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Visit to Khairudin Gun factory-Gun Pics uploaded

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sa_ali
Posts: 911
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:50 pm

Visit to Khairudin Gun factory-Gun Pics uploaded

Postby sa_ali » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:51 pm

Visit to Khair-ud-din Sons and Co
It has being a long lasting quest for the locally made O/U. Just like me, there are other shooters, who constrained by budget, have being always on a lookout for decent budget O/U. We have had several threads on the forum where we have debated, spoken, researched on locally made O/U. We all know that there is a need to fill the vacuum of affordable O/U, which can be used not only in general shooting but also can be used in the professional Trap and Skeet events
The same quest for the O/U was sparked further after the pic posted by another member Amjad, of O/U made by Khair-ud-din Sons & Co. In the same thread we had asked for more details and we all were hungry for detailed and in depth review of the guns available.
The same need and hunt for decent O/U, made me undertake a journey to Jammu, to visit the Khair-ud-din factory and see for myself the gun, as this gun is not available at any gun seller in Delhi or Meerut.
The whole idea, got initiated with Amjad bhai posting pics of the gun, then I spoke to Afzal uncle (owner of the Khair-ud-din), to get more details of the gun and material used and also see if there is any scope of customization. At that moment, Afzal uncle extended me the offer to visit the factory and evaluate the gun myself.
After few back forth communication for the common availability of all 3 people, Amjad Bhai, Afzal Uncle and myself, last week 17th June was fixed as the date to meet in Jammu. I was able to book my railway ticket, got my cousin to tag along with for the journey.
We departed from Delhi on the 16th night, reached Jammu 17th morning, the weather was totally contrast of our expectation, it was damn humid and hot , Checked in Mc Dollar Hotel
At 10 AM, we rendezvoused with Amjad Bhai, we drove through the town to Khair-ud-din factory.
http://picasaweb.google.co.in/syedakbar.ali/JammuVisit#5498998890337563218
We sat down, started having conversation with Afzal uncle. We spoke about wide array of topics, then finally started about guns.:) we first saw the Laurona and Sarasquetas. They are lovely guns, they were imported by them to use them to develop their own O/U. They are also available for sale. I didn’t pay much attention to them as I knew they are beyond my range and I didn’t want to deviate myself from evaluating the locally made O/U. But yea if you have the money, go down and buy those lovely gun, they are value for money too, considering the fact that u literally get mint condition Import guns, they are very well balanced, light weight.
We started off with the gun selection, the first few I lifted, they were heavy one, their barrel weight was just too much and it was matter of mins before I started feeling my hand tired by trying to evaluate the guns for the swings. I told uncle about it, he asked me to wait while he gets few more from the store.
http://picasaweb.google.co.in/syedakbar.ali/JammuVisit#5498806987788718962
Then came a lot of 4-5 guns and man I was holding what I wanted, it was the same gun but the barrel weight was almost something like good 30-40% less, by the seeing the look on my face, uncle smiled and told me the reason. He said that in general they make heavy barrels as the IOF, which certifies the barrels, they really don’t follow any scientific method of testing and there were incident where, in course of testing the barrel blew as the person testing it. So because of this reason, they don’t want to afford having the same incident repeated, so they have gone back to making heavy duty barrel, but they have those 4-5 pieces where the barrel weight it just perfect, they are heavier than usual trap O/U, but if you have the latest trend of using the heavy barrel so that you get better swing momentum, then this fits in that range. I played with that gun for something like 10 mins, there was no stress on hands, and the swings were good. I zeroed on 2 guns.
http://picasaweb.google.co.in/syedakbar.ali/JammuVisit#5498807065136221666
http://picasaweb.google.co.in/syedakbar.ali/JammuVisit#5498807045365793266
Then came the further refining and short listing part and looking at what all can be customized without having to change much in the existing gun. The fitting is great, the stock made is very good. In my fit there is lil more drop, but not something which was impacting my fit too much.
http://picasaweb.google.co.in/syedakbar.ali/JammuVisit#5498807108345698114
The forestock, again good quality finish, but I didn’t like the design, it was lil longer and tapered at end, but the new ones, which are in production they are the one which we usually see, they are rounded and shorter and have better grip, So mine will either replaced and the present one converted to the same shape

Barrel is 28 inch standard, they don’t make 30 inch, but on asking he said it can be made, it’s not chromed. Again I asked like a small child out to buy a dream toy , can it be done and why it’s not readily done. Ansrew came as no surprise, he had made presentation and request to the govt to be allowed to setup a processing plant for chrome plating but was refused. This didn’t dishearten me too much, I know that chrome plating, will not give me advantage in shooting, it mainly adds to the long life of the barrel and less maintenance. ( I hope I am right with the understanding)
There is no rib on it, this was dis-heartening, Again I questioned why no rib, He said that he has not being able to get the right quality rib to match the design of the gun. I was having lil difficultly in ignoring the prominent front sight while sighting, but again, I know I can start ignoring it with some practice and also reduce the size of that sight. We will work on fixing this too.
Barrel are both full choke, But they can be adjusted to the constraint we want, I would be getting improved choke and full choke.
Trigger, it’s a double trigger, but the its smooth, no extra force required. But I didn’t ask if we can tweak that pull required even further. Again we debated single and double trigger action. There is no doubt that for normal usage double is easier to maintain. He said that we can look into single trigger, but till date there was no demand for it so he has not put in effort for that.
Ejector, Yes we have ejector on it. Its single piece, ejector system. He has improved on the original inspiration of Laurona and Sarasquetas, as here its single piece mechanism. The safety is very smooth, unlike what I have seen on other locally made gun, you have to fight it. Opening and closing of the gun, smooth. Taking the gun apart and then putting back, very smooth, you get to hear nice clicking sounds once the part integrates.. Overall I was impressed and pleased with it.
Coming the wooden parts, I have to say all of those impressed me, even though there is no high tech machinery, but then even the wooden parts are being produced using machines only, not some carpenter chiseling those out. Its like a proper production layout.
http://picasaweb.google.co.in/syedakbar.ali/JammuVisit#5498806952783599234
http://picasaweb.google.co.in/syedakbar.ali/JammuVisit#5498807084387712482
The wood used is walnut, no doubt on that, its seasoned wood. The stock has the grooved cut in to put lead to balance it. But personally I loved the unpolished version of the stock, the grains are much beautiful, I told that to afzal uncle also. When I get my own I will redo it for sure.:)
http://picasaweb.google.co.in/syedakbar.ali/JammuVisit#5498806972464291346
Now coming to main part the barrel and the part, its EN-8. I saw the rods for myself. EN-8 is mild steel, which is very commonly used good quality steel. The barrel is not hardened, again I asked why the barrel is not hardened, he said that hardening process is more applicable on the rifle barrel, wherein the stress introduced is more. I did cross check with my friend who is Mechanical Engg working with Maruti in the Design Dept, he said that hardening, will not drastically improve the strength of the steel, It ensure longer wearing life of the material.
After all these inspection and playing around with the gun for more than 1 hrs, I was pretty clear on which piece I wanted, once what was done, we started gauging the gun on finer points of gun fitting. I checked the drop, ease of hold on the forearm. Uncle was spot of target when it came to measure gun fit, promptly came out the steal scale to measure the drop of the stock, length of the stock. All those were noted. So finally I had finished my process of identifying a gun, getting all the minor customizations noted down. I was relieved and happy that I was able to zero on a gun. I am sure that I was able to do it since I had the pretty much the whole inventory on disposal, had I visited a gun, selling the same guns, I would not have being able to find something 10-15 guns to select from.
Now that my hunt for gun was over, I got my target on the future perfect gun , I spoke to uncle that can he make in EN-19, which is chromium molybdenum high tensile steel, he said that he has not used it as the most commonly used steel world over and even by high profile gun makers were using the mild steel only. I gave him few instances why we should shift to EN-19 now, I was able convince of few point but not much as he is a very experienced gun maker, who is very well travelled, hunted a lot, without saying coming from good old era when guns were easily and wide variety available in India itself, has huge knowledge pool, so it’s not easy to talk him into our thoughts. Lastly he has visited several gun makers from Europe, seeing their gun making process also.
Then we discussed lot of things, first was the story of heavy barrels, its something on which they have being working, since there was never a request made to ease the weight of the gun or barrel, they have not paid much attention on it, but yea they have tried and they were successful and that the reason I got mine , but they are limited.
We moved beyond steel to further finer points, to this gun and his hard work to next level. We spoke of making 30 inch barrel, with rib and single trigger. He said that till date there has not being much demand for such weapon and very few people showed interest in it. He said that he will look into it, 30 inch barrel and EN19 steel is not an issue, but yea the trigger and rib is, he being perfectionist, doesn’t want to offload some crap in the market with rib which looks out of place and trigger mechanism which is not reliable. He said he will look into it, but the whole process of making even the first lot will take min of another 8-9 months, so that the earliest he can have the available will be in the mid of 2011. But I have more of less decided that will take this journey with him, as I realize it’s easier to sit at home and crib that we don’t have any decent O/U, but the fact is that we need together working of the shooting fraternity and the good experienced gunsmith to work together to fill the gap.
I am not boasting, but that is the history of Perrazi, it was team of shooter Ennio Mattarelli and master gun maker Daniele Perazzi. Please http://www.shootingbunker.com/WhatsInAPerazzi.html
I would be worth every penny if we can achieve even 50% of that, given the constraint in Indian env of pulling down policies and non cooperative govt.
Future course of action, I will be first selling the .12 bore that I have, will get the purchase permit for J&K, travel back to Jammu and get my beauty, start testing it on range for things like pattern, gun fit and above all heat bearing capacity of the barrel. With EN-8 in use, I am sure its capable enough of handling trap and skeet. I am sure this first step of mine, should help in passing better judgement.
I know we have not carried out the field trial, I will get my gun in another month or so, as I have to sell the current gun that I have and then again take permission for sale purchase from J&K, as my license is not all india. But still going by the finish of the gun, material used, I would definitely say its worth the money.
I would be carrying out the pattern test, evaluating the gun for it being able to handle firing of 45-50 cartridge in span of 20-30 mins, which would be closet to actual trap event or skeet event, using the same 71/2 cartridge. I will be posting the result as the main result will those of field trial, but again I think this is a smaller to step to larger evaluation.
Yea one more thing I would like thank, Amjad bhai for providing this opportunity a logistics in jammu, to visit the factory. Also I want to thank member Jazz and Vishnosingh, they also provide important inputs and were also instrumental in pushing me to make this trip.
Note: Sorry of less pic, I was too busy selecting gun and talking to afzal uncle, his knowledge is not to be missed. Also i tried more than 3 time to attach pic, but it was failure, i think something wrong with Windows 7, it took me back to blank page. Sometimes it gave me message"Sorry, the board attachment quota has been reached" It had being more than a weeks delay so posting it without further delay
http://picasaweb.google.co.in/syedakbar.ali/JammuVisit#
Last edited by sa_ali on Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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.32
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:05 pm

Re: Visit to Khairudin Gun factory

Postby .32 » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:11 pm

Informative post. How much does this Gun cost?

If I want one, can I get from some Arms dealer in Punjab?



ngrewal
Posts: 2928
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Location: US

Re: Visit to Khairudin Gun factory

Postby ngrewal » Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:49 am

sa_ali

Thanks for the write up and pictures, will post a detailed feedback later ..which type of wood do they use? Hate that hockey stick thingy.. wow McDollar's hotel :lol:

Cheers



m24
Posts: 1090
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:57 pm
Location: New Delhi

Re: Visit to Khairudin Gun factory

Postby m24 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:52 am

Thanks Syed for sharing your trip. I appreciate the positive step you have taken and totally agree with you that the shooter and the gunsmith need to work together to get a fine product. How come we don't see any pics of the three of you??

Regards


Jeff Cooper advocated four basic rules of gun safety:
1) All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3) Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.
4) Identify your target, and what is behind it.

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mundaire
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Re: Visit to Khairudin Gun factory

Postby mundaire » Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:22 am

Very nice report sa_ali. Thank you for sharing and wish you the very best in your quest, for the perfect Indian made OU :)

Cheers!
Abhijeet


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grewal
Posts: 401
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Punjab.

Re: Visit to Khairudin Gun factory

Postby grewal » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:44 pm

Very informative and inspiring . Looking out for the practical aspect of the gun. And it is really impressive that you went from Delhi to Jammu to get the first hand experience of the gun manufacturing base of Khairudin Guns. And please do tell that Mr.Afzal that selective trigger if the first and foremost feature that one looks in an u/o gun , so please do work upon it . :cpix: :cheering:


Grewal

I'd rather be riding my bike and thinking bout god than sitting in a temple and thinking bout my bike

speedy
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:54 pm
Location: Chandigarh

Re: Visit to Khairudin Gun factory

Postby speedy » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:22 pm

Sa_ Ali,

any idea about the pricing of 'Laurona and Sarasquetas' that you had mentioned in your write up?

Thanks



sa_ali
Posts: 911
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: Visit to Khairudin Gun factory

Postby sa_ali » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:38 pm

Thank you all for the words of inspiration :)
.32 wrote:How much does this Gun cost?

You can get in touch with Bhandari Gun House, bhatinda, Price is 55K.

ngrewal wrote:sa_ali
which type of wood do they use?

Kashmir Walnut, hockey stik i posted as there have being several threads where ppl have fought to get this one, so its for them :)

m24 wrote:How come we don't see any pics of the three of you??

In all this we forgot to get the pic of ourselves clicked together, but next visit i promise, it will be there, even the Factory pic i took while i was leaving back :)

grewal wrote:Afzal that selective trigger if the first and foremost feature that one looks in an u/o gun , so please do work upon it.

We did discuss it, he said that it will take longer time on it.:(

speedy wrote:any idea about the pricing of 'Laurona and Sarasquetas'

For the price of these guns, you can get in touch with the Mr Afzal directly on 09419141625, i didnt ask the exact price as i had got the hint that its in range for more than 1 lac :), So out of my reach
You can see the pic of that on this http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1156&start=120

Ali



.32
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:05 pm

Re: Visit to Khairudin Gun factory

Postby .32 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:02 pm

Thanks, will get in touch with Bhandari Gun house - Bhatinda.
Btw, how are Khairudin SxS Guns?



sa_ali
Posts: 911
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: Visit to Khairudin Gun factory

Postby sa_ali » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:36 am

I didnt check them bro, but i saw in production, the quality looks the same.



.32
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:05 pm

Re: Visit to Khairudin Gun factory

Postby .32 » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:33 pm

Thanks, got in touch with Bathinda dealer, he's asking for a advance deposit for the order but I do not have ample Purchase period. I asked him to get the Gun & I shall buy but he says nothing without advance.

Also read in the forum somewhere the cost of Khairuddin SxS to be ~ 15k, the Bathinda dealer is demanding ~ 20k!

Any low down on this?



sa_ali
Posts: 911
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: Visit to Khairudin Gun factory

Postby sa_ali » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:40 pm

I would suggest that you get in touch with Mr Afzal directly on 09419141625, He might be able to give you exact details.
In order to cut the dealer crap i went down to Jammu, if they have the gun u need ready then i would recommend that only, another advantage is that there you will have more than 3-4 guns to select from. you can try them and pick the one that fits you the best, Jst a advice from recent experience



.32
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:05 pm

Re: Visit to Khairudin Gun factory

Postby .32 » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:59 pm

That's a wise suggestion but I called up Mr Afzal, he only asked me to contact the said dealer.

In orger to buy directly from Jammu, I will have to get requisite permission, getting which is very difficult because the local authorities are least co-operative.

Btw, what's the procedure to buy Gun from Jammu, Im from Punjab?
Last edited by .32 on Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.



sa_ali
Posts: 911
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: Visit to Khairudin Gun factory

Postby sa_ali » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:24 pm

I agree that its easier to buy from Punjab it self
I have not embarked on that journey :), but i understand is that you need Purchase permission and then you need to permission to purchase from J&K as your license might be valid only for Punjab.



.32
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:05 pm

Re: Visit to Khairudin Gun factory

Postby .32 » Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:44 pm

Moreover of late the Authorities in many districts in Punjab are not not allowing additions or issue of new licences. Only ones with high influence, manage to have way. So, asking for permisison to buy from Jammu(out of State of licence) would be a headache.

Hope we had better people governing us!! :cry:




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