I got a .32 IOF Revolver Mark II from FGF Kanpur for 62,564

[HSharief]

I don't mean to brag or show any negative feelings but I feel sad that such a (poor) quality 32cal revolver costs about $1400. I am grateful for living where I am atleast when related to shooting/hunting. You can get a really good quality Ruger single six or S&W 22 for $300. Its really a sad state of affairs for the Indian sportsman and/or gun owner and I honestly sympathize.

Why don't sportspersons and gun owners "organize" to help the Netas make changes to the Indian gun laws to make it better for everyone ???

In my conversations with others when I asked why the "gun lobby" in India doesn't do anything about it, I heard people say that most people in the so called gun lobby who can do anything, like to be in a position of "power" so that lesser mortals will look up to them with respect and/or envy. To protect this position that helps feed their egos, they don't change a thing. Afterall, these people in power can afford the high expense of shooting and don't want to do much to make it affordable to the riff-raff.

Is this even correct ? What are the other reasons/excuses ? Like I always say, I've had crow before.

[Mack The Knife]

Sharief,

I for one would subscribe to that theory as one of the reasons. However, there are exceptions - Naveen Jindal for one.

However, I would say the main reason is the apathy of the Indian shooting enthusiast to his condition.

He/she may b**ch and moan about it but other than that nothing much gets done. Me included.

Mack The Knife

[maanmania]

I want to buy a handgun . Could be revolver or pistol . Budget is flexible upto 5 lakhs . Which one should I buy and from where . Which brand would be better ? is the kanpur made revolver fine ? Since almost all the dealers are big chea*s , i m totally confused . PLEASE HELP

[dev]

You can buy a smith&wesson or any phirang pistol or revolver for that kind of money. Just avoid the taurus automatics and walthers.

Dev

[mehulkamdar]

While it may appear that my friends Sharief and Mack The Knife's opinions are at two extremes. I do think that the case could be made that both views are two aspects of the same basic problem.

1. The organised shooting community in India so far, ie the NRAI, are a bunch of self satisfied and arrogant elitists who don't give a damn for the "hoi polloi" as they regard everyone beneath them. These are the people who - excceptions like Navin Jindal, the late Gobind Narain Singh, Dr Karni Singh etc excepted - have the power to effect change but will do nothing, perhaps, my suspicion suggests, because they would get soundly beaten in competition themselves. This is a fact that Sharief highlights very well

2. There are "lesser" shooters who, as Mack The Knife points out, complain but do not do anything. My question is, if they wanted to do something, could they? Sadly, the odds are stacked overwhelmingly against them in the political arena

There is something that could be done, though. And that is for Indian shooters to organise themselves. And for them to bring more and more new blood to our sports.Everyone of us has friends who do not shoot. We also have family who don't. We need to get more and more people to do this, to get people to buy sir rifles and get started shooting and for them to figure out for themselves how terrible the problems for law abiding shooters in India are. If this is done systematically, we could get the laws changed. India is a democracy and the one thing that opoliticians are terrified of is losing elections. If shooters' problems could be regularly publicised and if we could get more and more shooters to join our ranks, we could make a change.

Yes, we could do this at IFG itself. Just a year ago, when we began this forum, the number of page vioews a day used to be less than 100. Today, we number more than 10,000 a day especially after the Times of India wrote about our group. Earlier, CNN-IBN featured us and that, too, helped immensely.

Now, what we need, is for us to be featured in the vernacular media. With 13 major languages and a total of mroe than 800 languages in India, there are enough newspapers and magazines not to mention television channels where we need to get attention. When that happens, our numbers will grow. We will have more members and we would find our voices heard more and more. Tw0 people may shout together and not be heard. A million could whisper together and the sound would be deafening.

That is what we need to achieve and I hope that we would be able to do it. Abhijeet has started this forum with dedication that I cannot find enough words to praise with. Ifthe rest of us could use a little time, every time, to get some new person involved or interested in shooting, even if it is one person a year, we shall have a slowly increasing number.

That is how we shall win in the end.

There is absolutely no need for pessimism here. In 1857 our country was humiliated and more than 1.5 lakh of our bravest men hanged or blown to bits with cannons. In just 90 years, by carefully organising Indians, we were free after 250 years of colonial rule. If the world's most powerful empire could be defeated by organising people, I don't see why today's politicians, minnows as they are compared to the powerful nations and personalities of the past, cannot be made to change.

Cheers!

[HSharief]

So, where is the draft for the new 22nd Century Arms Act of India ? We can keep it all simple and do it in steps.

First step, lift the ban on importing guns and ammo for everyone who wants to, without limits, quotas or restrictions. The govt can make a modest fee

Second step I'd think is to remove the NPB/PB restrictions. If Law enforcement is scared, then they should ramp up their arsenal.

Third step will be to allow private Indian companies to manufacture guns, ammo and other supplies to supply local demand and maybe even export. We can make Prithvi and Agni but can't make a decent O/U.

Fourth step is encourage shooting sports by providing subsidies and better incentives to "qualified" shooters. Encourage companies to sponsor shooters, not just cricketers.

Please add your thoughts. That's all I can come up with for now. I'm sure we can come up with more items. Maybe just keep it short and simple and realistic.

Let it begin.....

[mundaire]

I'd like to add the following to Sharief's excellent suggestions -

1) Remove all ammo quota restrictions as well as the 3 gun limit

2) Remove "type specific" arms licenses - if someone has an arms license he/ she should be able to procure and keep any arm allowed for civilian ownership, in stead of issuing separate licenses for shotguns/ handguns/ rifles etc.

3) Remove the requirement of having an arms license to be able to shoot firearms at shooting ranges/ clubs - anyone should be able to go to a range, buy ammo and shoot.

4) Remove all restrictions on ownership of semi-auto/ self loading long arms (rifles/ shotguns)

5) Arms license applications should be APPROVED by default UNLESS the licensing authority can "show cause". This puts the onus/ burden of proof on the licensing authority as opposed to the applicant (which is how things stand today). This should help reduce corruption and nepotism in the licensing process.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[HSharief]

Abhijeet, your point #5 is what is called "Shall Issue" in the US if I'm correct.

Excellent, Excellent start. Now we should put this all together in legaleese and look into getting it put on the table in Parliament.

[Mack The Knife]

3) Remove the requirement of having an arms license to be able to shoot firearms at shooting ranges/ clubs - anyone should be able to go to a range, buy ammo and shoot.

Abhijeet,

One does not need an Arms Licence to shoot at the local ranges.

Mack The Knife

[mundaire]

Rusty,

Then I guess this varies from range to range - at Tuglaqabad they simply will not issue shotgun ammo unless you have an arms license... not much chance of shooting without ammo.... unless things have changed much since '94-'95, which I doubt very much...

Am not sure about their take on gun rentals...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Mack The Knife]

Then I guess this varies from range to range - at Tuglaqabad they simply will not issue shotgun ammo unless you have an arms license

Strange that should be the case and that too in Delhi. However, since we in Bangalore do not have such a rule I would assume that the Arms Act does not specify that one needs an Arms Licence to use club equipment, including ammo. Perhaps it is just one of the rules of the Tughlaqabad range.

Mack The Knife

[mehulkamdar]

Gentlemen,

Let me reiterate this - without numbers, any attempt at having pro gun laws passed in India is going to be stillborn. We simply do not have the numbers to vote the sport as the saying goes. I am completely in agreement with you on what needs t be done, but it is going to require a lot of hard work to get this the kind of publicity required.

1. We need vernacular newspapers and magazines to carry our views just like the English language media has done. The biggest newspapers in India are all vernacular ones - Dainik Jagran, Malayalam Manorama, Dinathanthi etc and someone needs to talk to them and get someone from there to do articles on our group like Abhijeet has painstakingly done with ToI and CNN-IBN. If someone is willing to do this, I could give names of people to contact - please PM me your contact details

2. We need to organise air rifle matches in communities where this kind of activity would not normally take place. We need to build our numbers up. This is what would win or lose the war for us

3. We need more women shooters and women members. The NRA, GoA and almost every shooting gorup in the USA have succeeded only because they have made an effort to bring women into the shooting community. As a rule women are better at organising themselves than men are, they are better shooters and they are also far more dedicated once they adopt a cause. We are, at the moment, an old boys' club and we do need to make sure that this state of affairs ends asap - without women shooters we would go nowhere, take my word

4. Some degree of clebrity endorsement would help, though I have zero idea of how to get started on this. The problems with this also are that Indian celebrities almost always seem to be on the wrong foot as far asthey and guns are concerned, but there must be exceptions. I just can;t believe that there are none

5. I do have friends in Delhi and have been talking to them about a legal challenge in the courts. Their singular advice to me has been in one word - don't. A very good friend asked me how long it would take a determined government to push through a law in Parliament even if we did manage to get a victory in the courts and won a temporary battle. Please remember that the late Gobind Narain Singh, a former CM of MP, even went to his grave fighting these unjust laws. If he, as a former CM could do nothing, there is bloody little that we could do - unless we have the numbers

It is not going to be easy and it is not going to happen in a day, a month or a year. But, if we work, this is a victory that could be achieved. At the end of a long struggle, success is always sweeter. If we remember this and work hard, we shall, in Dr Martin Luther King's immortal words, overcome