larger number of firearms in circulation.
Fewer cars mean lesser need for fuel. Consequently we need to drop fewer bombs & make fewer enemies each year... :wink:

No offense but IMHO the American culture markets violence as valor & aggression as bravery. There is a big difference between the two which needs to be understood & incorporated by Americans for their own good!
As regards children in general, you'll note that he receives this gift due to sustained interest. That interest may wane - no foul. His brother may not show a similar interest, no problem.

He is in his second season of ice hockey but didn't make it through two sessions of football practice.

That said, there is one area that he shows great interest that I don't encourage - watching TV [emoji12].

Overall I think philosophies are the same - provide at least as many opportunities as I was given as a child (but aspire to provide more), and teach that the things we want must be earned, not given.
Pls introduce your child to the finer aspects of human life & nature for all round development of his personality. Focussing only on the dominant traits in his nature could lead to neglect of other aspects of human nature which are just as crucial.
For instance, only focussing on phys physical side would lead to a weaker development of humanitarian values & finesse; only theatre, music or science could make him physically weak & emotionally soft.
As a parent your job should be ensuring all round development! Do take him to theatre, concerts, community service, help the homeless/aged, get a dog etc. These things don't take much money, only sensitive parenting!

That said, teaching him to shoot is alright. Him cleaning, maintaining, practicing on his own is fine. Having a dedicated gun for him is also ok. Letting him 'own' the gun is not recommended, at least by my value systems! Tell him he can buy his own gun when he grows up & wins his first tournament... ;)
To every man upon this earth
Death cometh soon or late.
And how can man die better
Than facing fearful odds,
For the ashes of his fathers,
And the temples of his Gods.

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Re: Pistol packing kiddo

Post by PeterTheFish » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:22 pm

main13 wrote:
India & US have very different population sizes, hence number of deaths may give an erroneous image of reality on the ground. IMHO comparing the ratios of deaths/injuries due to guns vs total deaths/injuries for both countries would give a more accurate picture.
I'm sure this ratio would be far more favourable for India than for the US.

In India parents never think about their kid getting shot by another in schools; I doubt one can say the same about US. I don't think it is a coincidence that US employs nearly three times the number of police officers per 100,000 people as compared to India. This difference becomes even more stark considering the opinion that the US police is more efficient as compared to its Indian counterpart.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... e_officers
India has 207 deaths / 1 Lakh motor vehicles vs. 13.6 for the US, and unlike you I won't throw stones about how that makes the US superior.

India has .5 firearm deaths / 1 Lakh of population, vs. 10.5 for the US. Looks bad. Let's subtract suicide, since those folks tend to off themselves in an alternate way w/o firearms. That gets us to .34 deaths / 1 Lakh of population for India vs. 3.8 for the US.

Let's also consider that US gun ownership rate is 112 / 100 people, vs. 4 / 100 people in India. If we compared those stats on like basis as used for motor vehicles, we could see India has .000085 Deaths / Gun, vs. .000034 Deaths / Gun in the US - so despite having so many guns and our culture of "violence as valor", we still manage to hurt fewer people w/ the guns we have.
main13 wrote: No offense but IMHO the American culture markets violence as valor & aggression as bravery. There is a big difference between the two which needs to be understood & incorporated by Americans for their own good!
My mother-in-law had the same understanding of American culture when we first met. I told her that if I got my understanding of Indian culture the same way she got her understanding of American culture, I'd wonder why folks didn't spontaneously break into song and dance every 10 - 15 minutes.

What you see in TV and film isn't culture here, and gosh I have yet to see any film from India that reflects the misery of what one has to go through to pay their electric bill in a major metro circa 2006!

But no doubt as a scholar who's spent time in and studied American & Indian culture, you're well positioned to teach us about the differences between "violence as valor & aggression as bravery" which we so poorly understand.
main13 wrote: Pls introduce your child to the finer aspects of human life & nature for all round development of his personality. Focussing only on the dominant traits in his nature could lead to neglect of other aspects of human nature which are just as crucial.
For instance, only focussing on phys physical side would lead to a weaker development of humanitarian values & finesse; only theatre, music or science could make him physically weak & emotionally soft.
As a parent your job should be ensuring all round development! Do take him to theatre, concerts, community service, help the homeless/aged, get a dog etc. These things don't take much money, only sensitive parenting!

That said, teaching him to shoot is alright. Him cleaning, maintaining, practicing on his own is fine. Having a dedicated gun for him is also ok. Letting him 'own' the gun is not recommended, at least by my value systems! Tell him he can buy his own gun when he grows up & wins his first tournament... ;)
While it's unsurprising, I would be remiss to leave unobserved the number of folks here who take the opportunity to point out I must not be giving my child a well rounded up-bringing because I choose to teach him to shoot, and provide parenting advice to help fill that gap.

No doubt your child's first motorcycle or car will be or was one they buy after they win their first race? Their first phone they got or will get will be one they buy after they have earned the money for it right? While I appreciate we all have our own value systems, I was simply trying to expose a different one, not recommend they follow it.

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Re: Pistol packing kiddo

Post by Hammerhead » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:52 pm

[*] .... No offense but IMHO the American culture markets violence as valor & aggression as bravery. There is a big difference between the two which needs to be understood & incorporated by Americans for their own good!

I think we sunk the good conversation to newest low and I'm not even American !!!

I can post a video of the valour of Mumbai police officer dancing to the tone of gun shots.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke

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