Indians For Guns

Dear IFGians,
Which of the two is a better option Tokarev TT .30 Cal or Makarov .380 considering all the factors like reliability, fire power, ammo availability. Also please care to help me the ongoing prices of the two in the current market. I am from Lucknow, Uttar Pradesh.

Thanks in advance


-- Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:18 pm --

As far as I know both the bores are NPB. Am I right?

Tokarev .30 is better than Makarov, also .380 is of two types long and short, in pistols as short case but not as long case. In case of revolvers .380 is not allowed.

thebrowningeffect wrote:Which of the two is a better option Tokarev TT .30 Cal or Makarov .380

In our context, Tok TT .30 IMHO. It is more likely that you might come across a Chinese version though, it is good too. The ammo would be cheaper than the .380 acp.

Makarov pistols were chambered for both .380 ACP (9x17mm or 9mm Kurz) cartridge and the 9mm Makarov or 9x18mm. So make sure that you do not land up with one chambered for 9X18mm. It goes without saying that it is NOT a good idea substituting the ammo for the chamber it is not meant for. Oh and by the way, 9mm Makarov ammo is not available in India.

thebrowningeffect wrote:As far as I know both the bores are NPB. Am I right?

Yes.

best,
Rp.

dhananjay wrote: also .380 is of two types long and short, in pistols as short case but not as long case. In case of revolvers .380 is not allowed.

You're quite sure about all that, are you?

Please be careful of your terminology. There are three similar cartridges.
9 X17 .380 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol)
9X18 9mm Makarov
9X19 9mm Luger (aka 9mm Parabellum, etc. Generally referred to as 9mm. )

The 9X19 is a cartridge capable of generating significantly higher pressures and velocities than the other two. The 9mm Makarov performs a little better ballistically than the .380 ACP cartridge. Generally .380 is referred to as .380 ACP and not much else. 9mm Makarov is referred to as such or sometimes just as Makarov. When you say 9mm, it is assumed that you are talking about 9X19.

As far as revolvers go, Charter Arms made a "rimless revolver" in 9X19, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. The 9x19 version would also accept and fire .380 ACP

Thanks Doc

Any Idea about the prices? Please.

-- Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:37 pm --

xl_target wrote:

dhananjay wrote: also .380 is of two types long and short, in pistols as short case but not as long case. In case of revolvers .380 is not allowed.

You're quite sure about all that, are you?

Please be careful of your terminology. There are three similar cartridges.
9 X17 .380 ACP
9X18 9mm Makarov
9X19 9mm Luger (aka 9mm Parabellum, etc. Generally referred to as 9mm)

The 9X19 is a cartridge capable of generating significantly higher pressures and velocities than the other two. The 9mm Makarov performs a little better ballistically than the .380 ACP cartridge.

As far as revolver go, Charter Arms made a "rimless revolver" in 9X19, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. The 9x19 version would also accept and fire .380 ACP

Thanks xl_target for simplifying it.

Nowadays, It seems licensing Dept. in Delhi is not allowing the Tokarev TT .30 Cal pistols for new endorsements.

NM

Doc / xl_target - great insight, very well enunciated - thanks for sharing!

XL-ji hold on to your ammo-maker - I am heading right for it - to take up your invitation - very fulfilling!

I'd like to go into the Makarov issue a bit more. The .380 ACP and the 9mm (called by some 9x19, 9mm Parabellum, or even 9mm Luger) shoot what is normally considered to be the "standard" 9mm size bullet, which is 0.355 inches in diameter. That is why a revolver XL mentions that is chambered in 9mm can shoot the 380 ACP: The gun is strong enough for the more powerful round and, being a revolver, there are no feeding problems as with a semi-auto.

The 9mm Makarov was developed by the Soviet Union to replace the TT33 chambered in 7.62x25 round. Statistics show that very few battlefield casualties result from sidearms, and the idea was to have the most powerful round that can be chambered in a straight blowback action.

The Germans, during the WW2 era, had also identified this issue and had developed a "9x18mm" round, sometimes called the "9mm Ultra" and, like many German projects that were picked up after the war by the former allies, this one was picked up by the Bolshevik regime and developed into the 9mm Makarov cartridge.

One big difference between the 9mm Makarov, one one hand, and the 9mm P and 380 ACP on the other, is that the 9mm Makarov uses a bullet of 0.365 inch diameter. This means that there is NO interchangeability between it and the 9mm P or the 380 ACP.

Power-wise, the 9mm Makarov is in between the 380 ACP and the 9mm P, but it is much closer to the 380 ACP. For your comparison in the category of firepower, you can consider the 9mm Makarov to be about equal to the 380 ACP, and the TT33 in 7.62x25 would be equal to the 9mm P.

The pistol the 9mm Makarov is used in is based very closely on the Walther PP series. You can see that the Soviets did not wander too far from the original concept.

All of the Makarovs I've seen are well made and finished, and some are very very nice. They are a nice handgun.

The TT33 is much more crude. Some, like the Polish versions, are finished quite nicely. Some, like the Chinese versions, are quite rough. However, they are all strong enough and reliable enough for the cartridge.

The 7.62x25 cartridge is not only as powerful as the 9mm P round, it shoots a 7.62mm bullet very fast. Some security agencies worry about this, because the bullet can defeat the lesser types of body armor, and this is the basis of their trying to limit its availability.

I cannot comment on the availability of ammunition, however, for the purposes of self defense, the Makarov pistol is much superior to the Tokarev design. You cannot safely carry a Tokarev pistol loaded. The only way they can be safely carried is with the chamber empty. Some here in the USA, which mandates that these guns be modified to include a safety (the original design doesn't have one) feel that this means that the gun can be carried with a round in the chamber in the "cocked and locked" mode. Several have paid for this foolish assumption with their lives, by dropping the weapon. These weapons were dropped on the hammer, which caused the full cock notch to break off and discharge the weapon.

The guns modified for the USA have two types of safety modifications. One has a lever behind the trigger guard that blocks the trigger. Another is located in the M1911 position ahead of and under the hammer on the frame, and blocks the sear. Chinese models come from the factory with this second type of safety. However, when you consider that the hammer notch is what fails, you can see that blocking either the trigger or the sear will not prevent this kind of failure.

Also, you cannot carry the TT33 in "Condition 2", with the hammer down on a loaded round. (This requires that the hammer be cocked to use the weapon.) In this case, the TT33 does not have the inertia firing pin of the M1911, so when the hammer is down, the firing pin protrudes into the chamber. If a round is in the chamber, a blow to the hammer will fire the weapon.

However, the Makarov pistol is has a double action feature, so you can safely carry a round in the chamber. Read the wiki on the pistol here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makarov_pistol

I have a TT33 like Chinese Norinco that is chambered in 9mm. I like it. So I'm not against this pistol's design. I am only pointing out that it has serious drawbacks as a self defense sidearm.

You can judge this information and its suitability for your needs, and others can give a better idea of the availability of ammo and other domestic issues for you.

Thanks a lot Sir. I find your articles very detailed and informative.

thebrowningeffect wrote:Thanks a lot Sir. I find your articles very detailed and informative.

ABSOLUTELY!

Thank you, gentlemen. Our duty here at IFG is to share with each other to the best of our ability.

I've still been thinking about this post and I'd like to mention another semi automatic pistol chambered in 7.62x25mm, the Czech CZ 52. I don't know if it is available in India or not. If so, this would be a good self defense weapon -- not great, but good.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ_52

Even though it is a little bit larger than a TT-33, it is lighter. The Czechs have removed any excess metal from it and it is not very heavy for its size. It is a large handgun, however, and if your hands are small, you may have trouble with the size of the grip, mainly the length of it. It suffers from the same problem of the TT 33, in that the grip is too perpendicular to the barrel (not angled enough), so that the tendency is to shoot low.

The weapon has a lot of safety built into it -- read the wiki I've attached -- and there should be no difficulties encountered when carrying it with a round in the chamber. However, I personally don't like to carry "cocked and locked" but you can carry the CZ 52 in that mode, as well.

One weakness of the CZ 52 is it's brittle firing pin. If the weapon is dry fired very much, the pin will break. There are replacement pins available that will not break so easily.

The CZ 52 has a lot of small, intricate parts, most of which are involved in the safety mechanisms. So you would want one in good shape to begin with. I acquired mine from AIM and it was in good shape, except that the hammer pivot pin threads were stripped. I had to order a new one, and now all is fine. Another problem is that the spare magazine is bent and unusable, although it looks fine to the eye.

The gun has a parkerized finish that is non-reflective and quite durable; pretty much perfect for a working side arm.

7.62x25 ammo is readily available here. A large quantity of surplus Romanian ammo was imported some time back and I bought a tin (about 1000 rounds in 72 round boxes). Some have had problems with this ammo, but I have not.

Extraction is quite violent and for a reloader, it will fling brass from here to eternity, making a day at the range quite time consuming.

These weapons were widely available in the USA -- don't know about India, but I mention them as a good alternative. I think I paid about $115 for mine a few years back and it is probably the cheapest high powered handgun that is really useable as a self defense weapon, i.e., one that is too powerful to use a blowback action, but is still safe enough to be carried with a round in the chamber.

-- Sun May 01, 2011 14:05 --

PS as side line that is not necessarily related to the CZ 52's usefulness as a self defense weapon, the roller locking short recoil system is quite interesting and tear down for cleaning is a cinch to accomplish.

Another point to remember is that the .30 bullet travels at a high speed with the same power as a 9mm P bullet, and has a lot of penetrating power. You would need to be VERY careful discharging a gun in the 7.62x25mm round in confined circumstances, as there would be a risk of collateral damage.

timmy wrote: I don't know if it is available in India or not. If so, this would be a good self defense weapon -- not great, but good.

CZ 52 if available is rather rare in the North . TT .30 is much more commonly available.

best,
Rp.