The last state in the USA just passed a concealed carry law

[bennedose]

Why do you think conceal carry is not good? If you carry an open handgun, IMO, you will most likely get shot in the first should there ever be a shooting.

Maybe some other time or thread - xl_target has specifically requested that we don't discuss this - but there are a few things that I would like views about.

[xl_target]

In Illinois, however, there was no legal way to carry a handgun with you unless you were at the range, on private property or were one of “the chosen few” who were given a permit. The courts forced Illinois to create a permit system with the threat that if they did not, the court would create one.
Otherwise everything that Vikram says is true.

Thanks for taking the trouble to make a detailed response.

In Illinois, how would one carry a gun from home to shooting range? Would a shopping stopover en route be illegal?

Cased in the trunk and unloaded is legal.

[xl_target]

Concealed carry vs open carry; I knew it would come up and I didn't want to hijack Mark's thread.
Bennedose, please start a new thread if you would like to have a discussion on the subject.

[Vikram]

Why do you think conceal carry is not good? If you carry an open handgun, IMO, you will most likely get shot in the first should there ever be a shooting.

Maybe some other time or thread - xl_target has specifically requested that we don't discuss this - but there are a few things that I would like views about.

If you would like to discuss the subject, do start a fresh thread.

[bennedose]

If you would like to discuss the subject, do start a fresh thread.

Will do that - I need to pen down some thoughts.

[Mark]

I don't understand what has been done. Could someone explain? Does this mean that it is illegal all over America to carry a concealed handgun and that any handguns must be carried out in the open?

No need to worry about hijacking "my" thread, I am probably more guilty than most for doing it!

The main reason for not doing it is if in the future someone is doing a search to answer a question they may have, it can be hard to find something you remembered discussing a few months or years earlier...

Anyway, to answer your question I will try to explain some of the complicated and possibly contradictory laws on the books here.

We have rights given to us by our Constitution, and then there are Federal laws, and then there are State laws. Sometimes they go back and forth.

Some states have always allowed "open carry", where you wear a gun out in the open usually in a holster on your belt. These laws have usually existed from the beginning of our country when people needed or used their guns daily and therefore were never changed or met with much resistance when attempts were made to change them.

"Concealed carry" where the gun is prohibited from being seen by anyone has been allowed in many States but usually has either had restrictions or required a permit. Until recently, the individual States have made their own restrictions for this.

One "loophole" in gun laws here is when "open carry" is permitted, the person can still be arrested for "causing a disturbance" simply by the act of wearing an exposed firearm even if the act is legal but bothers someone. So a person has to research what is permitted in any States he or she plans on visiting. Unlike a drivers license, not all States will recognize the licenses from other States, leaving a person vulnerable to being charged with serious crimes should they cross a State border.

[Mark]

I guess I'm going to have to break down and get a 9mm now. Those compact 45's look pretty tempting but I think I'll get another full size 45 first, and a compact 9 would carry a lot lighter than a 45 would.

Try out the Ruger LC9. It did take some getting used to but now I have been carrying it almost exclusively.
I've pretty much stopped carrying anything else as pocket carry with this pistol is so convenient.

I posted a review on the LC9
http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=20793

So can you just slip this thing into your pocket and not have it bulge too much? One of my biases is that I like an exposed hammer.I think I only have one hammerless pistol (a .25) so I'll have to fiddle around a bit before making a decision. One that I am leaning toward right now is the EAA Witness in 9mm with a 3.6" barrel:


However, it is also offered in 45ACP:


They are also offered in steel and polymer frames, I'll probably get the polymer version for slightly lighter weight and corrosion protection.

[soul]

California has a very interesting court case going on regarding concealed carry permits. It is quite interesting development in this "nanny" state, and am closely observing the developments.

In California, through legislative process the folks voted themselves out of open carry in 2012 (mostly democrats, and clueless Asians like us). Basically it is now illegal to open carry firearm in California. The only option to carry firearm in public is through concealed carry permit. In most of the urban counties, such as Santa Clara it is almost impossible to get CCW (concealed carry weapon) permit as the Sheriff demand valid cause to carry (may issue). In rural areas and most of the US states, if you are not having any criminal background and mental health issues they will always give you CCW and it is called as "shall issue". [do note, we do not need any license to purchase and keep the firearm in home for self protection. This issue is for carrying the weapon in public]

So in the case between Edward Peruta versus San Diego Sheriff, a key point was raised that due to ban on open carry and not giving CCW the Sheriff the county is essentially providing no option for people to exercise their 2nd amendment (right to self defend). The highly liberal 9th circuit court judges ruled in favor of Peruta in Feb 2014 and that became the most exciting part for firearm lovers like us.

The state attorney general, Kamala Harris who is vehement anti-gun AG has brought in a stay which is being evaluated by the 9th court. If she is blocked, California and few other states will be come "shall" carry like the rest of the US.

Do go through the oral arguments and the court order, it has some detailed preparations. All is available at

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/content/vie ... 0000000722

http://michellawyers.com/guncasetracker ... vsandiego/

[soul]

It appears that most of the midwest will allow reciprocity, here is a cut and paste:

Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, Wisconsin

I guess I'm going to have to break down and get a 9mm now. Those compact 45's look pretty tempting but I think I'll get another full size 45 first, and a compact 9 would carry a lot lighter than a 45 would.

Easy to use map for CCW reciprocity is available at http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry ... ation.html

[soul]

I don't understand what has been done. Could someone explain? Does this mean that it is illegal all over America to carry a conceled handgun and that any handguns must be carried out in the open?

All states allow concealed carry, some without permit (Arizona) while rest through a permit. Most of the states are so called "shall issue", meaning if you have no criminal background and mentally fit then they cannot deny you a permit. Few states, and counties within the state are "may issue" meaning you will need a valid cause to conceal carry and its up to the local Sheriff to approve you a permit.

Open carry was legal in most states, but few like California have banned open carry (in 2012) thanks to those who are fearful of weapons due to ignorance and forgetting history.

To summarize -

1) Right to own weapon for home defense - no license or permit required in US
2) Open carry - allowed in most states, except few
3) Concealed carry - most states are "shall issue", few remaining "may issue" states are fighting back using public emotions against mass shootings which has nothing to do with concealed carry owners in terms of statistics.

[soul]

In Illinois, however, there was no legal way to carry a handgun with you unless you were at the range, on private property or were one of “the chosen few” who were given a permit. The courts forced Illinois to create a permit system with the threat that if they did not, the court would create one.
Otherwise everything that Vikram says is true.

Thanks for taking the trouble to make a detailed response.

In Illinois, how would one carry a gun from home to shooting range? Would a shopping stopover en route be illegal?

Cased in the trunk and unloaded is legal.

That is correct, in California unloaded (no ammunition attached to weapon) and locked (fully encased) is allowed from and to ranges or traveling.
I just put a small lock on the bag zippers and it makes it legal.

[xl_target]

So can you just slip this thing into your pocket and not have it bulge too much? One of my biases is that I like an exposed hammer.I think I only have one hammerless pistol (a .25) so I'll have to fiddle around a bit before making a decision. One that I am leaning toward right now is the EAA Witness in 9mm with a 3.6" barrel:
[ Image ]

I prefer a hammer fired DA/SA handgun too.
The Ruger has a hammer but it is bobbed. Being a double action handgun, the hammer cannot be cocked anyway so it doesn't matter.
It took a while to get used to it but it is dead reliable (haven't had a single failure yet). Once I got used to the trigger, it is actually pretty accurate.
I got tired with carrying a pistol at 4 'o'clock, especially when driving. I much prefer pocket carry now. The pistol totally disappears when in the pocket, even in jeans.


The Witness are decent pistols. They are Tanfoglio pistols.
In general Tanfoglio makes decent firearms. The name is not that well known in the US but is popular in Europe.
When the CZ75 was made, the commies considered it a "state secret" and nothing was patented. So Tanfoglio cheerfully started making CZ clones and have been for a very long time.
Tanfoglio's pistols are also very popular in Israel being sold under the Mossad name.


On the right is my older Tanfoglio TZ75 compact in 9mm. It is one of my most accurate handguns but being all steel, it is heavy and a pain to carry all day.

[xl_target]

Chicago crime rate drops as concealed carry applications surge

City sees fewer homicides, robberies, burglaries, car thefts as Illinois residents take arms

An 86-year-old Illinois man with a concealed carry permit fired his weapon at an armed robbery suspect fleeing police last month, stopping the man in his tracks and allowing the police to make an arrest.

Law enforcement authorities described the man as “a model citizen” who “helped others avoid being victims” at an AT&T store outside Chicago where he witnessed the holdup. The man, whose identity was withheld from the press, prevented others from entering the store during the theft. Police said the robber harassed customers and pistol-whipped one.

Since Illinois started granting concealed carry permits this year, the number of robberies that have led to arrests in Chicago has declined 20 percent from last year, according to police department statistics. Reports of burglary and motor vehicle theft are down 20 percent and 26 percent, respectively. In the first quarter, the city’s homicide rate was at a 56-year low. “It isn’t any coincidence crime rates started to go down when concealed carry was permitted. Just the idea that the criminals don’t know who’s armed and who isn’t has a deterrence effect,” said Richard Pearson, executive director of the Illinois State Rifle Association. “The police department hasn’t changed a single tactic — they haven’t announced a shift in policy or of course — and yet you have these incredible numbers.”

As of July 29 the state had 83,183 applications for concealed carry and had issued 68,549 licenses. By the end of the year, Mr. Pearson estimates, 100,000 Illinois citizens will be packing. When Illinois began processing requests in January, gun training and shooting classes — which are required for the application — were filling up before the rifle association was able to schedule them, Mr. Pearson said.
“The temperature would be 40 below, and you’d have these guys out on the range, having to crack off the ice from their guns to see the target,” Mr. Pearson said. “But they’d do it, because they were that passionate about getting their license.”
The demand has slowed this summer, but Mr. Pearson expects the state to issue about 300,000 concealed carry permits when all is said and done.
Illinois became the 50th state in the nation to issue concealed weapons permits. An individual permit costs about $600 and requires at least 16 hours of classes.

The Chicago Police Department has credited better police work as a reason for the lower crime rates this year. Police Superintendent Garry F. McCarthy noted the confiscation of more than 1,300 illegal guns in the first three months of the year, better police training and “intelligent policing strategies.”
The Chicago Police Department didn’t respond to a request for comment from The Washington Times.

However, the impact of concealed carry can’t be dismissed. Instead of creating more crimes, which many gun control advocates warn, increased concealed carry rates have coincided with lower rates of crime.
A July study by the Crime Prevention Research Center found that 11.1 million Americans have permits to carry concealed weapons, a 147 percent increase from 4.5 million seven years ago. Meanwhile, homicide and other violent crime rates have dropped by 22 percent.
“There’s a lot of academic research that’s been done on this, and if you look at the peer-reviewed studies, the bottom line is a large majority find a benefit of concealed carry on crime rates — and, at worst, there’s no cost,” said John Lott Jr., president of the Crime Prevention Research Center based in Swarthmore, Pennsylvania. “You can deter criminals with longer prison sentences and penalties, but arming people with the right to defend themselves with a gun is also a deterrence.”

Within Illinois, Cook County, which encompasses Chicago, has the state’s largest number of concealed carry applications, with 28,552 requests, according to the county’s website. Accounting for population, however, less than 1 percent are carrying. Mason County has the top per-capita rate in Illinois, with 14 percent of its residents holding concealed carry licenses, followed by Shelby County, with 9 percent.
“When I talk to folks that are supporters of concealed carry here, a lot of them want to get their permits so they can keep a gun in the car just so they have it when they travel to bigger towns and cities,” said Shelby County Sheriff Michael Miller.
Shelby County is in southwestern Illinois, about an hour and 45 minutes driving time from St. Louis. Its crime rate is low, and the majority of charges are domestic-related, Sheriff Miller said. He doesn’t anticipate concealed carry to change the statistics much.

“These are folks who just want to exercise their Second Amendment rights,” Sheriff Miller said. “Luckily, we don’t have a gang problem or any serious violent crime. Our types are just rednecks that like to hunt and fish.”
Mason County Sheriff Paul Gann said it’s too early to tell whether an increased carry rate will have an influence on crime rates. “What I can tell you is we haven’t seen a spike in crime,” said Mr. Gann. “We haven’t seen a spike in anything that’s gun-related — brandishing a firearm, shootings, robberies, nothing. These are law-abiding individuals.”

From a national perspective, Florida has the most active concealed carry permits, at nearly 1.3 million. Texas is second, with just over 708,000. Hawaii, at 183, has the fewest of states whose data were available.
At 300,000 concealed carry licenses, Illinois would compare with Virginia, which has 363,274, and Alabama, with 379,917.


Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... z3CCZQibq5
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

The Chicago Police Department has credited better police work as a reason for the lower crime rates this year.

All I can say to the above statement is; "LMAO"!

[ckkalyan]

Very nice info there xl_target mostly encouraging (Chicago Gangsters are a pretty much discouraged lot now) and another view....the LMAO one! !

[TC]

Tanfoglio's pistols are also very popular in Israel being sold under the Mossad name.

Hi XL,
As far as I know the CZ 75 compact is made by Israel under the name " Massada "
and the full frame CZ75 that was first made in Israel was sold as the Jericho 941



TC