Muzzle loaders, powder, cap ball etc... some questions

[cottage cheese]

Hi Mehul,

I couldn't think of anyone more suitable to ask- If there are others on IFB who know, opinions and suggestions are welcome.

Based on a recent thread on the the subject of Muzzle loaders, Mehul inspired a kick-start of a long dormant interest I had- That of Muzzle loading.

That being the case, I plan to procure a muzzle loader as soon as my finances allow. I'm pretty involved in my friends gun shop and the shop has sold many Muzzle loaders (Indian made)over the years. The clientèle for muzzle loaders is 99% rural. As such, we get a lot of muskets back to the shop for major repairs! This is because of ignorance most of the time. The rural folk are known to load and over load the fragile Indian made muskets(all smooth bore) with an assortment of material which includes chopped Iron rods(!), stones, nuts, bolts, ball and of course quite often too much powder. Add to this a complete lack of gun care regimen... you'll know why most of our time is expended in repairing severely abused muskets.

Mehul, my little question is(Anybody can add)- From the strict perspective of Muskets available commercially in India, what would be your suggestions or advice on safe powder loads, powder measuring equipment, shot, caps, techniques, care and what ever else I'm missing on the subject of Muzzle Loaders?

The information here seems pretty scarce and the manufacturers don't seem to supply any useful data. The rural folk can't be depended on to provide usable 'safe' data.

Any help would be much appreciated. I think I can persuade some of my friends to get into muzzle loading for sport. We'll have to be content with thin walled smooth bores(SBML) though, since thats about all thats available in country.

BTW I didn't know where to post a thread on Muskets, and since this was to do with the powder and ball aspect of musketry...its in the ammo section.

Thanks

[penpusher]

Would it not be possible to get a seamless tube of better steel to replace the locally made stuff?

Sukhpreet

[Mark]

Cottage,

The traditional way here to determine a proper load for a gun was to put a round ball of the proper caliber in the palm of your hand and pour powder on it until the ball was covered.

What is the caliber or bore size? That will help a bit.

Also, would this be a percussion musket? If yes, how difficult is it to get caps?

[cottage cheese]

Cottage,

The traditional way here to determine a proper load for a gun was to put a round ball of the proper caliber in the palm of your hand and pour powder on it until the ball was covered.

What is the caliber or bore size? That will help a bit.

Also, would this be a percussion musket? If yes, how difficult is it to get caps?

Hi Mark,
Thanks for the prompt reply, just so there's not confusion along the way, hereforth, muzzle loaders I refer to in this thread will refer to the generic commercially available muzzle loaders available here in India and not the Konyak muskets I'd been yapping about with Mehul. In the case of the shop where I am involved, the muskets in question would be from a firm in Rajasthan- I can't seem to remember the brand name. I'll check in the shop tomorrow and let you know.

As I dimly recall the muskets are available in 12, 16 and 20 bore or something closely resembling so. I must also mention that the barrels tubing tends to be somewhat on the thinner side- closer to common 12ga barrels. So I guess hot loads are out of the question. The powder we sell is something the suppliers/manufacturers call silver-polished powder. Apparently this is supposed to burn a little more briskly than the regular black powder that is also available. I've never cared to find out. Perhaps This is a nice time to do so.

These are all percussion muskets and caps are no problem as this is commercially available subject to production of ones license. We sell these from the shop as well. We also take care to keep a healthy stock of nipples because these are the first things to pack up.

[cottage cheese]

Would it not be possible to get a seamless tube of better steel to replace the locally made stuff?

Sukhpreet

Hi Sukhpreet,

Thanks for the suggestion. I was thinking in the same lines. Only I feel this may go even further to deaden the already depleted tradition

Besides, with the manufacturing allowance barely tolerated by the government...I'm sure they will not take kindly to some one carting loads of industrial quality 'barrel' material to the village gunsmiths...

Nevertheless it remains an intriguing idea. Do you know of any good Seamless tubing maker or supplier?

After some watered down research I found, in the old days(At least during the days of the Raj) the Naga raiding parties often made forays into the tea gardens of upper Assam to 'shop'.... ie carry off some labourer heads and among many things, water pipes for making musket barrels.

The British, till then, saw no interest in the then untame Naga Hills. The raids on the tea gardens however was an issue that could not be ignored- They then launched punishment expeditions into the hills with columns of Assam Rifles(Which was the chief instrument of taming the wild east). As its so often an occurrence in colonial history, the Brits ended setting up administrative settlements in the Naga Hills... in a short time the Naga Hills became a district in Assam.

[penpusher]

Cottage Chese

I am not suggesting that you start manufacturing muzzle loaders.That would be illegal.However,for repair of guns any part can be manufactured including barrels.So if you know anybody who has a license to repair guns then you can get him to replace the barrel.Have no idea about anybody making seamless tubes.

Sukhpreet

PS-Curious House seems to manufacture good quality muzzle loaders according to Mehul.Might be worth a look.

[cottage cheese]

Cottage Chese

I am not suggesting that you start manufacturing muzzle loaders.That would be illegal.However,for repair of guns any part can be manufactured including barrels.So if you know anybody who has a license to repair guns then you can get him to replace the barrel.Have no idea about anybody making seamless tubes.

Sukhpreet

PS-Curious House seems to manufacture good quality muzzle loaders according to Mehul.Might be worth a look.

Hee hee!.. ya I get your point. If my friends license gets processed and transferred before we go senile... I'll probably get a musket or two strengthened- I hope you're sure about the legal implications!! What I'd really like is a heavy barrel type musket- something that's bored from stock and not tubing. An octagonal barrel would be perfect. I wonder if that would be allowable under current law(By a licensed repair party of course!)

I probably misunderstood your post- I thought you were referring to those Konyak Muskets!!

[eljefe]

Me to!
CC/Mark/SSS
Would love to have an octogonal barrel caplock.(Something like that Hawken your son is carrying in the pic with the buck, Mark)
I Remember that TC made some very decent looking ML rifles and the last post i had on Inline ML surprised the heck out of me when i checked out the stats -Awesome MV/ME for a ML
I havent the faintest idea of ML in India and if a market , even a niche one can be made, I would put my money where my mouth is...Rifled though!!

[cottage cheese]

eljefe...we like the same things...I wish someone in India actually made really nice muskets.

Mark,

Some more info I promised:

This is all I know, since my friend's shop been dealing with these for some years :

Two manufacturers - both from Udaipur Rajasthan,
1) M/S Abdul Hakim Usta(D)
2) MK Sikligar

As I found muzzle loaders are available in the following permutations;

Single Barrel Muzzle loaders:
32", 36", 39" Barrels , Half stock, Full stock, teen bandi (three bands?), full pahaldar (Dunno what this is)
All are available in 12, 14, 16, 20, 24 Bore

Double Barrel Muzzle Loaders:

32" barrels, half stock, full pahaldar, 12, 14, 16,20 bores.

Prices are pretty low starting at around Rs.2700! This is why they are really popular with the rural folk.

Hope this info is useful.

I'm sure there are other makers, but I'm pretty limited in my coverage so if anyone has more info to contribute, it'll be most welcome.

[Pran]

eljefe...we like the same things...I wish someone in India actually made really nice muskets.

Mark,

Some more info I promised:

This is all I know, since my friend's shop been dealing with these for some years :

Two manufacturers - both from Udaipur Rajasthan,
1) M/S Abdul Hakim Usta(D)
2) MK Sikligar

As I found muzzle loaders are available in the following permutations;

Single Barrel Muzzle loaders:
32", 36", 39" Barrels , Half stock, Full stock, teen bandi (three bands?), full pahaldar (Dunno what this is)
All are available in 12, 14, 16, 20, 24 Bore

Double Barrel Muzzle Loaders:

32" barrels, half stock, full pahaldar, 12, 14, 16,20 bores.

Prices are pretty low starting at around Rs.2700! This is why they are really popular with the rural folk.

Hope this info is useful.

I'm sure there are other makers, but I'm pretty limited in my coverage so if anyone has more info to contribute, it'll be most welcome.

CC,
Keep 'em coming.Have always loved MLs.Would like to know more about the ones being made in India.

Pran

[penpusher]

Make mine a Double barrel with rifled chokes.Indian Paradox

Sukhpreet

[mehulkamdar]

Cottage Cheese,

Until I hunted deer (unsucessfully as someone across the hills got the buck) at Mark's property in the winter of 2004, I had never even shot a muzzleloader. That year, I hunted with his 50 cal Percussion Hawken rifle and very soon, I was salivating for one. I didn't have to wait long as my wife bought me a KNight inline which I have owned since and shot a lot though I haven't been able to find time to hunt with it yet.

Working up a load for my rifle with Mark's advice and guidance was very easy and I now shoot 320 grain flat nose cast lead bullets that he makes for me with a 90 grain of 2F BP load. Haven't chronoed velocities yet but it is dead accurate and well below the safe limit recommended for my rifle - 100 grains of BP. This is a little faster than the 80 grain load that Mark uses in his own rifle, which is, itself, a standard that has accounted for tens of thousands of heads of game over the centuries. There are stronger muzzleloaders amde for much heavier loads but I don't have experience with them. I wouldn;t, however, recommend anything like this in an antique musket though there are modern muzzleloaders being made in India and sold abroad.

One company that you left out is a business whose products are very highly regarded outside India and the owner's son is a member here - Curious House. They do make doubles for all those who want a double shotgun/musket in 12 and 16 bore. No idea of prices etc but you could phone/e-mail Pradeep or his dad and check. Tell them Hi from me when you speak.

Sukhpreet,

I would not recommend any seamless or whatever kind of tube except for an established barrel steel for rebarreling a gun, even a muzzleloader. It could prove to be very dangerous t the shooter if something went wrong. Please be careful with what you do.

Asif,

The performance of the newest muzzleloaders is phenomenal. Now, if you gentlemen want performance with a traditional flair, don't look further than here. These rifles take loads upto 150 grains of BP and are very well made. You should be able to put out some very high performance with that kind of load.

Cheers!

[cottage cheese]

Hi Mehul,

I was begining to miss you!

Thanks for the input. Yes, Sukhpreet directed me to Curious House- your recommendation, he says.
I checked the website, and I must say the products seem very nice for something coming out of India. As you suggested I'll put in a call one of these days and see how things can go forward.

What is the IFG id of the gentleman from Curious House?

Personally, I like history so I'd like to pick up a full stock musket sometime- something akin to the Enfield Model 1853(Correct nomenclature I hope... ) ....maybe...or at least something that looks like it...and re-enact the 1857 uprising

Hell, I have no idea of Muzzle Loaders yet so I'm learning as I go along. I'm still waiting for Mark's or anyones' advice on safe loads of Indian Muskets.

[mehulkamdar]

Cottage Cheese,

I think Pradeep's ID here is Curious. The best thing to do would be to call him on the phone numbers at his website. They make several replicas including one two and three line Enfield replicas as well as the famous Charleville 1787.

IMO their double 12 bore percussion guns would be the best bet as they are practical and traditional if not strictly a military replica.

As far as loads are concerned, Curious House get their guns proofed at the Army proofing service and that would give you the details of the maximum load the guns are made for. As I have not seen one though I have heard a lot of good things about them, especially from a leading defence contractor in France, I am presuming that theya re very good guns.

Cheers!

[spacetraveller]

Cottage Cheese

Most ML guns in India have been picked up by collectors and now well looked after in the US or across Europe. They were not made to order and not much record was kept as they were meant for the lower end of the so called shooting pecking order. So if you come across a great ML gun British Belgian or even German it may have already done its time in India before landing in a clooection.
I have a small ML gun (20 gauge perhaps) probably meant for children learning to shoot.
One and a half to Two cms. of powder load (measured in the barell) is usually enough for a 12 bore sized 30 inch ML barell. Use dried cow dung as a wad instead of news paper for better results.

Spacetraveller