Magazine Disconnect Safety

[farook]

Most shooters believe that a Pistol with a magazine safety disconnect has a tighter trigger as compared to a pistol with out one. Expert opinion please....

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[technical]

yes , it is a fact that mag safety guns have a heavier trigger pull.this is because, until you fully insert the magazine,the trigger has no contact with the sear.when the magazine is inserted,it pushes back a spring loaded lever that makes the trigger contact the sear. this extra spring mechanism , contributes to the heavier trigger pull.
watch this fully, he shows you how mag release safety works somewhere halfway
URL:
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edited for unacceptable subject material -- moderator

mag release safety was first implemented in the browning hi-power. this was a very useful feature in a military sidearm,because at night for field stripping,if you racked the slide and the round didn't eject, there was no worry about accidentally blowing your head off


have fun shooting,
technical.

[farook]

Good beginning technical, I see you becoming a valuable member of this forum.

[technical]

@farook, thank you

regards,
technical

edited for unacceptable subject material -- moderator

[Kittu]

Good beginning technical, I see you becoming a valuable member of this forum.

what about colt and ashani.where spring is suppresd forword by magzine whrere sear is pressed by magzine.i.e when mag is insurted spring of mag locck is supressed by magzine itself.in browning its little spring which goes of shot when magzine is out but when mhen magzine is insuterd magzine takes all pressore of so calledd spring that lets go off sear in browning high power not trigger.i have not seen your utube videos thanks

[timmy]

yes , it is a fact that mag safety guns have a heavier trigger pull.this is because, until you fully insert the magazine,the trigger has no contact with the sear.when the magazine is inserted,it pushes back a spring loaded lever that makes the trigger contact the sear. this extra spring mechanism , contributes to the heavier trigger pull.

Actually, this is not the way the magazine safety works in a Browning/FN HiPower, nor is the statement true in every case of pistol.

In a Browning/FN HiPower, the trigger does not contact the sear at anytime. There is a sear located under the hammer, similar to the way a 1911 works. Resting on top of the sear is a sear connecting lever, which bridges the distance from above the trigger to over the top of the sear, with a pivot in the middle. The sear connecting lever thus is like a teeter-totter.

The trigger has a tripping lever, which is a strut that rises from a pivot in the back of the trigger. The tripping lever rises straight up and contacts the far end of the sear connecting lever. Thus, when the trigger is pulled, the tripping lever pushes up on the front end of the sear connecting lever, which pushes the rear of the sear connecting lever down. When the sear connecting lever's back end pushes down, it tips the sear from the full cock notch in the hammer, releasing it and firing the weapon.

The magazine safety in the HiPower is a rod shape with a flat head on the end, that sticks out from the back of the trigger. It is spring loaded to extend out of the back of the trigger. When the magazine is in the frame, this plunger is pushed into the trigger. When the magazine is removed, the plunger is pushed backwards out of the trigger by a spring.

The plunger has a recess machined into the top of it so that when it is pushed into the back of the trigger (when the magazine is in place), the recess machined into the top of the plunger allows the tripping lever to stick straight up and contact the front end of the sear connecting lever. In this state, the lock mechanism is functional.

When the magazine is removed, the slot in the plunger moves back, and the end of the slot hits the bottom part of the tripping lever, causing the tripping lever to pivot forward. In this position, the tripping lever cannot push against the sear connecting lever and the lock mechanism is not functional.

The problem related to the trigger in this design is that the head of the plunger, which rests against the front wall of the magazine, creates friction when the trigger is pulled, because the head of the plunger drags across the front surface of the magazine as the trigger is pulled. This factor makes the trigger of the HiPower stiffer than, say, a 1911.

The Colt "Pocket Pistol" of 1903 (32 ACP) and 1908 (380 ACP) introduced a magazine safety in 1926. In this design, a hoop-shaped "depressor" surrounded the magazine and when a magazine was in place in the weapon, the depressor moved forward and allowed the disconnector to work normally. When the magazine was removed, the depressor moved rearward slightly, it engaged a ramp on the disconnector, forcing it down. Since the disconnector (when in normal, firing position) permits the trigger to press against the bottom of the sear, the depressor pushing the disconnector downward causes the pistol to be unable to be fired.

This sort of magazine safety should not affect the trigger pull, since the lockwork operates normally when a magazine is in place, i.e., it is as if the magazine safety was not present.

The Ashani may or may not have a similar mechanism as the 1903 Pocket Pistol magazine safety -- I don't know. But my point is that there are many kinds of magazine safeties used in pistols, and whether one design affects the trigger pull or not would need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis for each design.

[farook]

Good info there Timmy but I must admit I could not follow all the way. I tried to figure things out with these animations. The components are colored so that we can explain things better..

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[TC]

mag release safety was first implemented in the browning hi-power. this was a very useful feature in a military sidearm,because at night for field stripping,if you racked the slide and the round didn't eject, there was no worry about accidentally blowing your head off


have fun shooting,
technical.

Technical who told you that ? Do you or did you ever personally field strip handguns at night ( I guess you mean complete or partial darkness or while going to bed, its not very clear in your statement) with a round in chamber ? I guess not. For, you might not have lived to tell the story.

First, let me give you one piece of advice. Please do not write things unless you have practical knowledge or unless it is an established fact. You always run the risk of misleading other members.
No police or military force in the world asks or teaches its cadets/soldiers to field strip weapons in darkness (if that is what you mean) unless it is part of a training or familiarization programme OR it is being done in an emergency situation. Whenever a gun is field stripped the user has to first ascertain that the chamber is empty. if you ever try to strip any weapon with a live round in the chamber you may blow off not just your face but even pose danger to bystanders.

For field stripping, the cardinal rule for all auto/semi auto/ repeaters is :
1) Remove the magazine first
2) Cycle the bolt/ slide/ cocking lever to empty the chamber. For safety's sake cycle it twice or thrice but do not squeeze the trigger in between or after
3) Visually inspect the chamber and ensure that it is empty
4) If there is still a round in the chamber remove it following recommended safety measures
And then go ahead and strip the weapon. There are no ifs and buts about these.
The magazine disconnect safety is just one of the safety features designed for firearms. It is not error-proof or flawless just like any other safety feature, and especially in case of firearms that go through a lot of wear and tear. No weapon can be considered safe as long as there is a round in the chamber,irrespective of the fact that it is not SUPPOSED to fire without the magazine fully inserted. Please remember this.

Also, the FN Browning was not the first pistol to use the magazine disconnect safety. There were quite a few pistols designed before it was born that had the feature.

Farook, Timmy has explained in detail the features of the magazine disconnect safety. All I want to add it that this has little to do with softer or lighter trigger.
For example, my WWII era striker-fired Bernardelli pistol with mag disconnect as well as trigger lock safety had a crispier trigger than my Beretta Model 70 with just the external hammer safety.
Triggers can my mushy, have less or more over travel, false play etc. These are pros and cons of a particular design or production process and have little to do with safety features.

TC

[technical]

i am sorry the sear was not what i meant, used a wrong word. yes the trigger is connected to a sear connecting lever,i just wrongly used the term sear to refer to that (sorry) . i do know perfectly well how a mag safety works , though i admit i will use the correct terms next time . @farook ,@timmy @tc sorry gentlemen .
but what timmy said was exactly what i meant. about the magazine safety, people (mostly people wanting a "lighter trigger pull") have removed the mag safety by sinply removing the spring and making the "block" contact the trigger and the sear connecting lever all the time. in a high power if you dont have a round in the chamber, and have the mag removed you can release the hammer by putting your finger in and pressing down on the block, and the pull the trigger.
@TC no, i do not go anywhere near our guns when i'm in any kind of a drowsy state. when i said field strip in the dark, i meant in a war, when there is no light, you're somewhere in a muddy/dusty place and you don't know whether the catridge is out or not.i do know all the safety precautions for handling a firearm, almost second nature now(drilled in from childhood).
as to the actual reason for the mag safety, nobody knows i guess. what i specified was one of the most popular reasons given.

on 7th april(exams get over), i will upload a video , fully stripping and showing you how a hi-power works and even a beretta 92 .
@TC i always even check for squib rounds

safe shooting gentlemen.
sorry again,
technical

[farook]

Cool down TC, technical is just trying to make a point here, Accidental Discharge can be avoided if a gun has a magazine safety disconnect. He is new to this forum we need to appreciate his enthusiasm. We write something wrong get corrected by senior members that's how we learn.

As for malfunctions well yes if a gun is subjected to excessive wear and tear or left unattended over a long period of time, parts can get corroded. This has happened to a few rifles from a very reputed company where a member of the house was killed when the owner was cleaning his rifle which by the way was left out for a couple of years. For anyone who has multiply guns, cleaning them all may be a time consuming issue. No such luxury in India.

I would like to reiterate that a few guns like the P 35 have a mag safety disconnect. In certain countries and parts of a certain country where its legal the mag disconnect safety has been removed making the trigger relevantly lighter and giving it a shorter reset.

Any sport shooter would tell you that what hits or misses the target is primarily the trigger control. When a sport shooter takes his stand he takes three deep breaths, picks his pistol takes anther two deep breaths with the third inhalation raises the pistol and aims. So far most of us get it right. The second major factory is called the Movement of Arc, the tremble in our hands because of the wt. of the pistol. This can be controlled with physical and breathing exercises under supervision of a sport therapist. There after its all about trigger control. Attached is a chart of what a bad trigger can do

[TC]

Technical,
I could not make out most of what you were trying to say about stripping a pistol in a dirty, dusty place in the middle of war. But please don't take the trouble of explaining again. I am sure you know what you were trying to say. Just keep in mind the safety factors that you know so well.

TC

Farook,
I am always cool and encouraging Whatever I said was to explain that magazine disconnect safety does not, I repeat, DOES NOT, give you any extra peace of mind just because the gun won't fire even if there is a live round in the chamber and the magazine is out. You HAVE TO empty the chamber before putting away the weapon. And, while carrying the weapon the magazine disconnect safety is of no use because the magazine has to be in place all the time. In fact, while in a firefight you stand to lose if you misplace your magazine and don't have a spare mag. Then, it becomes absolutely impossible to use the pistol by manually chambering one round at a time. This is precisely the reason why many armies and police forces and especially the FBI either avoided or stopped using pistols with magazine disconnect safety.
Second, the heavier trigger you keep talking about, is just a notion based on some models. Please read my post again.
I am quite aware of the different stages of trigger movement but still don't find any relevance.

If you ask for my opinion then all I can say is that I find the magazine disconnect safety quite useless and dated.

TC

[farook]

TC I seriously believe you have not been keeping well ever since you surrendered your weapon at the police station...

[technical]

@TC , you surrendered your guns ?? elections???
well it does not matter to us whether there is a magazine safety or not, because well we're civvies and not going to waR .
you really cannot compare the trigger pulls of different pistols . because they're designed differntly and have different springs and such. what i was trying to say was that the trigger pull seemed to be lighter after removing the mag disconnect feature .

safe shooting, hope you get your weapons back.
regards,
technical

[timmy]

i am sorry the sear was not what i meant, used a wrong word. yes the trigger is connected to a sear connecting lever

No, you are wrong again. The trigger is connected to the tipping lever. Go back and read my post one more time.

i just wrongly used the term sear to refer to that (sorry)

Please remember, we are not mind readers. If you set yourself up as an expert to explain how something works, ought we not to assume you know what you are talking about and how to explain it?

i do know perfectly well how a mag safety works , though i admit i will use the correct terms next time . @farook ,@timmy @tc sorry gentlemen .
but what timmy said was exactly what i meant.

As I said, you still have not "got it." This is not a school where you are being tested on how much you know. We assume you know what you are talking about when you post, unless you prove otherwise.

TC is quite correct to remind you that a post is not meant to be a display of knowledge. The purpose is to help others, and your postings on this regard have not been helpful and have possibly been misleading. Take a clue from TC's advice: leave your typing fingers in neutral until you have both understood the subject, and then figured out how to explain it.

Contrary to your latest post, you can compare the triggers of various weapons -- it is done all the time. This can be done subjectively or objectively with instruments of measurement.

Your continued posts on this subject are only "digging you in deeper." Take a deep breath, realize where you got off track, and don't do it the next time

[technical]

@ timmy , thank you for pointing out how to post properly on this forum . being young i am a bit of an over enthusiast (Sorry) and i posted without thinking how to explain it properly. i assure you my next posts will be of better quality, and better thought out .
i know trigger pulls can be compared , i was merely saying that a mag safety may not be the only reason for a heavier trigger pull( though my choice of words were questionable)
sorry if i misled anyone.
also i am not an expert on any account . just an amateur enthusiast who has had good opportunities to know the mechanics of a few PB guns .
i do not know most of the terms because, my knowledge about the high power comes from personally stripping my uncles pistol.(i couldn't put it back together the first time )

to the IFG family sorry ,
and thank you for putting me on track)

regards,
technical