.30 caliber pistol vs 9mm. Which one is more powerful?

[thebrowningeffect]

Dear IFGians,
Which is more powerful ? .30 caliber (7.62x25)or 9mm Parabellum? Please shed some light on this?

Thanks in advance

[coltpython]

.30 caliber is more powerful interms of stopping power, 9mm has a greater muzzle velocity(2100fps).

[target shooter]

Dear IFGians,
Which is more powerful ? .30 caliber or 9mm? Please shed some light on this?

Thanks in advance

Hi Browning,
That damn bottle neck .30 cartg is a ripoff, I've not fired a 9mm(p) on a brick. But i don't think 9mm p will crack and pass through a normal brick. but Tula is a Tula. Too bad I don't own one or any other ... CZ that can digest this round.

Regards,

-- Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:43 pm --

.30 caliber is more powerful interms of stopping power, 9mm has a greater muzzle velocity(2100fps).

I think it may be the other way round. May be I'm wrong.

Reg.
TS

[timmy]

The caliber itself will not give you an adequate means of comparison.

By 9mm, I assume you are referring to 9mm Parabellum/Luger, and not one of the many other rounds that shoots 9mm projectiles.

But by saying .30, you may be referring to .32 ACP or 7.62x25 Tokarev, or another cartridge. From the sound of your post, you seem to be talking about the 7.62x25 Tokarev.

If this is the case, you may wish to consult the wiki articles on each:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62×25mm_Tokarev
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9×19mm_Parabellum

The bottom line is, they are very comparable in terms of power. 7.62x25 bullets, being lighter, have a higher velocity and flatter trajectory. 9mm is a smaller (physically) round, which allows advantages when designing the gun it's used in.

Having shot and having both rounds (9mm in a Norinco 213 and 7.62x25 in a CZ52), I can assure you that the 7.62x25 is no joke at all -- it is quite effective. Other than a substantial muzzle blast, it is fun to shoot, as well.

The velocity figures quoted in this thread are too high; consult the wiki articles for this information.

But the bottom line would be that the 2 cartridges are in the same power class, and the trade-offs you are looking at concern a lighter bullet moving faster or a heavier bullet moving slower.

[Baljit]

.30 caliber is more powerful interms of stopping power, 9mm has a greater muzzle velocity(2100fps).

HI, coltpython, i like to know what make you think 9mm have a 2100 fps ? i have a 9MM it give me not more then 1350 fps. with my own reload ammo. can you explane this?

Baljit

[xl_target]

One should be more precise when asking for information on cartridges. I am assuming that you are talking about handgun cartridges because this is in the handgun section.

Possible cartridges that you might be referring to are:
7.62x25mm Tokarev, also known as 7.62 mm TT
7.63x25mm Mauser, which was the basis for, and has nearly identical dimensions to the Tokarev, but has different loading specifications
( see HERE)

when you say 9mm, are you talking about:
9 x 17 (.380 ACP)
9 X 18 (Makarov)
or 9 X 19 (9mm Parabellum/Luger)
There are many more incarnations of the 9mm. (see HERE)

I am assuming that in this case you are talking about the Tokarev Round and 9mm Luger.
Here are their vital statistics:
9mm Luger: 115 grain FMJ* bullet, 4" barrel, 1155 fps MV, 341 foot-lbs ME
.30 Tokarev: 93grain FMJ* bullet, 4.5" barrel, 1220 fps MV, 305 foot-lbs ME

MV=muzzle velocity, ME=Muzzle Energy,*FMJ=Full Metal Jacket

Keep in mind that the 9mm Luger is available in a number of different loadings, a very wide variety, in fact. This includes FMJ, JHP, shotshells, etc
The most common bullet weights are 115 grain, 124 grain and 147 grain. Heavier bullets generally mean more Muzzle Energy.

While the Tokarev round is no slouch, the availability of heavier bullets in 9mm Luger allow for more muzzle energy to be delivered to the target.

[TwoRivers]

"Heavier bullets generally means more Muzzle Energy." Not quite. Heavier bullets in general mean that there is less powder space available in a pistol cartridge, given an established and limited overall cartridge length, and the muzzle energy obtained will be slightly less. Also, any cartridge when loaded to the same pressure, provided powders of suitable burn rate for the bullet weight used are available, maintaining the same powder space/bullet seating depth, will give similar muzzle energies for all different bullet weights. Simple physics.
However, heavier bullets retain velocity better than lighter bullets, hence will deliver more energy at longer range.

[Vikram]

You gents may like to check this little experiment.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm


Best-
Vikram

[thebrowningeffect]

Dear Vikram
Thanks for the link. It (7.62x25) surely has some great power.

Cheers

regards

[Vikram]

It has its applications. Apart from muzzle energy alone, if you are looking for a self-defence round, you may like to do a bit more research on stopping power.


Best-
Vikram

[xl_target]

"Heavier bullets generally means more Muzzle Energy." Not quite. Heavier bullets in general mean that there is less powder space available in a pistol cartridge, given an established and limited overall cartridge length, and the muzzle energy obtained will be slightly less. Also, any cartridge when loaded to the same pressure, provided powders of suitable burn rate for the bullet weight used are available, maintaining the same powder space/bullet seating depth, will give similar muzzle energies for all different bullet weights. Simple physics.
However, heavier bullets retain velocity better than lighter bullets, hence will deliver more energy at longer range.

You're perfectly correct.

It comes from me trying to do too many things at one time.

Two statements that I made were factually incorrect.
"Heavier bullets generally means more muzzle energy" should have said "more retained energy".
"..the availabliity of heavier bullets ... allow more muzzle energy to be delivered to the target" should have also said "more retained energy"

Don't ask me why I have "muzzle energy" on the brain today.




Vikram,
Excellent link. Very illuminating!

We also have to keep in mind that typical surplus Russian ammo is steel-cored whereas most pistol ammo in the US is lead. To dump all its energy into a target, ideally the round must stay in the target and not pass through. Lead works better for that than steel. I'm not saying that one cartridge is better than the other but for self defense purposes, you want good penetration and you want all the energy of the bullet to be dumped into the target. It would be preferable if the bullet would not exit the target. If it does exit, an innocent bystander could be hurt.

[timmy]

Browning:

That link that Vikram provided gives a very graphic demonstration of what I meant when I said that the 7.62 x 25 was no joke. I shoot this round out of the same kind of pistol -- the CZ52 -- as is shown in the article. Just as the article notes, the fast moving bullet is able to do some pretty amazing things, and the ability of the round to penetrate "soft" body armor is well known to most law enforcement and intelligence communities around the world for just this very reason.

One thing about 7.62 x 25 ammunition to take into consideration is that there is no real "factory load" for it, as such. Commercial ammunition is generally loaded to SAAMI specs and its performance is documented by manufacturers' specifications. However, the military ammunition can be somewhat of a "grab bag." I shoot surplus Romanian ammo out of mine, but some loads meant for submachine guns are quite "hot." There was a batch of such Czech ammo available recently that was reputed to be dangerous in handguns.

I was very interested in this round for two reasons: First, because on long drives in deserted places, as I sometimes make, I wanted a handgun that could give some expectation of punching through car doors and windows. Some round nose bullets, such as those for .38 Special and .45 ACP, have been known to bounce off of a slanted windshield, rather than penetrate it.

(If you think the laminated glass used for windshields isn't tough, take a hammer to it sometime and see how you manage!)

Secondly, there are plastic sabots available to reloaders that are used to shoot .224" bullets (such as those used in the 5.56mm US military M16 round) out of .30 caliber rifle cases, such as .30 - '06 and .308. Some folks have tried shooting these sabots with 55 gr .224" bullets out of 7.62 x 25 cases, achieving velocities of over 1700 fps. Needless to say, what a relatively bulky .30 pistol bullet will do at ~ 1400 fps, a .22 caliber FMJ spitzer at 1700 fps could be expected do better. Although the 55 gr spitzer is lighter, its sectional density and ballistic coefficient are much better than the pistol bullet, so it will perform better at longer ranges, as well.

However, I haven't gotten around to messing with the sabots yet.

I will say that, at the range, touching off a 7.62 x 25 pistol will certainly get the attention of other shooters quite quickly!!

If you are thinking about these two rounds from a personal, rather than academic perspective, I'd say that the 9mm P is quite capable for most defense needs, and it is widely available. The 7.62 x 25 may not be so available in India, but it may not suffer from the PB/NPB issue like 9mm P does.

One more point: the great penetration of 7.62 x 25 comes at a price in urban areas. It will penetrate a lot of things that you may not want to penetrate, such as walls and room partitions. This may be not be convenient. In that sense, it may be a better submachine gun round than a pistol round.

I also think that the 7.62 x 25 would be a fun little thing to have in a miniature bolt action rifle, like a Brno or Kimber.

-- Fri Jun 24, 2011 14:41 --

PS: great link, Vikram! Most interesting!

[ankit.arora]

30. pistol is more power ful than 9mm pistol

[dr.jayakumar]

so the final discussion ends....30 (.32acp)has more penetrating power than a 9mm?good or bad?

[target shooter]

so the final discussion ends.... 30 (.32acp) has more penetrating power than a 9mm?good or bad?

pl don't close the debate