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The legal aspects of owning, shooting, importing arms/ ammo and other related legal aspects as well as any other legal queries. Please note: This INCLUDES all arms licensing issues/ queries!
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Please sign change.org petition and share far and wide
Replies: 48
by
mundaire » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:44 pm
» in
RKBA
First post
Humble request to share as far and wide as possible.
Regards,
Last post
While petitions can help raise awareness, they don’t always result in immediate, tangible change. To drive significant impact, consider engaging in...
- 48 Replies
- 602088 Views
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Last post by Samuel420
Thu Sep 12, 2024 4:09 pm
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- 101 Replies
- 16777215 Views
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Last post by pistolprince007
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:36 pm
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- 354 Replies
- 2899458 Views
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Last post by pekavet
Fri Aug 16, 2024 7:10 pm
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Info regarding Arms Rules 2015 - Message from NAGRI
Replies: 56
by
mundaire » Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:38 pm
» in
RKBA
First post
Important information regarding Arms Rules 2015
Dear Friends,
We are writing to solicit your support in ensuring that the upcoming the ARMS RULES...
Last post
This strategy could effectively amplify our voice and potentially create meaningful change. By utilizing digital platforms and social media, we can...
- 56 Replies
- 742223 Views
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Last post by Josephroy
Tue Nov 07, 2023 1:25 pm
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- 65 Replies
- 1100656 Views
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Last post by andy_65_in
Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:27 pm
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Expected code of conduct - MODIFIED
Replies: 44
by
mundaire » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:27 pm
» in
General ramblings
First post
Hi All,
Based on feedback from the membership, as well as much deliberations amongst the moderators here, we have decided to make some (rather...
Last post
I have posted a few times, but no proper introduction. So, I am going to do that now with a set of pictures to boot! :)
- 44 Replies
- 963434 Views
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Last post by caracass77
Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:25 pm
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Licence renewal rejected
Replies: 9
by
SYED833 » Thu May 31, 2012 7:42 pm
First post
hi all,
My station SI has given no objection for renewal.My request for renewal of licence has been rejected by dsp police.In his recommendations on...
Last post
A renewal is not automatic, even though it appears so. Every renewal is in fact a fresh application, however the licencing authority is supposed to...
- 9 Replies
- 3563 Views
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Last post by sudhaiob
Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:05 pm
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.22 rifle/revolver licence
Replies: 7
by
vivek257 » Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:32 pm
First post
i read in one of the posts here that .22 rifle and revolver don't require a licence?? Is it true? a reply from people who have this caliber firearm...
Last post
why couldn't the constitution give us right to bear arms ...?? No Constitution in the world can ever give any fundamental rights, they merely...
- 7 Replies
- 6412 Views
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Last post by goodboy_mentor
Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:25 pm
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Help needed - Air pistol license
Replies: 2
by
tiwariarrun » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:25 pm
First post
Hello everyone- I have a quick query.
Does having a air rifle at home really need any permit?
Please suggest..
Thanks,
AT
Last post
TA,
I generally do not indulge in this stuff. But, I think you are bored and like to stir the pot. You have been around here enough to know the...
- 2 Replies
- 1473 Views
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Last post by Vikram
Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:53 pm
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US man brings with him .177 air rifle for rifle club member
Replies: 10
by
Subbiah » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:21 am
First post
I am in Tamil Nadu and I am a member of the local rifle club in my town. Many members in my club have bought/imported .177 air rifles from USA...
Last post
Hi Renjith and Abhijeet,
Thank you for your contribution. Sorry about the delay in writing to you. I had this thread to send me notification if/when...
- 10 Replies
- 5266 Views
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Last post by Subbiah
Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:55 pm
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R.T.I. – HOW TO APPLY
Replies: 1
by
striker » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:09 pm
First post
Hi Guys i found them on site Hope it will help our fellows :)
website ref:
How to write an RTI Application?
Pre-requisites:
Your name, address,...
Last post
I had filed some of RTI. If PIO are not supply a Information within a specific period(30 days). You can got the information by the media which you...
- 1 Replies
- 1364 Views
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Last post by Glock 25
Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:33 pm
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RKBA at work
Replies: 1
by
timmy » Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:37 pm
First post
I received this from our local neighborhood watch association. In Texas, it is legal for a person to defend themselves from home invasions.
I expect...
Last post
thats the way to go
- 1 Replies
- 1293 Views
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Last post by nagarifle
Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:57 pm
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ALL INDIA VALIDITY
Replies: 1
by
sainikji » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:29 pm
First post
Has anyone since 2011 been granted All India Validity till date?
Last post
All india Validity of what? - Gun Licence?
- 1 Replies
- 1340 Views
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Last post by Ganesh TT
Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:47 pm
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Latest status of air gun imports
Replies: 2
by
absinroy » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:47 pm
First post
I read somewhere that by a notification published in Feb 2012 the Govt. of India has cancelled it's earlier permit to allow duty-free imports of .177...
Last post
The search feature is not very good. For e.g., I tried to search air rifle in Legal Eagle and searched Topics only. But, it says that the term I am...
- 2 Replies
- 1406 Views
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Last post by Subbiah
Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:26 pm
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archery arrow broadhead
Replies: 1
by
lionheart » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:13 am
First post
Dearfriends,
i need advise...
Can we buy or import arrow broadhead in india? is that legal?
Last post
And how about shafts, nocks and there are some fittings inside the arrows. How you are going to manage those and resupply in case you break bunch of...
- 1 Replies
- 1497 Views
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Last post by Hammerhead
Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:37 am
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- 0 Replies
- 1059 Views
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Last post by Arien73
Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:41 pm
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Any progress as to if OCIs can import firearms with them?
Replies: 1
by
Indians4Guns » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:16 pm
First post
I am currently the OCI residing in Chicago area. I send my firearm application to Chicago consulate and the vice consular there just kept on...
Last post
Hi,
my brother is also riding in same boat as you.. and wants to apply for a firearm licence in india... as to the import it is 100% true that you...
- 1 Replies
- 1285 Views
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Last post by Arien73
Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:35 pm
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Reloading ammo in India
Replies: 14
by
spacetraveller » Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:38 pm
First post
:?:
Purely from the legal point - Is reloading of ammunition allowed under the Arms Act in India or not ? :?
Please comment anyone. Thanks...
Last post
I don't know much about Indian firearm laws so pls clarify this for me, you will need a license for the .30-60 sporting rifle in order to buy .30-60...
- 14 Replies
- 5318 Views
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Last post by mundaire
Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:15 am
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law on convertion kit with guns???
Replies: 14
by
surajshuresh » Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:47 pm
First post
Hi guys i have this doubt if i get a .38 super 1911 with a .22lr conversion kit do i need 2 npb pistol licenses or can i have it under one license....
Last post
Hello guys just a another question... Does any one have 3 different calibers on one gun... Like will the license authority enter one gun with three...
- 14 Replies
- 3825 Views
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Last post by surajshuresh
Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:06 pm
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4th firearm (22lr) on a licence....
Replies: 102
by
sat » Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:29 pm
First post
I am told that a member of the NRAI, India is allowed to have a 22lr rifle on his licence as his 4th firearm, the first three being a rifle, shotgun...
Last post
Dear Vinnie,
Thanks for the reply. I have got by DBBL entered on my arms licence as fourth weapon and also got the renowned shooter mentioned on my...
- 102 Replies
- 31195 Views
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Last post by hardeepsinghbedi
Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:00 am
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Do elections mean no legal sale and purchase.
Replies: 1
by
nasada » Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:12 pm
First post
Elections declared in Himachal Pradesh on 3rd oct 2012. Section 144 imposed.
DM offices stopped work of entry of weapon, deletion of weapon or...
Last post
oh crap! Now i understand what abhijeet sir meant by picking the worst possible time to apply for a license!!oh well, at least i can still sign up...
- 1 Replies
- 1188 Views
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Last post by Raptor
Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:40 pm
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Regarding .380 & .45 bore pistol
Replies: 5
by
hardeepsinghbedi » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:53 pm
First post
Dear Everyone,
Please anybody can confirm that .380 and .45 pistol comes under NPB or PB Bore in Haryana. In case its under NPB bore please send me...
Last post
If the licensing authorities enter a .45ACP as an NPB, then they are breaking the law.Ignorance of law is not a valid defence.Period! I would echo...
- 5 Replies
- 4245 Views
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Last post by Vikram
Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:42 pm
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Can dealers refuse selling of Ammo on legit license?
Replies: 9
by
Armour » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:39 pm
First post
Hi Esteemed Members,
I was just wondering if finally getting a license & a weapon the end of all bureaucratic miseries? Guess not, most state police...
Last post
Dear Armour,
After going through your post, I think I can put this question to you which has not been answered to my satisfaction till date via link...
- 9 Replies
- 3005 Views
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Last post by sainikji
Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:44 pm
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The Semi Auto Conundrum
Replies: 5
by
Safarigent » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:27 pm
First post
The arms rules 1962 states thus:
8. (a) no license shall be granted for acquisition, possession or carrying of arms or ammunition of categories 1b,...
Last post
Only High Courts/Supreme Court or Parliament can officially clarify the matter. But you know how the things are in this country.
- 5 Replies
- 2544 Views
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Last post by goodboy_mentor
Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:10 pm
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Delhi New Rule for issuance of cartridges
Replies: 10
by
sainikji » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:55 pm
First post
As per a meeting held on 10 or 12th October, 2012, directions have been issued to Arms dealers as NOT TO SALE more than 10 cartridges to licencees...
Last post
fools always trying to bring down the vehicle population to prevent accident
- 10 Replies
- 2714 Views
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Last post by striker
Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:21 pm
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Should ammo be produced before police and collector
Replies: 11
by
SYED833 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:14 am
First post
Hi
Should ammo purchased on a fresh license be produced before the licensing authority and the police??
I produced the weapon before both of them and...
Last post
Mr Syed be assertive in your talk and presentation .Most learned cousels (lawers) do not know about the arms act and rules. Please keep quiet and...
- 11 Replies
- 2780 Views
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Last post by veeveeaar
Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:43 pm
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Procedure to buy arms and ammo directly from The NRAI
Replies: 3
by
veeveeaar » Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:18 am
First post
What is the procedure to buy arms and ammo by licencees directly from the NRAI ? . Please give step by step details.
Last post
I am a life member of the local rifle club, affiliated to NRAI . So am i eligible or pay a separate fee and become a member? Should i get a NOC from...
- 3 Replies
- 1914 Views
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Last post by mundaire
Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:05 pm
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Can I inherit my grandfather's rifle directly ...
Replies: 10
by
kaushaltomar » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:44 pm
First post
Hi Friends,
Can someone help me in guiding if I can inherit my grandfather’s Brno ( double set trigger) .256 Czech made rifle, in accordance to...
Last post
PB licenses CAN BE and ARE issued on transfer of family heirloom, in fact it is one of the few circumstances under which PB licenses are currently...
- 10 Replies
- 8644 Views
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Last post by mundaire
Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:17 pm
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Import of Wooden Stock and Match Sights
Replies: 1
by
prasad.tamhane » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:23 am
First post
Hi Guys,
I would like to inquire if ordering and receiving parcel containing only the rifle stock and peep sights will cause me any trouble with...
Last post
hi
have you recieved your stock. share some of your experiences.
regards
- 1 Replies
- 1133 Views
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Last post by denong
Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:59 pm
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Ammo Quota for Target Practice
by
veeveeaar » Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:28 pm
My friend has got a .22 rifle licence, after a prolonged legal battle. Now he has been issued a licence with 50/ 150 as ammo quota. He has appealed...
- 0 Replies
- 1038 Views
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Last post by veeveeaar
Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:28 pm
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Help needed regarding to the Application for an Arms Licence
Replies: 2
by
FN-Five-Seven » Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:01 am
First post
Hello members ,
I am in the process of getting a IOF .22LR revolver for self protection . I have some help to ask of you guys regarding to the...
Last post
Hi goodboy_mentor ,
Thanks a million for your reply . I really appreciate your advice .
FN-Five-Seven
- 2 Replies
- 1468 Views
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Last post by FN-Five-Seven
Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:42 am
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ban on catapult.
Replies: 11
by
dr.jayakumar » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:43 am
First post
what will happen to our country with this over enthusiastic n..ts.after this they will want ban knives,sticks,stones and what not!!
i think we...
Last post
we might need a new section on the board to fight against catapult ban , even better a new forum ' INDIANS FOR RUBBER' ROTFL
Pokemon ban, lost their...
- 11 Replies
- 3103 Views
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Last post by wingsoffires66
Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:40 pm
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n.r.a.i new law about shooters
Replies: 4
by
shariq » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:39 pm
First post
i have heard that n.r.a.i is fighting against the issue of arms licence to shooters from dist magistrate in a short time n.r.a.i will isuue the...
Last post
How will this impact non-renowned shooters, i.e. the self defence license seekers?
- 4 Replies
- 1967 Views
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Last post by essdee1972
Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:00 pm
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renewal of expired license
Replies: 2
by
brar » Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:06 pm
First post
Gun gurus _/\_
my all india license issued from up expired on 8.9.12
and want to renew at bathinda pb.
please guide me what are the formelities...
Last post
Sir
thanx
- 2 Replies
- 1391 Views
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Last post by brar
Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:17 pm
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- 0 Replies
- 859 Views
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Last post by Bespoke
Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:32 pm
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- 0 Replies
- 1338 Views
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Last post by aaroraa
Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:12 am
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Prohibited bore in HP
Replies: 4
by
Glock 25 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:40 pm
First post
According 32, acp .22, .357, .44, .25 etc., are all NPB calibres and licenses for these are issued by the local licensing authority (the SDM in the...
Last post
Category 1b and c in Schedule 1 of Arms Rules 1962 have been given the name of prohibited bores by the babudom . If you read Category 1c in Schedule...
- 4 Replies
- 1949 Views
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Last post by goodboy_mentor
Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:44 pm
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How many weapn can entered in one licence
Replies: 2
by
Glock 25 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:01 pm
First post
Ramadeep Image.JPG I want that how many weapon can entered in the One Licence and the Minimun and Maximun Capicty of ammunation. Accocrding to...
Last post
A normal licence allows to carry 3 fire arms. And a sports licence with 4.
May be above guns in image belongs to family members, or inherited.
- 2 Replies
- 1460 Views
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Last post by soumithra.177
Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:31 pm
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Problem with Registering Rifle with Police Station
Replies: 9
by
vivekpeter » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:48 am
First post
Hi my fellow IFGians,
I have a very strange problem at hand. I have purchased my 30-06 rifle under my state-valid NP bore rifle license. I was...
Last post
Thank you guys for your support!!!!
@GBM - I already got my weapon registered by the PA General in my collectorate, and the details of my weapon...
- 9 Replies
- 3039 Views
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Last post by vivekpeter
Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:55 pm
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Police verification question
Replies: 5
by
inplainsight » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:23 pm
First post
Hello All,
I applied for my Arms License from Delhi a few weeks ago and was visited by the local constable today.
He asked me to meet his SI...
Last post
a) Two neighbors who will give sworn statements regarding me.
b) Their ID Proof's Legally not required under Arms Act 1959. Who are neighbors to give...
- 5 Replies
- 2123 Views
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Last post by dr.jayakumar
Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:46 am
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Govt. wants entire world to know that you have firearms!
Replies: 27
by
goodboy_mentor » Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:52 am
First post
What the hell! Just like the details of criminals are published so that entire world knows them, government wants entire world to know your details...
Last post
This is told BS i dont mind the government maintaining a data base for official purpose but putting personal information like this to the public is...
- 27 Replies
- 7392 Views
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Last post by surajshuresh
Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:02 pm
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ARMS AMENDMENT RULES 2012
Replies: 51
by
neeraj » Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:12 pm
First post
MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS
NOTIFICATION
New Delhi, the 24th July, 2012
GS.R. 585(E):-In exercise of the powers conferred by Sections5, 9, 10, 11, 12,...
Last post
@rabepobemababe
There is no hurry to reply just for the sake of replying. I would would request you that before replying, please take time to read a...
- 51 Replies
- 13597 Views
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Last post by goodboy_mentor
Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:53 pm
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License under family heirloom
Replies: 2
by
Roland » Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:28 am
First post
Hello everyone,
I am in the process of getting a license under family heirloom.
The said license is All India Validity for a 12 bore dbbl gun and a...
Last post
Many thanks Goodboy_Mentor for your time and patience!
I give them a good fight and will continue to do so.
It's been going on since 2008 and the...
- 2 Replies
- 1578 Views
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Last post by Roland
Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:12 pm
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LETS GO TO HIGH COURT TOGETHER , FOR ARMS IMPORT !
Replies: 30
by
sudhirkh » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:22 pm
First post
LETS GO TO HIGH COURT TOGETHER !
Its been long we are discussing about going to high and challenge the union govt. , but till today I never heard...
Last post
I am in too. Just give me details of bank account to which deposit is to be made..
- 30 Replies
- 8150 Views
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Last post by nitinsoni
Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:16 pm
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2 license for npb handgun
Replies: 7
by
perfectionist1 » Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:18 pm
First post
Sirs,
I live in city A and my permanent residence is city B, both of same state.
I have a npb handgun license issued from city A, my queries are as...
Last post
So by default if someone applies for a license in a city then does he not get it for the whole state? Do you have to separately apply if you want it...
- 7 Replies
- 1928 Views
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Last post by Bhargav
Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:05 am
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‘CERTIFICATE OF CAPABILITY TO HANDLE FIREARMS’
Replies: 29
by
mbsolan » Fri May 18, 2012 5:11 pm
First post
In reference to guidelines in notification no.v-11016/16/2009-Arms Ministry of Home Affairs dated 31-3-2010:-
‘’The “prescribed time” under Section...
Last post
In this matter it appears the ignorance and probably pliable nature of some arms license applicants is more responsible.
- 29 Replies
- 8973 Views
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Last post by goodboy_mentor
Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:58 pm
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POSSIBILITY OF RENEWING SUSPENDED LICENSE
Replies: 1
by
wasimansari » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:07 am
First post
HI GUYS
Need your help on below ...... It would really help me.
MY grandfather use to have two guns 1 revolver and 1rifle before he passed away...
Last post
This matter is already discussed in the forum. Please use the search box before creating new threads. Creating more and more threads on the same...
- 1 Replies
- 1074 Views
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Last post by goodboy_mentor
Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:03 pm
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Adding a New Weapon on the License
Replies: 5
by
Mubi » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:56 pm
First post
Dear Members,
I have a license for Shotgun, i want to add pistol on my license do i have to apply for a new pistol license or i can ask for a...
Last post
Thanks Vineet.
As I said earlier, my knowledge was not accurate, but multiple weapon is allowed only to a limited states in India.
Certainly not...
- 5 Replies
- 1687 Views
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Last post by perfectionist1
Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:32 pm
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I already ordered a LP8 rws air pistol .177 by courier
Replies: 2
by
hidecide » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:50 am
First post
Dear all ,
Good morning... I was under the impression that .177 air pistol , spring action, break barrel can be imported without a hassel.
My...
Last post
Dear Kandarp,
Thanks for help , I am not in touch with anyone from the rifle clubs. Of course I will talk to the customs officer and explain...
- 2 Replies
- 1355 Views
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Last post by hidecide
Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:11 pm
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how much ammo one can buy and do you have to report it
Replies: 6
by
warthog » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:35 pm
First post
I head that under news rules you have to tell the police how much ammo you used and where you used and there is a limit of only 30 rounds?
Last post
Mumbai police now require an NOC from the local police station; a new form where one has to account for the ammo one has purchased, used, where used...
- 6 Replies
- 1764 Views
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Last post by amk
Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:31 pm
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Paintball guns
Replies: 18
by
Rushabh » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:16 am
First post
Hello,
I've been trying to find some information and am glad to have come across this forum. I want to know if an arms license is required to own...
Last post
I want to import 10 tippmann markers,please suggest me the port I should use in India.will anybody recommend any other make besides tippmann for...
- 18 Replies
- 25395 Views
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Last post by anujmata
Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:32 pm
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Re:RTI
Replies: 1
by
Safarigent » Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:13 pm
First post
Would a sports body like the NRAI come under the purview of the RTI act?
Thanks,
A
Last post
Extract of Article 12 of the Constitution of India:-
“12. In this Part unless the context otherwise requires, ‘the state’ includes the Government...
- 1 Replies
- 1568 Views
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Last post by goodboy_mentor
Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:56 pm
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Export of gun for reconditioning
Replies: 9
by
kaps4747 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:43 pm
First post
Hello,
Please guide on the procedure, if it is permitted on the procedure of export of my gun out of the country for reconditioning.
Details...
Last post
by the time you get all your papers ready,you would have grown too old to handle a gun...sorry to say this. :deadhorse:
dr.jk
Hey Doc!
I have...
- 9 Replies
- 2641 Views
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Last post by Nitro Express
Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:43 am
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Guidelines per se do not partake to the character of statute
Replies: 7
by
goodboy_mentor » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:09 am
First post
Since MHA has created confusion and messed up arms licensing by issuing periodic guidelines which are against the provisions of Arms Act 1959 as well...
Last post
Another Supreme Court judgment related to this matter in Subhash Ramkumar Bind @ Vakil & Anr vs State Of Maharashtra on 12 November, 2002(complete...
- 7 Replies
- 4632 Views
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Last post by goodboy_mentor
Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:29 pm
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Can Police Deposit my Gun on Someone's Application
Replies: 7
by
desaibhargav » Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:14 pm
First post
I have a neighbor who is making applications to the Superitendent of Police that my possessing the licensed revolver is a threat to his and his...
Last post
Everyone has pretty well answered, especially Vineet and tiwariarrun have summarized the points. I would like to add the following:
1. Do not give...
- 7 Replies
- 2068 Views
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Last post by goodboy_mentor
Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:53 pm
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No reply to RTI
Replies: 17
by
Safarigent » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:49 am
First post
I had filed an RTI application to the Delhi Police licensing branch in july and havent received any reply from them yet.
Upon calling them today, i...
Last post
Thank you prashant sir.
I am also waiting for the replies.
but realistically, i am expecting them to fob off the questions and/or give incorrect/...
- 17 Replies
- 5434 Views
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Last post by Safarigent
Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:04 am
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