.357 Magnum in 1911

[timmy]

1911 in 357: I would have to believe that the frame of these pistols is larger than the standard 45 ACP, because the 357 is 1.59" long and e 45 ACP is only 1.275" long. Since so many people crab about the large grip of 1911, I am wondering if this version in 357 makes things worse?

My understanding about "beaver tails" also relates to the 1911's large grip and small hands -- in small hands, the pistol supposedly rocks and allows to web of the forefinger - thumb to ride up and get pinched between the hammer and frame. I say "understanding," since my 1911 doesn't have any beaver tail and I've neve been pinched by it. Those things always seemed to me to be a big problem when looking to conceal the pistol. But then again, I never saw the rational for extended slide releases or big canoe paddles on the safety, either. Not that there is anything wrong with this stuff if someone needs them, but I don't and so I wouldn't be interested in having all of the projections on something I owned.

I do think that the 357 version would be interesting. For my own use, I would be interested in. 38 Special version only, that would shoot ally light target loads like the old Smith and Wessons. But that's just me, and these look pretty good, other than the beaver tail and the canoe paddle safety.

[Sakobav]

I swear there is a sonic concussion kind of effect when I am shooting next to a chap with 45 1911. I find myself flinching in anticipation of shot at indoor gun ranges with this mini canon

[Skyman]

Has anyone else noticed this?

[Grumpy]

Same applies to those with large hands ..... and those with a large web. Whatever - hammerbite REALLY hurts.
I always found that an extended beavertail - especially those that wrap around the hammer more - is really useful in helping to locate the gun in the hand when withdrawing it from a holster. Extended and ambidextrous features on a semi-auto pistol aren`t necessary for normal use ( apart from an extended grip safety if one is prone to hammerbite ) but allow the gun to be operated more securely and more quickly. As such their niche is in competition and law enforcement use. The 1911 and it`s variants aren`t exactly the easiest handguns to conceal at the best of times.
The Smith & Wesson Model 52 was a very nice handgun - well made, accurate and ergonomically sound. ( Most of the S&W semi-autos that followed it were pretty poor and had a stupid grip angle. ) The M52 is one of those handguns that people who`ve had one invariably soon regret passing it on. What sort of money do they make nowadays ? If not excessive, wouldn`t it make more sense to look for good M52 instead of hoping for a .38 Sp version of the Coonan ? I see no mention of a reduced power recoil spring in the Coonan specs.

[timmy]

I swear there is a sonic concussion kind of effect when I am shooting next to a chap with 45 1911. I find myself flinching in anticipation of shot at indoor gun ranges with this mini canon

That's interesting! I always noted this when shooting or shooting with others with 357, 44 Mag, and my hot reloads out of a Ruger in 45 Colt. I always attributed it to hi pressure rounds.

[Grumpy]

The .45 acp isn`t bad compared to the `concussive` effects of a 10mm ......or 9mm +P ..... and you ought to stand next to someone using a 9x25 with a muzzle brake ! Short barrelled magnum revolvers are pretty evil - especially if they have a muzzle brake.
The .45 acp is no `hand cannon`.

[xl_target]

Grumpy, I can assure you that there is no chance of hammer bite with the Coonan. The recoil is very controllable and the fireballs (after dark) are very impressive. It is a surprisingly accurate handgun and very flat shooting. Dan has shot up to 230 grain bullets in it (for bowling pins) so the versatility (vs. a 1911 in .45 ACP) is there too. One comment you hear often is ; "it's like shooting a laser". Also, the Desert Eagle is a crew served weapon compared to the Coonan.

TIm,
It is not much larger than a standard 1911. It is a little taller as the grip is longer. The grip is also a little bit wider to accommodate the cartridge but it is not objectionably so. It is not a true 1911 action as it uses a standard pivoting trigger. The hard part was getting the magazine to feed the rimmed rounds without encountering rimlock. Dan Coonan was finally able to do that. This is a very soft shooting handgun considering that it's firing the .357 Mag cartridge.

TC,
The pistol was not a commercial failure. Coonan can't make them fast enough today, now that Dan has the company back. They sold plenty of the first model too. It's just that the company that took over when Dan sold it, couldn't make a go of it. However, they are not a Ruger or a Smith and Wesson but a small shop making a specialty handgun and production numbers are always going to be limited.


Baljit, Here are the ones that I could find (of my daughter with the Coonan). I know there are more on the forum but I can't seem to get the search feature to pull older posts up. It is one of her all time favorite handguns. Do a google search for "Coonan ring of fire" - very impressive looking!








This one is the Coonan Commander. They don't currently make it. It is a shortened version of the full size Coonan and was offered in the past.



All these photos were taken by Oleg except for the first one.

[TC]

XL,
I didn't have the opportunity to follow the company's history. In fact now I think the first model I referred to arrived a few years earlier, in the late 80s may be.
Thanks for the update my friend. Will try to fish out the first test report this weekend and post.

Thanks for sharing photos of the Coonan though I must admit I could only see the smile on the face of a proud father.
If there is one person on earth I am jealous of then it must be your daughter ...
How come she gets to play with all the good guns, get photographed and ride a horse too ?

My best wishes to the young lady

TC

[xl_target]

TC,
I don't remember the exact dates but yes, I believe, it was in the '80's sometime that the first Coonan's were produced.
I believe the fans call the new model the Coonan B model to differentiate from the earlier model.

[FN-Five-Seven]

Pardon my ignorance , but I don't get the logic behind manufacturing a 1911 which can chamber & fire a .357 Mag cartridge .
I mean if I want a classy looking firearm which can chamber & fire .357 Mag ammo , I would go for a S&W Model 686 The American Series .



And if I want a classy looking pistol which would chamber & fire .45 ACP rounds I would go for a 1911 , eyes closed .
If I wanted a good reliable , full size ( standard ) pistol which would chamber & fire .45 ACP rounds , I would go for a GLOCK 21 GEN 4 .

As far as I know , a 1911 would feel a certain way while holding due to the weight of the full metal body ( frame & slide ) and the heavy .45 ACP ammo , and also the the gun would recoil a certain way due the .45 ACP ammo . The feel would be missing it was made to chamber & fire .357 Mag ammo . In my opinion , it would cease to be a 1911 anymore .

It would be just like plonking a 5.7 ltr Toyota Tundra engine under the hood of a 1969 Dodge Charger , which has a original 7.2 ltr engine .

Regards

F-N-Five-Seven

[xl_target]

Pardon my ignorance , but I don't get the logic behind manufacturing a 1911 which can chamber & fire a .357 Mag cartridge .
I mean if I want a classy looking firearm which can chamber & fire .357 Mag ammo , I would go for a S&W Model 686 The American Series .

[ Image ]

And if I want a classy looking pistol which would chamber & fire .45 ACP rounds I would go for a 1911 , eyes closed .
If I wanted a good reliable , full size ( standard ) pistol which would chamber & fire .45 ACP rounds , I would go for a GLOCK 21 GEN 4 .

As far as I know , a 1911 would feel a certain way while holding due to the weight of the full metal body ( frame & slide ) and the heavy .45 ACP ammo , and also the the gun would recoil a certain way due the .45 ACP ammo . The feel would be missing it was made to chamber & fire .357 Mag ammo . In my opinion , it would cease to be a 1911 anymore .

It would be just like plonking a 5.7 ltr Toyota Tundra engine under the hood of a 1969 Dodge Charger , which has a original 7.2 ltr engine .

Regards

F-N-Five-Seven

Your question seems to be; "why"?
Well, to that I would say; "Why Not".

Just because it's a 1911 doesn't mean it should only fire .45 ACP. 1911's today are made in many different calibers like 9mm, 40 S&W, 38 Super, etc.
The .357 Mag is a damn good cartridge as far as handgun cartridges go. It is powerful, flat shooting and in most handguns, quite accurate. It will significantly out perform the .45 ACP in almost every way. It certainly has more velocity and muzzle energy than the .45 ACP. You are also going to get a little better performance out of the cartridge in a semi-auto rather than in a revolver, as there is no barrel-cylinder gap in the semi-auto.
What's so great about the 1911 today? It is a slim, generally reliable, semi-auto that can be carried concealed relatively easily (with the right holster and the right belt).
Revolvers, to me, don't carry easily. The cylinder's width makes them bulky for carry. It doesn't bother some people but it bothers me.
Would I carry a Coonan? No. It is a great range toy and could be used for hunting. Is it possible to carry the Coonan concealed? Sure, with the right belt and holster.
Would I carry a 1911 in .45 ACP or other caliber? Sure.

Classy? That is in the eye of the beholder.
As far as Glock's go, I am not so enamored with them. They are big, blocky and bulky and they look, to me, like a cheap Chinese toy. Do they work? Most certainly.
Why would I prefer a 1911 over a Glock? The 1911 has a more ergonomic grip angle, it is slimmer and fits my hand better. Do they work? Most certainly.
So the preference for either pistol above is purely subjective.

Recoil? That is also subjective.
It is a question of training, experience, familiarity with the firearm, sensitivity to noise, etc. (there is no substitute for effective hearing protection, especially for beginners).

[youtube][/youtube]
Watch the first guy's grip? His grip opens up a little as he fires. See how high the muzzle is when the ejected cartridge is level with his head.
There are two reasons for this. One is that his elbows are rested on the table and the other that he is holding it loosely. Nothing wrong with that. Different people deal with recoil differently.
Near the end of the video, you will notice that the gun shows significant recoil. Also notice that he has to reapply his grip after every shot. You shouldn't have to do that. It is not conducive to fast follow up shots.

[youtube][/youtube]
Now watch this guy shoot it. See the difference in how the recoil is handled?
Watch also how he doesn't have to reapply his grip after every shot.

Now look at the photos of my daughter that I posted shooting the Coonan. She is 5 ft. 2 inches tall and weighs about 100 lbs soaking wet.
See where the muzzle is when the ejected cartridge is level with her head. She has shot guns much more powerful than the Coonan and not been bothered by the recoil.

If Baljit purchases the Coonan, you will have to request that he posts some video of himself shooting it.
I guarantee that he will not be reapplying his grip after every shot. In fact, he will probably be able to empty that pistol as fast as he can pull the trigger and still keep it on target. His shooting skills are way above 90% of the people out there, me included.

[timmy]

1911's today are made in many different calibers like 9mm, 40 S&W, 38 Super, etc.

38 Super is a fine cartridge and has been around for quite some time, as well. If the 1911 was made to headspace the 38 Super on the case mouth, like the 45 ACP is, rather than on the "semi rim" over a small arc on the top of the barrel, I think it would have gotten a lot more attention and better accuracy.

The .357 Mag is a damn good cartridge as far as handgun cartridges go. It is powerful, flat shooting and in most handguns, quite accurate. It will significantly out perform the .45 ACP in almost every way. It certainly has more velocity and muzzle energy than the .45 ACP. You are also going to get a little better performance out of the cartridge in a semi-auto rather than in a revolver, as there is no barrel-cylinder gap in the semi-auto.

All this is quite true. I can't say I like the 357 that much, but that's just me. as a close range weapon, I don't see myself at a disadvantage with the 45 ACP, but almost all of that sort of discussion is warm stove fodder. As you say, the 357 is a great cartridge.

What's so great about the 1911 today? It is a slim, generally reliable, semi-auto that can be carried concealed relatively easily (with the right holster and the right belt).
Revolvers, to me, don't carry easily. The cylinder's width makes them bulky for carry. It doesn't bother some people but it bothers me.

If I lay my 1911 and my Colt Detective Special side by side, the rectangle that would contain each is about the same in both dimensions. A revolver's shape is bulky and more awkward, making it more difficult to conceal, and for sure the thin 1911 is easier to conceal than the bulging cylinder, as you note.

Before one says, "yes, but a Chief Special is thinner than your Detective Special!" For sure, but it gives away one more round in what is already a losing capacity comparison (Detective Special = 6 rounds; 1911 = 7 rounds in the magazine + 1 in the chamber.)

The 1911 has a more ergonomic grip angle, it is slimmer and fits my hand better. Do they work? Most certainly.

You have to get up pretty early in the morning to top a John Moses Browning design. Many have tried and maybe one in a million comes sorta close...

Recoil? That is also subjective.
It is a question of training, experience, familiarity with the firearm, sensitivity to noise, etc. (there is no substitute for effective hearing protection, especially for beginners).

Now, here is someone who knows what he's talking about!

XL, congratulations! You have said it true six ways to Sunday.

[Moin.]

Pa'aji thats a beautiful 1911. A dodo question is when the .357 rounds are much smaller than the .45 why is the magazine capacity kept as 7+1 and not more.

SirXl you are one proud Daddy.

Regards
Moin.

[xl_target]

How come she gets to play with all the good guns, get photographed and ride a horse too ?

My roommate in college came from a farming family. I spent a lot of time with them and she has been hanging around her "uncle Joel" since she was knee high to a grasshopper. Uncle Joel has no daughters, just four boys; her "cousins". She gets to play with all Uncle Joel's toys, ride his horses and his ATV's, shoot his guns, anything she wants. Hell, he even let her drive his precious Mustang Cobra that he wouldn't let his boys drive. Uncle Joel doesn't say "no" to her.
As to why she gets photographed a lot? Oleg thinks she is photogenic and easy to get along with. BTW, Oleg is a big promoter of the Coonan. The camo version she is shooting in some of the shots is his. The stainless finished one in the other shots is a loaner from the factory.

All this is quite true. I can't say I like the 357 that much, but that's just me. as a close range weapon, I don't see myself at a disadvantage with the 45 ACP, but almost all of that sort of discussion is warm stove fodder. As you say, the 357 is a great cartridge.

Quite right Tim. While the .357 Magnum is ballistically superior to the .45 ACP, I would be hesitant to use it for home defense/self defense.
Too much penetration? A big slower bullet has its advantages.

If not excessive, wouldn`t it make more sense to look for good M52 instead of hoping for a .38 Sp version of the Coonan ? I see no mention of a reduced power recoil spring in the Coonan specs.

Coonan does supply the gun with a lighter spring for use with the .38 Special cartridge. It comes in the box with the gun. The same magazine is used for both cartridges.

A dodo question is when the .357 rounds are much smaller than the .45 why is the magazine capacity kept as 7+1 and not more.

While the .357 Mag cartridge is slimmer than the .45 ACP cartridge, the .357 Mag is longer. So the grip area has to have more depth. For a normal hand to fit, you have to make it as slim as possible. Also the magazine has a pivoting follower to prevent rimlock as the .357 is a rimmed cartridge. That takes some room too.

Baljit,
My only advice to you, if you buy the gun; get extra magazines when you buy the gun.

[Skyman]

The recoil of a 1911 firing a .45 is quite manageable is it not?