defensive loads for shotguns

[eljefe]

That graph was probably what was buzzing around in my ether soaked brain Mark,
Ok, !0% it is
Best
Axx

[Vikram]

so the load/pressure graph is more of a horizontal line then climbing up X axis at the end instead of being similar to black powder where there is more of a linear relationship.

You completely lost me here,Sir. Couldn't understand a thing. None of your fault.My dense mind.

Best-
Vikram

[Grumpy]

Mark`s right - remove half the powder and you`ld produce a damp squib effect. The question still remains though Asif - WHY ? Can`t be to do with recoil as that`s irrelevent. The only thing that I can think of is that you are trying to produce a non-lethal round in which case you are going about things the wrong way - even a reduced charge, reduced weight of shot cartridge will still be lethal. For that you need to be looking at rubber bullets - which, thinking about it, would still be lethal at inside the home type ranges - or ballistic putty. In France you can buy self defence weapons which are not regarded as firearms and which shoot a large diameter ball of `putty`. Non-lethal but really smarts ! Of course the old way of producing non-lethal rounds was to remove the shot and replace it with coarse salt. Definitely non-lethal ( except at very short range when even the wad could kill ) but would hurt like heck !

[Grumpy]

Vikram, it`s to do with the rate of burn of powders: It`s easy to think of the powder exploding when igniting - which it doesn`t. An explosive detonation would blow up the gun ! Black powder burns at a more or less constant rate and the pressure produced rises linearly up to a maximum. For this reason very long barrels are of much more benefit when using black powder. `Smokeless` or `nitro` type powders burn much more rapidly and the maximum pressure is achieved much more quickly. There are dozens of different smokeless powders available worldwide, each with different characteristics and each with specific applications.
Reducing the powder charge can alter the burn characteristics of a powder and it is never a good idea to have air-space around the powder anyway as there is always the possibility of explosive detonation.....with the results as indicated above. Whilst reduced charge `explosive detonation` has never been proved there have been dozens of examples over the years of guns being severely damaged - not to say wrecked ! - when the only apparent explanation is a reduced charge cartridge. Certainly leaving air space around the powder can produce very peculiar variations of burn with unpredictable pressure variations.

[Mark]

Vikram,

Grumpy is correct, the real reason I'm posting this is to see if my signature works! Image is too large kb-wise to use as an avatar.

Anyway, this is not 100% accurate but hopefully will give you an idea of the concept-

Black powder is classified as an explosive.If you take a pile of BP and light it it goes off with a poof! If you load it in a gun it will still take that same amount of time to go "poof".

Smokeless powder is classified as a flammable, if you pour a pile of it on the ground and light it it will burn with a big flame and take a noticeable time to completely burn. If you were to increase the pressure it is under while it is burning, it will burn a bit faster. So you get this cart-and-horse routine where in a confined space like a cartridge the powder burns, generates gas which builds up pressure which makes it burn faster which generates more pressure which makes it burn faster yet.... You get the idea. This is why a particular cartridge when you load it with 20 grains of powder may not get teh bullet out of the end of the barrel, and at 25 grains you are showing pressure signs of an overload.

[eljefe]

Thanks Grumpy & Mark
WHY? because I thought I could play around a bit, see what I can generate and post-Definitely not pics of my mangled hand.Thanks for the ballistics of the sane advice folks.
Yes, i've tried rock salt, fun.
Basically , looking for a 'soft load', which the memsab will not be hacked off with.Want her to be comfortable mentally and physically.
OK, I'll give my self 10 years before I start any experimentation.been in deep thought-kind of oxymoron for me -asif in deep thought, searched around, pulled out the sad remnants of a couple of reloading books and AGREE.
Have never been a shotgunner-thought I should make some soft loads for home defense, seeing that the shotty is primarily intended for the same.
Now, I'll go for standard load/reduced shot, with 6 or 1 or something and play around.
Am not going to try and convert good old shotgun powder into Astrolite G and achieve nirvana.
The 2" shells were my fav , used them a lot in s.africa in a shopkeeper special type of pump shorty 12, which fed from a magazine in the pistol grip.Awesome results.Cant for the life of me remember the name or find a pic.
Best
Axx

[eljefe]

ps: Mark, Great signature.Cant for the life of me see the belt feed modification
keep on doin it!
Axx

[Grumpy]

Nice explanation Mark and a superb `signature` - I`m so jealous ! Goodness knows how you got it to load......and don`t try explaining because my brain will instantly shut down !
Asif, you`re not referring to that SA `shorty` with the big rotary magazine are you ?

[Mark]

I'm just sorry I could only find the pic with a crappy gun like a Glock!

[Grumpy]

You know, years ago when the Glock was announced I decided that it was a load of crap.....and then I tried one. Had to change my mind because `crappy` it definitely wasn`t ! Used a .45 and a 10mm in Standard Class PP and never had a problem with either. They were reliable, accurate and comfortable to shoot - and recoil was definitely `soft` compared to a 1911A1. Since then a whole bunch of clones have been spawned ...... and some of those definitely are crappy !

[Mark]

Poor choice of words on my part I suppose. Rather than "crappy" I should say "not user friendly from a safety point of view".

Before the Glock craze with our police forces, AD's were mostly unheard of. Now they are somewhat common unfortunately. Most of them occur with Glocks, not having an exposed hammer nor external safety except for the tab on the trigger is not the best approach IMHO. A lot is to be said for having an external hammer with a half cock position. I don't like carrying 1911's with a round in the pipe and hammer at full cock either.

Regarding ergonomics they are quite a bit fatter which makes them more inconvenient to carry around IMHO. I do agree that on the range they shoot nice but that is only a piece of the entire pie.

[eljefe]

John,
No, it wasnt the rotary mag 12-I think that was the striker or something-seen and handled it, but didnt fire.That handled full size loads
This one was a shorty 12, mag fed, handled only 2" and feed was from pistol grip. Very convenient carry gun.
Axx

[pwm]

"I think that would be removing a bit too much powder,I think 10% would be a bit closer.

Smokeless is a bit different than black powder in that the burning rate is a function of the pressure, so the load/pressure graph is more of a horizontal line then climbing up X axis at the end instead of being similar to black powder where there is more of a linear relationship."

thats more than rigth, you can make any kind of shotgun load with blackpowder and it works safely

I know you are not very happy with 32 auto pistols because you like bigger is better

I have shot different pistol caliber, 45 colt, 45ACP, 44 mag, 357 mag, 38 special, 9 para, 9 Steyr, 9 kurz, 32 ACP, 32 S&W, 320 short CF, 7,63 mauser, 25 ACP maybe some more, what ever I can get in my hands with a box of ammo, biggest was a 308 Win single shot pistol - no fun!
dont wont a shotgun for home defense, give me such 32 auto pistol with full metall jacket and I am not afraid to take a 25 auto.
such a handy gun, ligth to carry it all the day and small to fit any pocket

of course a Walter PPK will be fine but if not possibe I think any small pistol is allways better than a long gun

[mehulkamdar]

PWM

I have never been able to get myself to like the Walther PP and PPK guns. In my personal experience, every one that I have seen and shot has had a tendency to jam. I prefer the Mauser HSc to them, and, if asked about the best semi auto blowback pistol from that era, would rank the Ortgies above even the Mauser. It is a pity in my opinion that the Ortgies is no longer made.

These days, of course, there is a tendency for more powerful miniature pistols like the Rohrbaugh and Kel Tecs in the US, but the small blowbacks like the L W Seecamp etc are also nice. Unfortunately, for our friends in India, these are banned and cannot be bought by anyone living there.

OT but I know of a beautiful pre war Ortgies pistol in it's original box with extensive factory engraving that is owned by a lady member of the Tamilnadu State Assembly who is a neighbour and good friend of my parents. A single lady in her 50s, she takes incredibly good care of the little pistol and carries it around with her whenever she travels. I have never been able to find out where she bought it from.

Cheers,

Mehul

[pwm]

IIRC the Ortgies pistol was one of the best polish handguns ever made.
No doubt, made with an input you will only find with custom made guns today.
But the advantage and the revolution with the walter PP was the single action / double action look realize first time with this pistol.
The Mauser HSc and the lesser known Sauer&Sohn Mod 38 have it also but this firms dont make a smaller counterpart like the walter PPK.
This must allways be bad one's with unknow problems how have failed, the Walter PP is the most copied pistol in gun history.
Yep, my vote is for the small pistol and when have the chance to crap one from all I take the extra small PPK version in 25 ACP/ 6,35 Browning with FMJ bullets.
I dont realy believe in such hollow points, no bad hit with 500 S&W mag with hollow points can do what a good hit in vital organs with the little 25 FMJ will do any time: stop the agressor.